patrick.net

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us
lord ordered all women to wear burkah's - Taliban

>Now you are saying we need health care reform and complete wealth redistribution? Sounds UN a lot of things to me:
beginning with unConstitutional

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution.

renter for ever_san jose says

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us

lord ordered all women to wear burkah’s

Don't fight it, you know it to be true. We are not all born with the same gifts that is why you are so much more intelligent than ( -fill in the blank).

who care's if its unconstitutional....I only care if its the right thing or not.
nobody is asking for complete wealth distribution. you can earn whatever you want and keep it yourself and spend it . .you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn't earn it, you earned it.
that way everybody starts from the same level and reap the benefits of thier labor not because of some unfair advantage.

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution

Trickle down worked great in closed borders because the rich had to get services within border and thus part with thier money so everybody reaped the benefits..with globalization, the rich are getting services and labor from outside the countries so its not trickling down to US citizens..you saw how trickle down worked for the past decade ?right ?

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us

we are not born with property ..ok..its utter bullshit to assume that.

Austinhousingbubble says

>Now you are saying we need health care reform and complete wealth redistribution? Sounds UN a lot of things to me:

beginning with unConstitutional

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution.

I feel that "trickle down economics" is most often used to muddy the waters of real debate (by both the left and the right). It means little and adds little to this conversation. The rich always find a way to get richer, but that should not scare us as long as we have a Constitution which guarantees certain inalienable rights. In fact we should be happy to see our neighbor get rich. It means that there is hope for us too to prosper. And if he is our friend perhaps he will share his bounty with us as well (though we have no right to force or expect him to do so).

>.you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn’t earn it, you earned it.

Why? We don't have rights pass our wealth to whoever we choose?
Who decides this?

renter for ever_san jose says

who care’s if its unconstitutional….I only care if its the right thing or not.

nobody is asking for complete wealth distribution. you can earn whatever you want and keep it yourself and spend it . .you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn’t earn it, you earned it.

that way everybody starts from the same level and reap the benefits of thier labor not because of some unfair advantage.

This just plain doesn't make any sense. If I can spend my money any way I want when I am alive then if I die slowly I will have the opportunity to give all my possessions away before I die thus enabling me to cheat your dream of a system. But I am sure you have a great answer to that too right?

Why? We don’t have rights pass our wealth to whoever we choose?
Who decides this?

You have the same right as somebody else who has the right to take it away from you.

There is no logical reason for a person to have the right to pass on his property to someone else. you can pass on....personal stuff but not assets which belong to everybody else. land and capital is something which onces passed on to someone who didn't earn it, gives unfair advantage to them.

imagine a lion telling its cubs to stay away from a piece of forest when they grow up because that was passed on by an alpha lion to its cubs..do you think it will work.all lions have to earn thier alpha status not leech on to thier parents.

"This just plain doesn’t make any sense. If I can spend my money any way I want when I am alive then if I die slowly I will have the opportunity to give all my possessions away before I die thus enabling me to cheat your dream of a system. But I am sure you have a great answer to that too right?"

Thats why we have inheritance tax !! need to increase that rate soon.

people should earn thier own living after 21 years and anything they recieve after that age should be taxed.
We need GOOD public health and education to make sure all kids have equal oppurtunity.

Constitutionalist sez::

>>have to plagiarize from other posters

And there you go lying again. I explicitly attributed the malpractice cost to Kevin's post (and his link to the original data), which is what honest people do when they engage in scholarly writing. And you somehow want to imply there is fault in that.. Are you from some crazy Orwellian planet where right is wrong? I think you must be,.

>>but of course you would rather parse out percentages and call someone a liar rather than post an original damn idea or any research of your own.

Original damn idea? Research of your own? What on earth are you talking about? You're the one that pulled the 10% number out of your ass (which is an informal way of saying that you invented and fabricated the number to fit your own predetermined agenda). Is that what passes for "original research" in your universe? Phew. Shut up and go away, liar.

OTS sez:

>>Just Say No to socialism and tyranny, regardless of party affiliation.

What OTS is really trying to imply is that "if you are against tyranny, you must vote Republican, because our Republican tyrannts are better than the other ones".

This is utter baloney. Do not fall for this kind of tripe.

Paul Krugman on universal health insurance, an excellent article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html?src=twt&twt=nytimesopinion

Conclusion of the article:

"At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies."

some of right wing-nuts are the most hypocrite people i have ever seen.
they preach that everybody needs to earn everything on thier own and then when we mention banning inheritance, they start pissing in thier pants. they believe that thier kids don't need to do that ( earn it)

feel that “trickle down economics” is most often used to muddy the waters of real debate (by both the left and the right). It means little and adds little to this conversation.

In fact, I think I'm adding a drop or two of real conversation to otherwise muddy and stagnant waters.

The rich always find a way to get richer, but that should not scare us

Being scared wasn't my point. We should be pissed, because it is wealth redistribution - something you apparently loathe. Larceny and book cooking, the real engines behind a disproportionate part of the wealth created in this country over the last two decades, culminating in programs like TARP and PPIP, which are far more heinous and downright exploitative to the taxpayer than Obama's plan. Yet, you seem indifferent, at best.

as long as we have a Constitution which guarantees certain inalienable rights.

Just curious - what were your feelings on the Military Commission's Act? What I have learned is that rights are conceptual and surprisingly yielding to culture, climate and suggestion.

In fact we should be happy to see our neighbor get rich. It means that there is hope for us too to prosper.

Yes. And we too can hold up a nickel in the mirror and see ten cents with our big doe eyes.

And if he is our friend perhaps he will share his bounty with us as well (though we have no right to force or expect him to do so)

I put it to you that no person or corporation or government entity should be able to package and sell health care. If you are a citizen of this country, contributing to the GDP, (in this case, 2/3rds of the GDP is based on consumer spending alone - so you are a valuable component, even when doing something as simple as buying a Karl's Jr bacon burger) then it is clearly in the country's interest to insure these precious agents of GDP. Health care is not a discretionary expense. Biodegrading is a built-in phenomena of our design. Gotta keep the cogs greased, so they can keep generating revenues. Whether you like it or not, our current system is categorically absurd to its very core, and anything to shake up the status quo is welcome and overdue.

At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies"

I don't believe that all the voters are gullible..most people who oppose the bill are opposing because they know it well that the bill could change health care from market commodity ( which can be brought by money) to something which is rationed.IF I was not having problem with health care affordability and if i was rich , i would be opposed too...but then i am not the kind of person who believes that you get rich without the support of society !
you cannot be rich without somebody being poorer than you because rich is a relative term not absolute.

Austin,

I agree with you in many ways but lets clarify.

What I abhor is forced wealth redistribution such as when I against my will have to fund a federal government program not provided for in the Constitution. Selling a product or service and making a profit is not forced wealth redistribution (unless you are forced to purchase said product or service).

Larceny, and book cooking and any other illegal acts should be prosecuted.

People are more than cogs in a machine or workers in an economy. Yours and my value as a human being does not come from our ability to be productive in an economic sense. That kind of thinking will lead to many undesirable outcomes.

Selling a product or service and making a profit is not forced wealth redistribution (unless you are forced to purchase said product or service)
It is if you change public perception and prey on human flaws.most of the stuff thats sold in US now days is crap which people really don't need. I believe there are few industries which make real stuff that people need ( like farm produce..etc) everything else is bogus.
If you ban TV, movies and all media...80% of the crap in US won't even sell because its not stuff which people really need.

I agree with you in many ways but lets clarify.

What I abhor is forced wealth redistribution such as when I against my will have to fund a federal government program not provided for in the Constitution. Selling a product or service and making a profit is not forced wealth redistribution (unless you are forced to purchase said product or service).

This is the very thing they are doing with TARP and especially PPIP. PLEASE PLEASE do your research.

Larceny, and book cooking and any other illegal acts should be prosecuted.

Other than the odd head on a block to sate the public's teeth gnashing, Washington can't get out of its own way fast enough to open up a loophole here or cook up some policy there to help facilitate the exploits of Wall Street.

People are more than cogs in a machine or workers in an economy.

No, not really. Personally speaking, people are much more than mere apparatus, but compassion is a liability when it comes to industry, especially today. China's lowered the bar on what passes for human dignity and workers rights, and our subsidizing that culture as consumers is a vindication. We accept it, on some level. Did you know that airlines refer to you as self-loading cargo? You are but one in a million leavening agents, helping keep aloft this lead balloon, and therein lies your value to society. It's what makes you worth insuring. That is the order of the day.

Yours and my value as a human being does not come from our ability to be productive in an economic sense. That kind of thinking will lead to many undesirable outcomes.

I completely agree, and unfortunately, I think we are presently witness to many such outcomes.

Uh, the "voters" had nothing to do with the failure of the Clinton health plan.
It was an industry ad campaign that sank it--we never got a chance to vote on it.

>>Oh, so you mean there wasn’t any public outcry?

Tkimoro is twisting monkframe's words in classic right-wingnut fashion. And of course Tkimoro just joined 3 days ago.

OTZ sez:

>>I am not a Republican and did not even vote for McCain/Palin last year.

Then who did you vote for?

OTS sez

>> savages need a little extra push in the right direction from the government,

And I think you are indeed one of those savages that are badly in need of some government

On the Sidelines says

Londoneyrie says

What the rest of the industrialised world realises is that health is largely a matter of luck

Most Americans do not believe they should be forced to make sacrifices in their own lifestyle for the benefit of the “unlucky” people. Especially when so many of the “unlucky” people engage in unsavory activities that range from “merely unhealthy” to “unproductive” to “felonious and antisocial”. And definitely not after we’ve gone into debt to give them trillions of dollars of welfare freebies for over 40 years. Nuhhhhh uh, homie don’t play dat.
You make do with what God gave you. Self-reliance and personal responsibility — that’s the American way.

Forgive the schoolmarm tone but a lot of this seems to defy fundamental logic.

I expected to be called an unpatriotic commie pinko for supporting the state-run system here in the UK, but the fact remains that it does for the most part an excellent job providing healthcare for all who need it and it is cheaper to run overall than the current private insurance based system in the US. The fact that my taxes here support healthcare for the 'unlucky' means that it will be there for me and mine if we are so unfortunate as to become 'unlucky' ourselves. What more 'insurance' do I need? What more 'choice' could I want? Shit can happen to anyone, no matter what their habits - clean living and even paying into your private plan may not save you from going to the wall (or gutter) financially when something serious like cancer or a car accident happens.

I certainly try to make the best of what God gave me, but see no reason in sitting on those gifts like a dog in a manger if I have enough to share, which I do. Jesus also tells us to do unto others as we would would be done by, and to show compassion for those less fortunate than ourselves. Not because this is an abstract 'good thing', but because it is ultimately in our own self-interest. Maybe Europeans understand this better than American private-insurance supporters because they experienced the randomness of personal misfortune on a grand scale and had to help each other rebuild after WWII.

In the UK I can go direct to my doctor's office, we discuss the care I need, and she'll arrange with other parts of the health service if necessary to make sure I get it. Sometimes there's a wait, but at least neither I nor my doctor do not then also have to argue with an insurance company to get them to pay up first. Sometimes there are a few rare treatments available (to the well-off) in the US not available on the NHS here, this is true, but the state in no way stands between me and my doctor, nor between my doctor and the treatments she thinks I needs in anything like the way insurance companies in the States routinely interfere.

But calling up facts seems a bit futile for some. Here is a cartoon to illustrate what I am talking about:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/cartoons/gallery/73366-a73672-t3.html

The US (and unfortunately the UK as well) has gone trillions of dollars into debt to kill hundreds of thousands in a war (at over £2 trillion - http://www.nytimes.com/cfr/world/slot3_20080204.html?_r=1&ref=world - twice the amount for social security and medicaid, etc) and to give freebies to the the banks (half the amount of SS so far, but with obligations to cover toxic debts which could amount to another £2 trillion an upwards). With another trillion and a half covering all the other government functions and paying interest on the debt, there's where your money goes.

if you're looking to vent on people taking the government dime who "engage in unsavory activities that range from “merely unhealthy” to “unproductive” to “felonious and antisocial" look no further than Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan. They're the real welfare bums - and they're not eeking life out on food stamps, they've bought yachts with your money.

12 Alternatives to Obamacare for socialists to ignore and attack.

http://www.businessinsider.com/12-alternatives-to-obamacare-2009-8

Austinhousingbubble says

I agree with you in many ways but lets clarify.

What I abhor is forced wealth redistribution such as when I against my will have to fund a federal government program not provided for in the Constitution. Selling a product or service and making a profit is not forced wealth redistribution (unless you are forced to purchase said product or service).

This is the very thing they are doing with TARP and especially PPIP. PLEASE PLEASE do your research.

Larceny, and book cooking and any other illegal acts should be prosecuted.

Other than the odd head on a block to sate the public’s teeth gnashing, Washington can’t get out of its own way fast enough to open up a loophole here or cook up some policy there to help facilitate the exploits of Wall Street.

People are more than cogs in a machine or workers in an economy.

No, not really. Personally speaking, people are much more than mere apparatus, but compassion is a liability when it comes to industry, especially today. China’s lowered the bar on what passes for human dignity and workers rights, and our subsidizing that culture as consumers is a vindication. We accept it, on some level. Did you know that airlines refer to you as self-loading cargo? You are but one in a million leavening agents, helping keep aloft this lead balloon, and therein lies your value to society. It’s what makes you worth insuring. That is the order of the day.

Yours and my value as a human being does not come from our ability to be productive in an economic sense. That kind of thinking will lead to many undesirable outcomes.

I completely agree, and unfortunately, I think we are presently witness to many such outcomes.

Really, that is your counter-argument? I didn't support tarp, the American people called their congressmen 10 to one against tarp, in fact I don't think anyone here including Patrick supported TARP. PLEASE PLEASE Don't waste my time and yours on this.

Besides saying we are already semi-fasco-socialistic so why not become full blown socialists is like saying I already smoke a pack a day so why not smoke 2? Kinda flawed logic me thinks.

I agree with you on Wall street. They run the government and together they are parasites on our free society. The easiest way to kill the parasites is to enforce the law of the land the Constitution.

Vote third party or independent in the upcoming elections and educate yourself on Mises.com

An excellent diagnosis of America's health care written by a liberty loving physician.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=172

>>It’s so proud to have commented NINETEEN HUNDRED AND FORTY NINE TIMES!!!

That's because I didn't just join last week, like you, but rather 3 years ago.

OTS spews

>>Chuck Baldwin. Not that it’s any of your God damned business.

Is it safe to assume that he also favor Robber Barons over "Moral busybodies"?

>>Are you coming on to me?

No thanks. Maybe you should check with Ann Coulter. I heard she gets off on racist jerks.

2ndClassCitizen says

An excellent diagnosis of America’s health care written by a liberty loving physician.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=172

I'm sorry, but anyone who gives legitimacy to homeopathy should not be listened to, and I seriously question the professional judgement of any physician who supports such utter bullshit.

The claims about the quality of medical care for the first 120 years of the united states are highly suspect (never mind that most of the practices mentioned have only been popular for the last 50 years or so). You can't just say "it was better" without offering a single fact to back up the opinion.

The campaign for liberty site actually does have some well reasoned articles on a free market approach to health care, but this isn't one of them.

tkimoro,

5 posts and already out of substance. I'm drawing my own conclusions.

For those of you who want to see how business is done in Washington, there's a good article in Business Week entitled: "The Health Care Industry has already Won".
It details how lobbying is done by the bloodsucking health insurance companies whose business it is to deny claims.
How anyone would want a profit-motivated capitalist industry to control people's health care is beyond understanding.
Is your health a right under the constitution, or is profit more important?
Wake up people!

monkframe says

For those of you who want to see how business is done in Washington, there’s a good article in Business Week entitled: “The Health Care Industry has already Won”.

It details how lobbying is done by the bloodsucking health insurance companies whose business it is to deny claims.

How anyone would want a profit-motivated capitalist industry to control people’s health care is beyond understanding.

Is your health a right under the constitution, or is profit more important?

Wake up people!

If health was a right under the constitution a lot of things would be different, you could argue that Budweiser, McDonalds and Camel are are unconstitutional IF health was a right. Health is not a right but freedom is. Including the freedom to be stupid and destroy your own health.

Really, that is your counter-argument?

More a plea to reason. I'm asking you and other highly-opinionated blowhards to learn to better aim your bluster. Save your energy for something worth hurling yourself at. The health care debate is a cock & bull show that keeps your awareness just enough diverted from the real sleight of hand.

I didn’t support tarp, the American people called their congressmen 10 to one against tarp, in fact I don’t think anyone here including Patrick supported TARP. PLEASE PLEASE Don’t waste my time and yours on this.

Where are those numbers from, by the way? 10 to one? Are you referring to first draft of TARP from September which was shit canned because it didn't have enough pork? Reality: People were effectively frightened into believing that there would be a total utter collapse of our credit/banking system leading to pell-mell, payroll freezes and blackouts. It worked. I remember talks of ammunition, water and gold, but I most certainly don't recall you or anyone else posting up a storm on here about it then or now. And again, HOWABOUT PPIP? Or Cap and Trade? The fact that you have tiptoed around all of these landmines to focus ad infinitum on the health care debate can suggest only one thing: that you have some personal/financial interest in the heath care community or branch thereof.

Besides saying we are already semi-fasco-socialistic so why not become full blown socialists is like saying I already smoke a pack a day so why not smoke 2? Kinda flawed logic me thinks.

Don't infer two dollars worth of windbaggery from my modest two-cents...

...then again, why not? Since, as you suggest, we are one rung away from full blown socialists, isn't it about time we enjoy some of the benefits that other socialist systems do - like guaranteed health care!

I agree with you on Wall street. They run the government and together they are parasites on our free society. The easiest way to kill the parasites is to enforce the law of the land the Constitution. Vote third party or independent in the upcoming elections and educate yourself on Mises.com

Yeah, an escapist vote. That'll fix everything.

Again, your intransigence on this subject seems rooted in some kind of vested interest, which makes any debate meaningless. You seem only to run interference against wholly valid but separate viewpoints. You've offered nothing, really. For example, one of your big gripes is wealth redistribution - but when when I point out how this is not a unique phenomena, and cite Trickle Down as a different model of wealth redistribution, you offer no substantive retort. You have also failed to illustrate how - as a revenue generating citizen, contributing to the GDP as you do - you are an asset NOT worth insuring? Forget grander themes of dignity and the idea that access to health care is an intrinsic human right on the most basic level. You are a valuable asset to society, and you are in better shape to spend when you are able-bodied than when you are laid up. In fact, you make up 2/3rds of our GDP. We need you. Indeed, take a break from commenting and go buy something on Amazon. Do your part, you good American!

monkframe says

How anyone would want a profit-motivated capitalist industry to control people’s health care is beyond understanding.

Is it really "beyond understanding"? The argument from rational and intelligent free marketers is easy to understand (as opposed to people shouting "socialism" who don't even know what the term means), even if you disagree with it. As many holes as there are in free market economics, the basic principal is provably better than the alternative for most applications.

monkframe says

Is your health a right under the constitution, or is profit more important?

Your health is not, and could not possibly be a "right", unless you have a very strange interpretation of the 10th amendment.

You could argue that we all have a right to health care under the fairness doctrine (as exhibited by the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment), but that's a lot different from a right to "health". That's getting pretty esoteric, though, and it's a pointless argument. The constitution is a framework for our legal system. It is a document that outlines what the government can and can not do, and that's about it. Using the constitution to defend some moral argument is dumb. The constitution is just a stronger form of law, not the word of God.

If health was a right under the constitution a lot of things would be different, you could argue that Budweiser, McDonalds and Camel are are unconstitutional IF health was a right. Health is not a right but freedom is. Including the freedom to be stupid and destroy your own health.

That stupidity you so loathe is vice - a major component of wealth generation in a country in desperate need of revenues. McDonalds and Philip Morris are MAJOR industries/contributors to our GDP in the non-durable goods sector! Careful where you tread. If people are buying up ciggys and burgers, it's commerce, and good news for everybody.

...and while we're at it, quit deifying the authors of the Constitution. They were men, and as such, they were fallible. That's where amendments come in, and even repealed amendments. Think of the Constitution as the king of all boilerplates.

>> …and while we’re at it, quit deifying the authors of the Constitution.

Right on. Austin.

I find all the Constitutional Worshipping trite and counterproductive. They way some people talk about constitutional matters, you'd think Moses had descended from a mountain with the wording hacked into stone tablets, on direct orders from God.

There is no law against being a Constitutional Fundamentalist, in fact I think the constitution explicitly does the right thing and protects anyone's right to be one.

But there is a distinct limit to the usefulness of always being stuck in 1787. We have amendments for a reason, namely to provide for improvement.

OTS:

>>The one change I would make is to ban slavery. That was a HUGE mistake.

Coming from OTS, this sounded much to reasonable to be true. So I must question his motivation.
Don't leave us hanging, tell us why!

My guess: Without slavery there would be fewer Africans in the US, which is what YOU would like?