patrick.net

You aught to see the house my brother owns. It's this teeny 2 bedroom deal built after the war. The kitchen houses the fridge, oven, microwave, washer, dryer, and everything else that's of that nature. The washer buts right up next to the oven. The bathroom has dining room fixtures screwed to the walls. The living room has this huge window that all the world can see right through.
but... he paid 46k for the whole thing, and he's 5 years younger than me!

WWII,

It's actually a ship's wheel. You know, for the "nautical" theme. The glass lightbulb enclsoures look like fog lamps. You'd love it.

They also have these giant wooden salad spoons affixed to the dining room wall. They like Aztec sculptures. Picture a totem pole made out of Aztec dieties with a spoon or fork on one end. Those things are family heirlooms that will never be sold. I've seen a lot of kitsch in my time, being from the blue collar Midwest and all, but nothing tops those salad spoons.

Randy,

Nothing wrong with lots of bathrooms.

Numerous members of my family (who've moved out of the old abode and into 2+ bathroom apartments) have dramatically changed their behavior. Reading and talking on the phone has become the norm, and they're showering daily now as opposed to bimonthly.

Though, the lack of first floor bathrooms is another one of my complaints about McMansions. Most of the smaller ones have only a half bathroom for the entire first floor, which means that on the rare occasion when the owners might entertain some people on the first floor public rooms, the guests have to trek to the private second floor bathrooms just to relieve themselves.

Joe Schmoe,

I was going to add a counter criticism that you covered. Tract homes quite often are more wasteful per land usage than McMansions. Most McMansions are not replacements within existing communities, but new developements. New developments inevitably have smaller lot sizes, and more inhabitable square footage on that land. There are lots of 2BR homes on tracts that have massive back yards and detached garages. A McMansion on 70% of the lot space can support 5BRs.

This is problem with comparative qualifying statements like too wasteful.

True also about the evolution of Brownstones and Graystones. In Chicago, pretty much all the Northside B/Gstones were SFHs when built. Over the years they converted to 3/4 family dwellings. When people in Lincoln Park started to buy those out and restore them as SFHs there was a holy hissy fit from the urban environmentalists about wasteful consumption, etc. I always found it funny that these same people showed up to oppose "Six-Pack" developments, which were condos of 6 units laid lengthwise across 2 city lots, usually replacing dilapidated row homes in gentrifying neighborhoods. Urban NIMBYism: call whatever you don't fancy "wasteful".

goober,

Ugh, sorry. At 18 I was going through my existentialist crises and doing all I can to avoid the light and other people :) Economics and critiques of American consumerism would have been the farthest thing on my mind.

The house where I spent the first 8 years of my life had one toilet for 2 kids and 7 adults. I’ve lived most of the next 10 years with 2 adults and one bathroom. We managed, somehow.

Wow. I can use two toilets myself.

Most of the smaller ones have only a half bathroom for the entire first floor, which means that on the rare occasion when the owners might entertain some people on the first floor public rooms, the guests have to trek to the private second floor bathrooms just to relieve themselves.

A half bath ought to be enough for floors without bedrooms.

They should also build homes with a dedicated cat litter room. It needs a cat door and a powerful, energy-saving, long-running exhaust fan.

The giant salad spoons in my grandparent's house had distorted 'pa and 'ma faces painted on them. Always gave me nightmares, along with all those damned little figurenes hiding in every single damned nook & cranny.

Goob,

Tread lightly on the personal provocations. Thanks.

Joe,
Our house had yellow appliances. Actually, I guess they were "autumn gold".To continue the theme, we had metallic gold carpet, yellow painted walls, and get this- the exterior was chocolate brown. My grandmother had those same huge wooden spoons in the kitchen. she later gave them to me, which I used as "decoration" inside my clubhouse. She also had these freaky looking pictures hanging up in the hallway. They were velvet paintings of precious moments looking children walking to go fishing. There were also lots of glass chickens in the kitchen. They were sort of abstract and painted strange colors- like green and orange. One of my friend's uncle had this plastic outhouse that sat on their toilet. If you opened the door to it, a little plastic clown would piss all over you. Hilarious.
It's funny to think about that stuff because out here, the stuff sells for a MINT. The ugly fake hide lamps shaped like flying saucers, figurines, and fake vinyl furniture all sell for oodles. Back home, people give it away. I've thought there aught to be an "import" business to ship it out here for all the yuppies to slobber over and buy. I'll be stinkin' rich!

Randy,

I hope I've established to your satisfaction that I'm not anti McMansions and McMansion-dwellers (cough in Mill Valley cough), I just think they're a very imperfect solution.

McMansions do use less land than older houses. But given that they give their owners basically no usable lot, the builders would do better just to build large 2 garage townhouses and insert good sound insulation between the houses.

BTW, I do agree with you that NIMBY zoning codes and zoning boards bear much of the blame for many of these unhappy solutions to a real need for more and better housing.

ww2,

I can set you up with a nearly inexhaustible supplier of those goods if you're serious. All you need are a couple of retired garage-sale hounds in the Ohio/Indiana borderlands.

Randy,

It's fine, goober likes to poke fun at how young I am. But I'm probably just 2 or 3 years younger than Peter P and WWII. Hell, I'm even older than Conor.

WWII,

And you say IKEA was bad taste! ;)

For the record, I do rent a McMansion in Mill Valley. I emphasize rent.

I've never lived in one of these before. I can sum up the positives:

* Plenty of bathrooms.

I can sum up the negatives:

* Tacky and cheap.

Hey, the rent is way below my theoretical PITI - tax deduction + alternate investment return - inflation - expected appreciation.

(All our pipes just started humming and whistling a couple of weeks ago too; oh the joys of renting from a clueless Specuvestor).

goober,

BTW, my main problem with kids is non of those things. I just can't justify their costs v. their potential utility. If my boyfriend ever hit it big in hedge fund management, I'll be happy to conside 2, 3, or even 4 kids.

OFGS, you're making me feel ancient. And I'm not even a Boomer, just on the leading edge of X.

Randy,
While I don't rent a Mcmansion, the house I rent is pretty old( 1916) but was more recently renovated. The only bad thing about is the shower, which is a sheet plastic liner that I've had to caulk several times already. If I ever get my own place, this will be the only place I'll spend the money. Tile all the way- either that or vintage stuff. The plastic sheeting has got to go.

(disclaimer: his IB higher level math 7 notwithstanding, my boyfriend profess absolutely no interest in money management, corporate law, management consulting, or anything else that would result in big money -- it's pretty much a hopeless situation)

Randy,

I know, that's why I said dweller;) Sorry. If I was in your situation, I'd do exactly the same thing.

PS - Randy, that's not my job anymore. That's Conor's job.

If I was in your situation, I’d do exactly the same thing.

I'm not sure I would. But I'm existential about such things.

I don't have a problem with McMansions, it is just a style of home like Victorian or Colonial. Many 1900 era Victorians around here (VA) are McMansion sized, 3,000 sqft or more. They seem to be quality built, but that may be from original construction or from renovation.

If someone has saved his money and wants the benefits of lots of space, I see no problem. I just have a distaste for a McMansion Heights whole neighborhood of fiscal fools pushing a facade of wealth, inhabited by the couple so stretched out financially that wife yells at husband for wasting money on a candy bar. No problem with a new Expedition though.

Oh. so this is "McMansions are not bad" thread. Just a few threads ago they were bad.

I like McMansions. I do not like the 40 year old floor plans in Cupertino at all. In every such house the first thing you notice after entry is kitchen ! There is nothing pretty, classy etc about these plans.

I need big kitchen, big bathroom and a big room for a big TV. Rest is too subtle for me.

Astrid says:

The house where I spent the first 8 years of my life had one toilet for 2 kids and 7 adults. I’ve lived most of the next 10 years with 2 adults and one bathroom. We managed, somehow

In the '60s when we were at my grandparents house in central VA, we had to take a bath in a steel tub with well water heated in a kettle on a cast iron stove. The toilet was an outhouse 50 yards from the house. However, nothing beats the fresh eggs we gathered from the henhouse, or the fresh veggies from the garden (no pesticides). Also, nothing beats the taste of water from that well. We also used kerosene lamps since they did not get electricity until the 70s. None of us live like that today, of course, but the place was great fun during extended family gatherings.

SP,

I don't completely agree with you. I know people who can afford the "real thing" but chose not to. Sometimes, it's just not efficient to spend $100K on a deck, even if you're extremely wealthy. If a knock off Gucci bag will satisfy the social pressures without spending the money on a real Gucci bag.

SP,

Do you still smell like elephant piss?

Cheers!

Headset,

My first home was not a matter of eccentric grandparents. The house I lived in didn't get indoor plumbing until the late 1970s. Even now, there are legal residents (as opposed to slum dwellers) in Shanghai who don't have indoor plumbing and are forced to use waste buckets and public latrines.

I guess I have a tendancy to mildly mock Peter P's (and maybe my own) sybaritic tastes and expectations.

SP,

Good grief, did you memorize all the Monty Python episodes?

SQT says,

I live in what some here would refer to as a stucco $hitbox, but frankly I like it. It’s almost 2000 sqft with an excellent floorplan.

Who would call that a $hitbox? That sounds like a practical, desireable home. Especially if it is paid for or has a low financial drain.

There's something to be said for imitation and the " real thing" For example, one of my hubcaps came off my toyota truck. It is 11 years old, and the dealership wanted $75 PER HUBCAP! So.. I went to Kragen and bought a box of 4 fake plastic chrome hubcaps for $30. Ghetto. Nothing else describes the way my truck looks now. Anyone can tell that those "rims" on my truck are cheapo plastic. It doesn't feel or look cool at all. That's the same way I feel about fake wood and cheapy interiors on some of these massive houses.

Astrid,

I hope you don't think I was implying you had eccentric grandparents. I assumed your grandparents lived how they lived for the same reasons mine did - economics.

SQT,

As long as a home provides value to its owner and/or resident, it's fine. There are huge multi-million dollar homes in Jackson Hole that gets use 2 weeks a year, but if money is no object and the primary value is to boast of a Jackson Hole home, then more power to them.

What I object to is that general uselessness of houses built btwn 2000 and now. They sell an imagine of high quality and high class but are actually poorly designed and shoddily built. Their owner will quickly discover just how quickly those two facts will conspire to deflate the value of their house.

Headset,

At least you got fresh vegetables and eggs. We had food rationing for the entire time I was in Shanghai. ;)

(to SP, ugh, sorry. Last time, I promise.)

I'm fairly agnostic on "McMansions" as a contemporary style/class of tract homes, however one chooses to define them. However, depending upon the specific builder/location, there is some valid criticism out there in terms of poor construction quality, needless use of sub-par materials and inefficient use of space, poor design issues, etc. That said, the main issue to me isn't the style of housing being built, it's the insane valuations and financing used in this part of the country.

There are some viable alternatives out there for non-rich hard-core D-I-Y types who want a truly custom-built house, without having to pay $millions to have a world-famous architect build the thing for you: straw-bale, adobe, rammed earth/cobb, etc. The possibilities are limitless, assuming you have the necessary skills, time and willpower to see it through (which few people have).

I like McMansions. I do not like the 40 year old floor plans in Cupertino at all. In every such house the first thing you notice after entry is kitchen ! There is nothing pretty, classy etc about these plans.

I need big kitchen, big bathroom and a big room for a big TV. Rest is too subtle for me.

Same here. I like a big master bathroom with tub, separate shower, and separate toilet stall. If I cannot spin around freely with my arms fully extended, the bathroom is too small.

SP,

Very few people in this world are truly indifferent to cost and most of the world does hold some value for perception of prestige. Thus, I do not discount such behavior outright but measure for durability of such perception under duress.

If we go solely by actual usefulness of goods, most luxury goods makers would go bankrupt very quickly.

SQT,

It just sounds like you found a home you're happy with, and that's really more important than anything else.

Peter P,

One of these days I will create a thread called "build the perfect house for Peter P." You just wait!

If we go solely by actual usefulness of goods, most luxury goods makers would go bankrupt very quickly.

True. I enjoy luxury food very much. But it gets turned into human waste just as quickly as normal food. :(

Perhaps I should condition myself into hating good food.

Maybe there is something to Feng Shui.

Absolutely.

Peter P,

I think my analogy would be for you to trick your mind into believing that PB&J sandwich tastes like toro and $2/lb hamburger tastes like Kobe beef.