patrick.net

TechGromit says

If they can get a multimillion dollar award for a lady that burns herself with a obviously hot cup of coffee

I for one think the $3M award (mostly punitive damages) was entirely correct. "Obviously hot" is different from "unnecessarily dangerously hot".

It's a small thing, but elemental product safety requirements is what separates us from China, and we get product safety by penalizing those who cut the corners on it.

krav says

...

(4) In case the we know who actually come up with a lawsuit ...

Oh there's going to be a lawsuit, now that you come to there attention, they are not going to just ignore you. There may be another strongly worded letter from one of there lawyers asking you to cease and desist, but after that they will file court papers. It might be as long as a month or two, but the suit is a coming.

Rightous or not this is going to COST YOU ALOT.

Come to your senses and just change Realtors® to Real estate agents in your logo.

Patrick,

I would also look at this from a PR standpoint. If the general media got wind of this, I could see the Realtors Association backing down out of embarrassment. This story of the little guy versus mean big corporation I think would be well suited to MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan, Ed Schultz or Keith Olberman shows. Keep up the good work. SJ

TechGromit says

Come to your senses and just change Realtors to Real estate agents in your logo.

Or just be even more vague and say "Real estate fucks".

I just want to know what I legally HAVE to do.

I'm pretty sure I don't have to remove all mention of the very group I'm criticising. But maybe I have to put the little trademark symbol after their name, though I'm not too sure about that either. Most websites do not, even big ones. Just google realtor for news. :-)

I have now asked a lawyer, via a reader who forwarded my email to him.

Patrick,
Personally, I've always felt a little uncomfortable with the across the board attack on "Realtors" by most on this site as if all "Realtors" are corrupt, etc. The National Assoc. of Realtors, whether you agree with this premise or not, maintains that their primary purpose is to regulate their members according to their Code of Ethics. Attacks on their integrity as an organization is not going to be taken lightly because it strikes at the very heart of their existence. This organization also happens to be one of the largest lobbies in Washington, which translates into a lot of money behind them. I would strongly advise you to follow their directions and would even go to the extent of eliminating the use of that trademark in posts and threads. Furthermore, as a registered trademark, there is no such thing as a generic use. IMO, this is not a Constitutional issue at all. Trademark laws are in existence for a purpose and I am sure, based on the attorney’s letter to you, they are serious about protecting their trademark.

swj2009 says

Patrick,
I would also look at this from a PR standpoint. If the general media got wind of this, I could see the Realtors Association backing down out of embarrassment. This story of the little guy versus mean big corporation I think would be well suited to MSNBC’s Dylan Ratigan, Ed Schultz or Keith Olberman shows. Keep up the good work. SJ

Yea sort of like Monster Cables.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/09/monster-cable-learns-nothing-sues-monster-transmission/

http://consumerist.com/2008/12/monster-cable-sues-monster-minigolf-for-trademark-infringement.html

Monster Cable has also sued the following companies:

* Discovery Channel for Monster Garage
* Disney for Monsters, Inc
* Bally Gaming International Inc. for its Monster Slots.
* Hansen Beverage Co. for a Monster Energy drink.
* The Chicago Bears, whose nickname is Monsters of the Midway.
* MonsterVintage.com
* Monster.com

Don't put too much stock in Negative PR. If the NAR want to protect there copyrighted trademark, they HAVE to sue, popular or not.

I agree with TechGromit and RayAmerica. Just change "realtors" to "real estate agents" and call it good. There are too many other things to report and focus on than dealing with a bunch of legal bullcraptasticalness.

Patrick,
Along with CrowsAreSmart and others, I urge you to change your logo; however, I prefer used home salesperson. If not, you should use the term REALTORS®, and be prepared to cite specific cases in your defense. That's where it could get tricky (and would probably not be worth your time). It certainly would be fun to watch, and given the reach of the site, you probably could come up with enough cases to make your point. A lot, though, would be 'he said, she said', which still means you could lose...

CrowsAreSmart says

.... bunch of legal bullcraptasticalness.

Please note I hold the trademark for the word "bullcraptasticalness®" please cease and desist all future usage of the word.

Thank you.

EBGuy says

... I prefer used home salesperson.

So who sells the new homes than?

Patrick, call on the ACLU.

I have to wonder if they have a valid request due to the "What's It Really Worth?" tool. It might be argued that with it this site is stepping into their realm and is no logger just a site commenting on the real estate industry from the outside.

Hi Patrick, Take it from some one who has been there. This is not our fathers' legal system. It's more like the proverbial 'tar baby'. You touch it and you get slimed. Avoid the 'judicial' system while you continue to get the truth out .

RayAmerica says

The National Assoc. of Realtors, whether you agree with this premise or not, maintains that their primary purpose is to regulate their members according to their Code of Ethics.

Do you really believe this code of ethics is there to promote ethical activity? Or perhaps it's there so that they can promote unethical activity while pointing at the code and saying "look at our code of ethics!"

NAR is a monopoly, a cartel, a promoter of disingenuous propaganda, and a lobbying force hellbent on screwing over the public and the taxpayers to reward themselves with economically indefensible legislation (ex: first time homebuyer tax credit).

Did you know they just lobbied GSEs, FHA, and Fannie/Freddie to loosen their lending requirements on borrowers? They are pushing for the riskiest loan makers/backers to be even riskier, at a cost to taxpayers, just to load their commission base. There is nothing ethical about that organization. They are bullies, thieves, and criminals. They're the scum of the Earth.

Attacks on their integrity as an organization is not going to be taken lightly because it strikes at the very heart of their existence.

Their insecurity speaks mountainloads about what a corrupt bunch of worthless fucks they are. No organization with any actual integrity worth a lick would be so hostile towards people expressing their opinions about them.

klarek says

Do you really believe this code of ethics is there to promote ethical activity? Or perhaps it’s there so that they can promote unethical activity while pointing at the code and saying “look at our code of ethics!”

That's their stated purpose. What we believe is their motive is a moot point. I don't think they are going to take attacks on their organization lightly and may resort to legal means (trademark violations, etc.) against Patrick in order to stop the attacks.

TechGromit says

CrowsAreSmart says

…. bunch of legal bullcraptasticalness.

Please note I hold the trademark for the word “bullcraptasticalness®” please cease and desist all future usage of the word.
Thank you.
EBGuy says

… I prefer used home salesperson.

So who sells the new homes than?

LOL :-]

Expat says

I have just trademarked all the letters of the alphabet.

I® |Ìk®è t®h®Ät®.

I claim all the special Characters, so any use of ® or © will result in legal action.

RayAmerica says

That’s their stated purpose. What we believe is their motive is a moot point.

It's not moot. Their objectives are very clear despite not being overt. They promote their own interests through cartel-like monopolistic control and influence. Their "ethics" are a massive joke.

RayAmerica says

I don’t think they are going to take attacks on their organization lightly and may resort to legal means (trademark violations, etc.) against Patrick in order to stop the attacks.

What attacks? Is it an attack for me to call the Oregon xmas tree bomber or Times Square bomber terrorists? It is an attack for me to call Tom Delay corrupt? How is calling NAR for what they are an attack? Patrick is being targeted for publicly calling them out on what they are and what they represent.

Expat says

I’ll sue you for that, too!

Sorry I've patented the act of suing for trademark violations, so you have no redress until my patent runs out in 2032.

TechGromit says

Expat says

I have just trademarked all the letters of the alphabet.

I® l®i®k®e® t®h®a®t®.

R® O® Y® A® L® T® I® E® S® !®

klarek says

Patrick is being targeted for publicly calling them out on what they are and what they represent.

Yes, and he can still do this if he changes it to "real estate brokers" or "used home salesperson", although the latter is descriptive yet cumbersome.

It's clearly part of their push to keep their trademark, not an attempt to keep Patrick and others from writing about what a waste of space they are, but they are DEFINITELY trying to keep Realtor a trademark and not generic-ified like happened to asprin and many other trademarks.

I'd change your logo because it's not JUST real estate agents associated with the NAR that are idiots, and make sure any references to Realtors on your fixed pages (not forums) of your site say "Realtors(tm) and other real estate agents" if you want to keep referencing them directly. Also include disclaimers about not being associated with them.

Troy says

Expat says

I’ll sue you for that, too!

Sorry I’ve patented the act of suing for trademark violations, so you have no redress until my patent runs out in 2032.

And sorry to you, as I have patented the act of commenting on blogs. So your counter-patent to the redress is in clear violation of my patent.

Patrick, you should contact eff.org if you want a legal opinion and possibly assistance in fighting this.

In short, by using "realtor" instead of "REALTOR" with the circled R, you are at least potentially infringing on their trademark. With that, they can easily file a lawsuit (in their chosen jurisdiction), likely Texas or somewhere highly inconvenient/expensive for you. At best, you win and are out hundreds of thousands in legal fees allowing you to keep this site as is. At worst, you lose and have to pay damages plus pay your legal fees and then have to change the site. It's a lose-lose for you. It stinks that this is how it works, but that's how our legal system is.

I'll make sure I use the term "real estate agent" and not REALTOR(r) whenever I talk to anyone about real estate, so everyone else can get used to the term "real estate agent" and not the useless term "REALTOR(r)"

Realturd works for me, maybe I'l switch to "house sales person" when I feel like it.

TechGromit says

No one could reasonably think I am using their logo to associate myself with them when saying “What realtors won’t tell you”. So I think it’s fair use, or “nominative use”.

It’s your funeral, can I at least convince you to consult an lawyer before you commit financial suicide. Lawyers can make the unreasonable completely reasonable. If they can get a multimillion dollar award for a lady that burns herself with a obviously hot cup of coffee, I think they can prove copyright infringement in this case.

Did you ever read the real story on this?

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

At least it's entertaining. The Post "Mortgage rates scream do not buy" has 10,000 views in 5 months, this topic has over 5,000 views in 21 hours.

ch_tah says

In short, by using “realtor” instead of “REALTOR” with the circled R, you are at least potentially infringing on their trademark.

OK, I added a capital R and the trademark symbol to my logo. Now I will clarify the text of my crash page to make it clear I am talking about THEM and that I am in no way associated with them.

Now I will clarify the text of my crash page to make it clear I am talking about THEM and that I am in no way associated with them.

That would be boastful and self-serving.

Start a legal defense fund. The one cool thing about lawyers is that there is always a bigger and nastier one that can be bought to rip the other side apart.

I updated my crash.html pages to say:

1. I am in no way associated with them, thank God.
2. They made me add the (R) mark.
3. They are worse than non-Realtor(R) agents because they actively seek to corrupt our laws with lobbying and bribes, er, campaign donations.

I also removed all ambiguity. I am talking exactly about Realtors(R) at all times now, not agents in general, though the majority of agents are Realtors(R).

OK, trademark complaint resolved. Now it should more clearly be just a case about whether I am allowed to use freedom of speech to point out their harmful effect on the country.

This could be the start of something Big. How much press do these folks want?

ch_tah says

In short, by using “realtor” instead of “REALTOR” with the circled R, you are at least potentially infringing on their trademark.

OK, I added a capital R and the trademark symbol to my logo. Now I will clarify the text of my crash page to make it clear I am talking about THEM and that I am in no way associated with them.

I think you still have the mark wrong. It is all caps, not just the first letter. REALTOR
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4006:udifjj.5.63

You still should contact someone for legal advice.

Katy Perry says

This could be the start of something Big. How much press do these folks want?

Picking on him right after his article hit the opinion press rounds wasn't very bright. Better for the creeps to lie low and pray the populace remains in the dark, but their criminally complicit nature causes them to miss a beat here and there.

Expat says

Reuters uses “realtor”. Please look at this story.

Well they are going to get an inboxful from nar.

Dear Patrick, Kill the piggy. Michael

Kill the piggy? What does that mean?

Nomograph says

larrypatrickmaloney says

it’s time for you to get schooled on the Constitution.

Agreed. This is not a first amendment issue any more than if someone stole some code Patrick wrote and used it for their own program. Patent and trademark protection are not only in the U.S. Constitution, but date all the way back to the Magna Carta.
larrypatrickmaloney says

Since you are more liberal, I would expect you to cry for your first amendment rights.

Easy there, BaloneyPony. Your so-called “conservative” buddies on this forum cried censorship over Patrick’s ‘ignore’ button. If you try to turn *everything* into a liberal v. conservative issue, you just sound like even more of an idiot than you already do most of the time.

My point was that typically, a leftish person will complain about their first amendment rights , without truly understanding or knowing the constitution. Which seems to be the case here, and it seems you agree with that analysis.

PS: I never complained about the "ignore" button.

PSS: Thanks for calling me names "Nomograph". You are safely hiding behind anonymity. At least I am willing to publicly reveal my identity, which gives me credibility. You, not so much.

I'd change it to "What the Real Estate Industry won't tell you" and call it a day. Life is too short...

rowemoore says

I’d change it to “What the Real Estate Industry won’t tell you” and call it a day. Life is too short…

Agree, just make the logo a bit taller and add room for a second line of text.