patrick.net

Honest Abe says

Who is to blame, the people who benefited from the laws created by our government, or is government to blame?

Dishonest Abe catches Al Capone bribing a beat cop. A REAL American, he'd slap Capone on the wrists meanwhile whispering in his ear an offer for fellatio in exchange for employment as shoeshine boy. Then he'd slap the cop in stocks for a few days before executing him for his venal crime.

Why can't y'all be more like Dishonest Abe, he's a sharp cookie!

But he has a valid point. The American citizens voted for the bailouts and continued crony capitalism and war mongering. Didn't vote for Ron Paul? Well, there is the problem.

37060 bob2356 2013 Sep 10, 11:35am

bgamall4 says

People are learning, learning about the plan for Israeli world takeover.

I don't know what you smoke, but I really want some. Would the Israeli world takeover be before or after the NZ world takeover?

37061

Vicente 2013 Sep 10, 11:50am

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00005906

Didn't vote for Ron Paul?

No, I didn't vote for that particular Libertopian stooge. Proud of it, why change one white water boy for the MIC & FIRE industries, for another one? His list of top donors says it all:

37062

marcus 2013 Sep 10, 2:10pm

CaptainShuddup says

Shelly should be arrested for using the police as a weapon. Dirty rotten whore.

You got all that from the video ? Wow.

The police say the ipad is in a dozen pieces, so I guess she must have done that.

You have a point though. I guess we know that Zimmerman doesn't have any problems controlling himself or his temper, even though he did throw a girl that one time when he was a security officer, and he did have this type of incident with his fiance before, and he did assault a cop once years ago, and of course he did shoot and kill Trayvon Martin.

I guess he's one of those people who just have a lot of crazy crazy drama constantly following them in their life, in spite of how much they have their shit together.

Oh wait, I forgot, there are no such people.

37063 mell 2013 Sep 10, 2:22pm

mell says

Didn't vote for Ron Paul?

No, I didn't vote for that particular Libertopian stooge. Proud of it, why change one white water boy for the MIC & FIRE industries, for another one? His list of top donors says it all:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00005906

You must be looking at a different list than me. Close to zero banks/TBTFs in there, instead producing companies and the military personnel, which is not surprising, as they want good benefits for their veterans instead of being sent into illegal and useless wars. Overall the contributions he received from corporations (even the defense companies) are tiny compared to the 2 lamestream candidates (tweedledee obummer and tweedledum mittens) , instead he got a lot of individual donations from grassroots movements. This list is a strong endorsement for Ron Paul and speaks for itself! You should try not to waste your vote and give it to true change for once. You can always go back to tweedledee and tweedledum if you get disappointed ;)

37064

hanera 2013 Sep 10, 2:28pm

Even if in a bubble, nobody know when and at what price level the bubble would burst.

37065

Vicente 2013 Sep 10, 2:34pm

instead he got a lot of individual donations from grassroots movements.

Yes he does try and present that homespun image. However he's as big a phony as the rest of them. Sure he's against all federal intrusion, where it matters to protecting Big Business. When it comes to abortion, he regularly proposes acts declaring a fetus a person. When it comes to adoption, he started a bill to stop kids from being adopted by gays. DOMA? Oh yeah, he loves states rights as a talking point for the crackpots and neo-Confederates, otherwise he's happy to turn Federal guns on you to make SURE you can't get medical coverage for your partner. The only real success Ron Paul has had as a legislator? Well...... can't think of any.... oh right he did bring home lots of pork for his district despite being against that sort of thing.

Oh yeah and he's been really good at building this image of a gadfly, which brings him a sort of notoriety among the bores who want to loan you their copy of Atlas Shrugged and tell you how important it is to own gold.

37066

Vicente 2013 Sep 10, 2:44pm

they want good benefits for their veterans instead of being sent into illegal and useless wars

So they want to collect a fat lifetime entitlement for doing nothing. I bet they do. Where's our tax dollars go?

Socialist medical care. An even more socialist PENSION, an anachronism that would be reviled in other sectors.

If America didn't send it's soldiers into "illegal and useless wars"? You'd have at least 2 whole generations of soldiers who'd never seen battle, sort of hard to make the case for veterans needing a bottomless backstop in that scenario.

37067 mell 2013 Sep 10, 3:00pm

So they want to collect a fat lifetime entitlement for doing nothing. I bet they do.

No, they want and deserve proper lifetime care after being blown to parts by warmongering presidents and republican and democratic armchair quarterbacks. Besides the point that less wars with better equipped and cared for soldiers cost zillions less than the current warmongering in every shit corner of the world, comparing a mandatory deployment to warzones within the military to a regular corporate job somewhat distasteful.

37068

Vicente 2013 Sep 10, 3:03pm

No, they want and deserve proper lifetime care after being blown to parts by warmongering presidents and republican and democratic armchair quarterbacks.

So offer that to personnel who've actually BEEN in war zones. Getting a fat pension for sitting behind a desk in Germany for 20 years, sorry DENIED hope your 401K choices did well move along! I got nothing against the grunt with no legs, he deserves it. However Sgt. Rock is just the Poster Boy, the majority of the military is in no danger of riding over top of an IED and if a teacher doesn't "deserve" a pension neither do they.

As I said if we didn't engage in "illegal and useless" wars, we wouldn't have BEEN in a one for many decades. Therefore your "veterans" would be no such thing, greatly weakening their case to have a pension they need to protect. At that point they are civil servants, little more than a Coast Guard. Why can't they have 401K-type plans like everyone else does these days? They should have the RIGHT to make their own investment choices so they can roll the dice and maybe win a better retirement than the next soldier, just like the rest of us. Right? Real Americans do everything themselves.

Anyways, I've gotten way off topic. Thanks for the diversion but back to business.

Americans are thoroughly BRAINWASHED, they think things are MUCH more equitable than they are.

37069

marcus 2013 Sep 10, 3:16pm

Anything Captain or above are paid way better than teachers, especially if you include their housing allowance.

37070

Vicente 2013 Sep 10, 3:53pm

control point says

I'm all ears if someone can suggest a better method for reversing this trend than raising taxes on high incomes and investments.

Why immediately discount strategies that work?

" The fairness of taxing more lightly income from wages, salaries or from investments is beyond question. In the first case, the income is uncertain and limited in duration; sickness or death destroys it and old age diminishes it; in the other, the source of income continues; the income may be disposed of during a manâ€™s life and it descends to his heirs. Surely we can afford to make a distinction between the people whose only capital is their mettle and physical energy and the people whose income is derived from investments. Such a distinction would mean much to millions of American workers and would be an added inspiration to the man who must provide a competence during his few productive years to care for himself and his family when his earnings capacity is at an end. "

- Andrew W. Mellon, Taxation: The People's Business, 1924.

Having Warren Buffett pay lower tax rate than his secretary is an obscenity. For most of the last century the capital gains tax rate were higher than now, OMG how did old-timey economy survive such crushing impediments????!!!??

37071 control point 2013 Sep 10, 9:52pm

david1 says

There are no solutions that don't include giving more of X to the bottom 99%. It's not going to be done voluntarily, so what do you propose the nation does to fix this if it's not tax policy?

This doesn't make sense. You have stated the problem with math, but you must realize if you use the words in this way, the solution is known. Obviously, the problem is too much of X goes to the top 1%, and the solution is to give more of X to the bottom 99%. What I am saying is there exists more than 1 method by which this can be accomplished.

I was questioning your assertion that tax policy is the only method by which the solution can be accomplished. I should have been more clear perhaps.

Anyway - what are your responses to the suggestions of using inflation, limiting IP rights, and/or labor empowerment? How about the asset tax?

By the way, if you want to use progressive income taxes to solve the problem, fine. To me, that is the lazy way that will inevitably have unintended consequences. Tax policy changes surely alter behavior.

Further, the progressiveness of the income tax should be skewed much more than only on the top 1%. Really should focus on the top 400 or so taxpayers, they have essentially half the countries wealth. That is the true ruling class. Saying the "top 1%" - realize that is about 1.5 million taxpayers. The cutoff for that bracket is about $350k. That is only 7 times the median - a person with that income has MUCH more in common with the average Joe than he does with a member of the top 400, whose income cutoff is well over $100 million, or roughly 285 times the guy just on the edge of the top 1%.

In short, the current structure is already skewed towards the top 1% - only those in that bracket pay 39.6%. But why does the top bracket stop there? WHy not have 45% over 1 million, 50% over 2 million, 55% over 5 million, 60% over 10 million, 65% over 20 million, 70% over 50 million, 75% over 100 million, 80% over 250 million, 85% over 500 million, and 90% over 1 billion.

37072 mmmarvel 2013 Sep 10, 10:24pm

A bubble, I'm not sure. What I am sure of is that the home I bought in 2011 had a high value (according to Zillow) in 7/07 of $164K (remember, I live in Houston). I bought the home in 10/11 for $118K at which time Zillow valued it at $120K. In 8/13 Zillow is valuing my home at $159K - looks painfully like a bubble to me.

37073 HEY YOU 2013 Sep 11, 12:52am

mmmarvel,
~25% increase in less than 2 years. If wages haven't increased,do we call this a bubble? Wait! Bulls call it an improving market.
Do you sell close to $159K or even the $164K, let the bubble burst & buy again?
That's difficult to answer.

37074 mell 2013 Sep 11, 1:05am

So offer that to personnel who've actually BEEN in war zones. Getting a fat pension for sitting behind a desk in Germany for 20 years, sorry DENIED hope your 401K choices did well move along! I got nothing against the grunt with no legs, he deserves it. However Sgt. Rock is just the Poster Boy, the majority of the military is in no danger of riding over top of an IED and if a teacher doesn't "deserve" a pension neither do they.

There are 2 different issues here. I'm not objecting to somewhat equal pension treatments for all government workers if they are fit and able to provide for themselves and their 401K. But that doesn't apply to wounded or traumatized soldiers, they should be taken care of. So yeah, an administrative desk-sitter in no actual danger of ever being deployed can be treated differently. But that only distracts from the fact that under Ron Paul defense spending would be a fraction of what it is now and the TBTFs would have failed and the FIRE sector reduced. No candidate is the perfect solution, but it's fair to say at this point that it's better than continued warmongering, taking away of civil liberties, crony capitalism and stagflation.

37075 control point 2013 Sep 11, 1:16am

I'm not objecting to somewhat equal pension treatments for all government
workers if they are fit and able to provide for themselves and their 401K. But
that doesn't apply to wounded or traumatized soldiers, they should be taken care
of.

Fighting the wrong battle here. Instead of complaining about Federal pensions being too rich, should be complaining that private pensions are too poor.

Don't you think there is some correlation of increased profitability, increased executive pay, and decreased worker benefits in the private sector?

Is it really innovative if an executive slashes pensions to make more profit and earn higher bonuses? Anyone greedy can figure that out.

37076

Vicente 2013 Sep 11, 1:17am

But that only distracts from the fact that under Ron Paul defense spending would be a fraction of what it is now and the TBTFs would have failed and the FIRE sector reduced.

Ron Paul only claimed a 15% reduction, which I doubt he would get through Congress anyway so it's irrelevant. If you're only going to have a Coast Guard and a few boomers, why do you need 85% of the budget still? Oh right, pork and jobs programs digging holes and filling them up or something.

Oh Ron Paul proposed enacting Glass Steagall again? NOOOPE! Under Ron Paul, we'd be even MORE deregulated, so nothing would have changed in the FIRE sector. As piss poor as the current regulatory scheme is, his would be even more "let 'em run WILD whee let the chips fall where they may!" And we know how things end when there are frequent boom bust cycles, consolidations/mergers and the money percolates upward even faster.

37077 mell 2013 Sep 11, 1:27am

My problem with Rand Paul is that he uses the Libertarian moniker to appear different than other Republicans when he strikes me as just an isolationist trickle down conservative. He can't run a country if he has no social policies other than a hands-off economic policy. In order to win a primary election he'll have to show that he's a southern conservative evangelical, fetus-is-a-person candidate, and instantly his singularity will vanish. He's no different than any of them save for some small-military rhetoric which he'll quickly abandon. He can't change anything.

Rand and Ron are very different. Rand is more a career politician, still youngish. I think the Republican party will eventually (have to) modernize, but even now the 2 parties are way to close. Fact is that the citizens on both sides think they are going a grand job for humanity by voting for their party in absolutely minor issues such as abortion regulations and gay marriage while 90% of the policies that do matter are absolutely identical for both parties. I'm socially liberal and would legalize civil unions for everybody incl. polygamists while abolishing government marriage, I also think that picking a point in time up to which abortion is legal is the fairest solution but would let states craft their own laws, but in reality none of these issues matter in order to lead a productive and happy life. We have become trend-setting egomaniacs who think the rest of the worlds needs our "goodness", "greatness" and must adopt our policies or we'll bomb the shit out of them and we are happy with a president who kills innocent children and families around the world as long as he has a domestic gay-friendly agenda. That's the reality, If I could I'd give up my right to marry and give it to a gay couple/polygamist x-tuple instead if I could have one less drone strike on some poor family in the middle-east. Flame away, I don't care ;)

37078 mell 2013 Sep 11, 1:30am

And we know how things end when there are frequent boom bust cycles, consolidations/mergers and the money percolates upward even faster.

That's not true, most grand failures of 2008 would not have been touched with a ten foot pole by the surviving banks and smaller credit unions if the govt/Fed would not have subsidized and backstopped almost every deal/merger. Boom/bust cycles would happen far less frequently if tail-risk is kept and people actually would buy houses to live in instead to flip and wealth/income disparity was greatly reduced during the 2008 crisis but the trend was stopped with the bailouts.

37079

monkframe 2013 Sep 11, 1:31am

"All we can say at this point is Republican policies continue to work their magic on the country."

All politicians serve the one percent, who provide most of the bribes, er, I mean campaign contributions. I don't see a difference between the two wings of the "Business Party," as Ralph Nader calls it.

37080 mell 2013 Sep 11, 1:59am

mell says

I'm socially liberal

Glad to hear it. But how do you vote Libertarian when they are a subset of the conservative group? I would be happy to see more accountability in American business: it gets away with murder. It has models built way-passed-stupid and is run at the street level by ill-trained idiot children. But your vision of "none of this ever would have happened if only"....is a theory you can't test. In order to test it we would have to elect an evangelical in Libertarian clothing. I won't risk it.

I can understand that. I believe though that societies should be able to make their own rules up to the smallest practicable level as advocated by Ron Paul. There is far less risk of dictatorship and totalitarian ideological brainwashing if you can simply move to a neighboring region/state/country if you don't agree with the policies of your current local administration. I don't know exactly what specific "evangelical" issues you would be concerned about though.

37081

Shaman 2013 Sep 11, 2:00am

This is why the wealthy elite win. When a candidate for legitimate change like Ron Paul achieves some notoriety, they bombard the campaign with bullshit social issues like abortion and gay rights, or racial issues if necessary. This serves to muddy the waters and rile up people on both sides of these emotional but not very significant issues, and polarizes what should be a united electorate. Then it's fairly simple to elect the next White House desk pigeon from a short list of "douche bag" and "turd sandwich."
Otherwise intelligent people like Vicente get the wool pulled over their eyes and soon we're even further toward being the type of war mongering dictatorship we used to despise.

37082 mell 2013 Sep 11, 2:08am

mell says

I don't know exactly what specific "evangelical" issues you would be concerned about though.

All of them.

That's too unspecific for me. Abortion (there are far more logical/non-religious reasons to prosecute abortion than any drug use) and gay marriage (not a civil right as marriage is an artificial positive discriminatory government construct that can only be fair if abolished) are not amongst them for me, so what else? What can't be solved by moving into another state if you happen to find yourself in deeply religious territory?

37083 mell 2013 Sep 11, 2:10am

Quigley says

This is why the wealthy elite win. When a candidate for legitimate change like Ron Paul achieves some notoriety, they bombard the campaign with bullshit social issues like abortion and gay rights, or racial issues if necessary. This serves to muddy the waters and rile up people on both sides of these emotional but not very significant issues, and polarizes what should be a united electorate. Then it's fairly simple to elect the next White House desk pigeon from a short list of "douche bag" and "turd sandwich."

Otherwise intelligent people like Vicente get the wool pulled over their eyes and soon we're even further toward being the type of war mongering dictatorship we used to despise.

Agreed - well said.

37084

bdrasin 2013 Sep 11, 2:23am

I'm socially liberal

That's nice, but if you are never, ever, ever going to be willing to vote for a member of the party which supports these things (i.e. the Democratic party) then your support is hollow.

37085

Vicente 2013 Sep 11, 2:27am

That's not true, most grand failures of 2008 would not have been touched with a ten foot pole by the surviving banks and smaller credit unions if the govt/Fed would not have subsidized and backstopped almost every deal/merger.

I call that a HYPOTHESIS, which is an idea you can test.

Feel free to survey the repeated economic crises of the previous couple of centuries and follow the wealth.

Crisis unfolds "naturally", the wealth moves up. Economic crisis is a feast for Richie Rich. Glass Steagall prevented them for 80 years and we had unprecedented stability and a healthy middle class. We threw that all away because wizened Libertopian gnomes like Greenspan and Ron Paul thought we could have an EPIC party and to hell with the hangover. Libertopians are the isolationist Republican crank wing, and are perfectly happy to have "creative destruction" as long as what it creates is a wealthier 1%.

37086 mell 2013 Sep 11, 2:29am

bdrasin says

mell says

I'm socially liberal

That's nice, but if you are never, ever, ever going to be willing to vote for a member of the party which supports these things (i.e. the Democratic party) then your support is hollow.

I outlined above how I think this is equally supported by Libertarians, so I don't need to vote democratic. Also some of the perceived social issues aren't or are very minor compared to killing innocent civilians and children who would gladly opt for the opportunity to just have a live with these social "constraints". In that case I have to weigh what's more important and the choice is easy. But for the record, I supported more democratic candidates than republicans, I just don't have a home in either camp because they appear like one to me ;)

37087

Vicente 2013 Sep 11, 2:34am

He [Rand Paul] can't run a country if he has no social policies other than a hands-off economic policy.

Libertopians don't want to run a country, he attended a RenFest and thought it'd be fun to recreate feudalism.

37088 mell 2013 Sep 11, 2:38am

Libertopian gnomes like Greenspan

How you can call Greenspan a non-interventionist Libertarian when he pushed rates lower and lower to inflate bubbles at the helm of the Fed is beyond me. Not everyone who read Ayn Rand and claims to be inspired is therefore a Libertarian. Greenspan is no different form Bernanke, a crony capitalist interventionist tool.

37089 mell 2013 Sep 11, 2:42am