patrick.net

Reality says

No kidding. Robber Barons often involved government cronies. While robbing taxpayers via government subsidy has a very long history, the speed of robbing via government granted privileges really took off in the middle of 19th century, leading to coining the term "Robber Baron."

Robbing what taxpayers and what government subsidies are you talking about ? .. and what were they in 1800s considering the modern tax system came to be in the 1910s.

MershedPerturders says

There is precisely NO WAY we could be living the lifestyle that we do, the way we do it, without exploiting people. Let's try to do things first off without using illegal aliens, foreign labor, imports from slave states like China.

Very true. Not sure how this will lead to WW3 though...

More likely the American standard of living will continue to fall until we reach equilibrium with the rest of the world. In a globalized economy, everyone makes Bangladesh wages. Except for the few hundred billionaires living in floating cities in the ocean (where they can avoid taxation).

freak80 says

Like I said, "Reality", if you think it's best to have no government, move to Somolia or Haiti. They are fine examples of libertarian paradise.

Somali living standards improved faster during the time when they had no central government than any time when they had one during the last 200+ years.

Haiti is in practice a UN/US colony.

The US was founded on breaking free from the shackles of a big centralized government . . . i.e. the principles of liberty and freedom, which means liberty and freedom from big government.

curious2 says

Reality says

I satisfied the college requirement on American history by getting a 5 a AP test while in high school.

This comment reminds me of history professors' common complaint that the most frustrating part of their job is overcoming all the falsehoods that students are taught in high school, especially about American history. The Texas school boards have had a particularly pernicious influence on American history textbooks. A high school AP test can show an aptitude for history, and 5 is the highest score, but the failure to pursue further study suggests a lack of serious interest.

Two basic errors in your assumptions:

1. You assumed I took no further history courses and did no further study in history in college after satisfying basic college degree requirement. That assumption is thoroughly wrong. I mentioned AP history in high school to show that I had far more than average interest and knowledge in history, from early on. During 4yrs of college, in addition to my course work in classical history, my main past time on weekends was researching late 19th century and first half of 20th century warfare; i.e. industrialized warfare from ironclad age to the dawn of nuclear age. I actually read through the entire sets of official histories in green and blue. You should check it out at a good library to see just how many books that entails. That was before I switched interest to economic history during graduate school years.

2. You are assuming college history professors are disinterested parties in those comments belittling AP American history taught in high school. The professor who taught my AP class actually taught at college at the same time.

thomaswong.1986 says

Lol.. you know very little about the Western Tradition and history of self sustain's ones self as well as seeking new opportunities. Call it the Protestant work ethic or Catholic work ethic..

The Calvinist/Puritan Work Ethic is all about "proving" one is among The Elect (the ones God predestined to Salvation) by being financially successful. Those who are not financially successful are "obviously" among The Reprobate (the ones God predestined to Damnation). It's a great way to hide one's greed and/or contempt for the less fortunate behind a veil of pious religiosity. It's an attitude which is very common on the Religious Right today. I know, because I grew up in that world.

No, it's not a new idea in American culture. It's been with us since the Puritans landed here in 1620. Puritanism infects our whole culture.

freak80 says

More likely the American standard of living will continue to fall until we reach equilibrium with the rest of the world. In a globalized economy, everyone makes Bangladesh wages. Except for the few hundred billionaires living in floating cities in the ocean (where they can avoid taxation).

Bangladeshis make bangladeshi wages largely because of the weight of bureaucratic red tapes crushing the local economy. Give them a couple decades of relative market freedom, their wages would rise just as fast as those of Japanese and Chinese did.

Reality says

Bangladeshis make bangladeshi wages largely because of the weight of bureaucratic red tapes crushing the local economy.

Evidence for that?

freak80 says

Reality says

Bangladeshis make bangladeshi wages largely because of the weight of bureaucratic red tapes crushing the local economy.

Evidence for that?

Chinese and Vietnamese used to make less than Bangladeshis did . . . now they make more thanks to their market reforms/liberalization. Even wages in Bangladesh has been rising due to its slow pace market liberalization.

curious2 says

This comment reminds me of history professors' common complaint that the most frustrating part of their job is overcoming all the falsehoods that students are taught in high school, especially about American history.

Lincoln profited as president by dictating where the RR would go which was through his land. Which isn't too surprising considering that he got 650,000 Americans killed to protect the FED income from tariffs on southern exports. Not to mention that he could not care less about abolition.

Did any of these fun facts make into the recent Hollywood rendition of the Lincoln fairy tale?

Reality says

Many robber barons made their first pot of gold in railroad.

A few made their first pot of gold in railroad. Many more last their ass. Something like 30% of railroads went under in the panic of 1893. The ones that became really wealthy in railroads ( Morgan, Cornelius Vanderbilt, and Jay Gould) bought up and consolidated existing railroads that were already built.

Your comment was that the robber barons BUILT the railroads, canals, and tollways. Tollways and canals were long since built by the time the robber barons came onto the scene. Very few of the robber barons were the people who built the railroads. Are you sure the AP test you took was in history?

You guys forgot Cambodia in your no government rants.

OK, the problem is that our government was founded by, and for the People, so we are different from Europe in that way.

It was a deliberate wording to distinguish ourselves, our government, from monarchies, and aristocracies.

I especially like the Apollo 13? reference as not benefiting any one:

A November 1971 study of NASA released by the Midwest Research Institute of Kansas City, Missouri ("Technological Progress and Commercialization of Communications Satellites." In: "Economic Impact of Stimulated Technological Activity") concluded that "the $25 billion in 1958 dollars spent on civilian space R & D during the 1958-1969 period has returned $52 billion through 1971 -- and will continue to produce pay offs through 1987, at which time the total pay off will have been $181 billion. The discounted rate of return for this investment will have been 33 percent."

A map from NASA's web site illustrating its economic impact on the U.S. states (as of FY2003)
A 1992 article in the British science journal Nature reported:[14]

"The economic benefits of NASA's programs are greater than generally realized. The main beneficiaries (the American public) may not even realize the source of their good fortune. . ."

That's from Wikipedia, but there are many more detailed accounts out there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA

indigenous says

the cost of a privately launched satellite is a fraction of the cost, you are smoking dope.

It wouldn't be possible to launch any satellite, public or private, w/o the massive government investments in NASA and the Apollo program. Basic science research and development is usually too risky and expensive for private companies.

Disclaimer for idiots: I'm not saying the government should run everything.

Some one else compared Intel to Federal government research?

There wouldn't be an Intel without government research.

Reality says

I satisfied the college requirement on American history by getting a 5 a AP test while in high school

You are a mouthpiece for the cr
onies and don't realize it.

My contentions ate based off of axioms of economics . Yours are based off of conjecture.

Which is how I can say that you cannot coherently say all government has value. And to think that is insane

indigenous says

My contentions ate based off of axioms of economics . Yours are based off of conjecture.

Which is how I can say that you cannot coherently say all government has value.

I'm missing something here.

The money our government spends goes into the economy.

If the money isn't spent we would have a surplus instead of a deficit.

We are deficit spending, and trying to catch up to breaking even.

We have tried giving the wealthy money, but they just hoard it. That is the game the wealthy play. They may buy a gold plated Ferrari, but the bulk of the wealth is in safe, secure investment instruments.

Uh Oh, our government is now deficit spending to make those safe investments more secure.

The bottom line is that I think I read some place that if the government were to give $85 Billion a month in middle class pay checks, or benefits, our economy would be much stronger than it is now.

As usual, the government worshipers are asking for proof that the sun would rise the next morning even if we stop human sacrifice on the stepped pyramid today. It's amazing anyone having their heads out of their asses would even ask for proof that NASA launch cost is much more expensive than the private sector. For crying out loud, the commercial satellite industry has been using alternative launchers for well over a decade, ever since using anyone other than NASA has been legal. Here's the latest comparison:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/11354/spacex-spends-320-times-less-on-building-the-dragon-than-nasa-does-on-the-orion

David Losh says

"the $25 billion in 1958 dollars spent on civilian space R & D during the 1958-1969 period has returned $52 billion through 1971 -- and will continue to produce pay offs through 1987, at which time the total pay off will have been $181 billion. The discounted rate of return for this investment will have been 33 percent."

This is of course utter hogwash designed for the economically and financially illiterate. Do you really believe something with an annualized return of 33% would have no investors? NASA had government granted monopoly on space launch from its founding to the late 80's (if not 90's). As soon as alternative space launch became legal, companies needing to put satellites into the orbit quickly resorted to alternative launchers. What does that really say about what was NASA's real impact on the advancement of space technology and space industry?

David Losh says

I'm missing something here.

The money our government spends goes into the economy.

Yes, you are missing something. The money spent by the government goes to big buggy whip making companies with tons of lobbyiests when the free market has just collapsed the horse carriage price due to the emergence of automobiles.

To the aggregation idiots, a $1000 worth of buggy whips is just as good as $1000 car (about the price of early cars at then price, equivalent to about $65,000 today, for a primitive car at the time). In fact, to those idiots, the more expensive the buggy whips the better.

If the money isn't spent we would have a surplus instead of a deficit.

How exactly has spending money blowing up bridges and schools overseas then rebuilding them on your dime have helped you in anyway?

We have tried giving the wealthy money, but they just hoard it. That is the game the wealthy play. They may buy a gold plated Ferrari, but the bulk of the wealth is in safe, secure investment instruments.

Most government spending of course go to the wealthy . . . as in government contracts. Who do you think hire the most lobbyists? the poor? The idea that the wealthy just hoard the money is also wrong. They get wealthy by investing and let money grow. When government borrow money from them and pay them back in interest, the wealthy are just using the government as leg breakers to grow their money.

Uh Oh, our government is now deficit spending to make those safe investments more secure.

The bottom line is that I think I read some place that if the government were to give $85 Billion a month in middle class pay checks, or benefits, our economy would be much stronger than it is now.

When government spends $85B a month, it has to pay that money back plus interest by taking in taxes in the future. The upper middle class who are not rich enough to buy their own lawmakers are the ones who ultimately foot the bills. When the government spends $85B a month, it's not sending $85B to the middle class, but promising to take that much from the middle class in the future to pay the creditors, who are mostly the rich banksters who conjure up the money from nearly nothing to begin with.

Reality says

Here's the latest comparison:

Did you read the article?

The government funded the research, like it usually does for most things.

Then you followed this up with a comparison to buggy whips.

It's really easy to say the private sector will do something, but they do what is profit driven.

If you look at the auto industry today it looks a lot like it did after WWII. It's a gas combustion engine for God sakes!

So in WWI the federal governments of Germany, France, Italy, England, and the United States funded the production of thousands of vehicles, but you discount that.

Since the innovations of the thousands of vehicles used in WWII, the gas combustion dinosaurs look pretty much the same.

Private enterprise isn't going to do anything, not now, not ever. They can't even build a better mouse trap, or cure the common cold.

Private enterprise will wait for the government to supply the technology, then capitalize on it.

David Losh says

Did you read the article?

The government funded the research, like it usually does for most things.

Yes I did read the article. No, the government did not fund the research. The government buys a product, just like the Nazi's bought a bunch of IBM punch card computers.

David Losh says

It's really easy to say the private sector will do something, but they do what is profit driven.

If you look at the auto industry today it looks a lot like it did after WWII. It's a gas combustion engine for God sakes!

So in WWI the federal governments of Germany, France, Italy, England, and the United States funded the production of thousands of vehicles, but you discount that.

Just like the Nazis bought a bunch of IBM punch card computers. Would you also argue that Nazis building concentration camps launched the modern building industry?

David Losh says

Since the innovations of the thousands of vehicles used in WWII, the gas combustion dinosaurs look pretty much the same.

You are out of your mind if you believe that . . . and you deserve the Soviet Lada built up to the 1980 according to the 1950's spec. The rest of us have long moved on from such dinosaurs.

Profit opportunity is literally how consumers express their preferences for resource allocation. It's called the price signal . . . works much better for the masses than political signals transmitted by lobbyists.

Private enterprise isn't going to do anything, not now, not ever. They can't even build a better mouse trap, or cure the common cold.

Private enterprise will wait for the government to supply the technology, then capitalize on it.

Do you live in North Korea or just time travelled from the soviet union of the 1970's? A simple visit to home depot or any grocery store would show you plenty different types of mouse traps or cold meds offered by different private enterprises.

Reality says

The upper middle class who are not rich enough to buy their own lawmakers are the ones who ultimately foot the bills.

Agreed.

Reality says

The government buys a product, just like the Nazi's bought a bunch of IBM punch card computers.

I think you are doing yourself a disservice by using this example, which is kind of like the automobile example I used.

Your government funded computer research. IBM capitalized on it, and another government with unlimited funds bought the technology.

David Losh says

Reality says

The government buys a product, just like the Nazi's bought a bunch of IBM punch card computers.

I think you are doing yourself a disservice by using this example, which is kind of like the automobile example I used.

Your government funded computer research. IBM capitalized on it, and another government with unlimited funds bought the technology.

So you are saying the Nazis in the 1930's bought the fruit of US government funding in the 1940's? How does the time vector work in your world? No wonder you are confused about . . . just about everything!

Reality says

So you are saying the Nazis in the 1930's bought the fruit of US government funding in the 1940's?

You'd have to make that comment a lot more clear. What time line are you using?

Can the private sector cure disease and advance medicine?

"Ain't no money in a cure...they still mad about all the money they lost on polio!"

--Chris Rock

The free market alone can't provide us with everything we might want.

"Reality",

Do you suggest that Las Vegas wouldn't exist if we just got government out of the way?

freak80 says

"Reality",

Do you suggest that Las Vegas wouldn't exist if we just got government out of the way?

If gambling and prostitution were legal everywhere else, Las Vegas as we know it would not exist. Gambling and prostitution would of course exist, but the pay off would not have been as rich if other venues of personal success are more open to the youth. It is no co-incidence that drugs, prostitution and gangs are more common in low-income low-opportunity neighborhoods, esp. when measured vis other sources of income.

If we could just get rid of government schools on those low income neighborhoods, there would be much less drug use and prostitution there.

Reality,

How would you increase opportunity in low income neighborhoods? A tax cut?

freak80 says

Reality,

How would you increase opportunity in low income neighborhoods? A tax cut?

Even more important than that:

1. removing minimum wage laws banning low-opportunity youth from their first jobs. Minimum wage laws banning low paying jobs have a disproportional harm on those with low opportunity cost.

2. removing/raising income cap on welfare or remove welfare altogether, so the poor don't have to seek jobs that pay under the table in order to keep their welfare checks. With nearly 50 million Americans receiving food stamps, this is no longer an issue limited to poor neighborhoods.

freak80 says

Can the private sector cure disease and advance medicine?

"Ain't no money in a cure...they still mad about all the money they lost on polio!"

--Chris Rock

The free market alone can't provide us with everything we might want.

Utter nonsense. The very first effective Polio vaccine was developed by Hilary Koprowski in 1950 while working at Lederle Labs, a private research lab owned by a large private coporation.

It went into medical trial usage quietly, unlike the Salk vaccine announced in 1955 with heavy marketing/promotion money from Ely Lilly. Incidentally, Ely Lilly was also a private company. Selling vaccine to the healthy is apparently even more profitable than selling cure to the sick. The University of Pittsburgh and March of Dimes Foundation that funded Salk's research were also both private non-profit institutions.

Reality says

Even more important than that:

1. removing minimum wage laws banning low-opportunity youth from their first jobs. Minimum wage laws banning low paying jobs have a disproportional harm on
those with low opportunity cost.

2. removing/raising income cap on welfare or remove welfare altogether, so the poor don't have to seek jobs that pay under the table in order to keep their welfare checks. With nearly 50 million Americans receiving food stamps, this is no longer an issue limited to poor neighborhoods.

Proof you are completely delusional.

Just try living on a minimum wage job.

You are completely out of touch with Reality.

freak80 says

Reality says

Even more important than that:

1. removing minimum wage laws banning low-opportunity youth from their first jobs. Minimum wage laws banning low paying jobs have a disproportional harm on

those with low opportunity cost.

2. removing/raising income cap on welfare or remove welfare altogether, so the poor don't have to seek jobs that pay under the table in order to keep their welfare checks. With nearly 50 million Americans receiving food stamps, this is no longer an issue limited to poor neighborhoods.

Proof you are completely delusional.

Just try living on a minimum wage job.

You are completely out of touch with Reality.

Proof that you are utterly illogical and is capable of no dialogue except for personal attacks. If you think the lowest paid and very first job in a person's life has to pay enough to enable the person to live on his/her own, possibly with children to support, then no wonder the result is massive youth unemployment as they can not get job experience started with such a high threshold . . . and many of the young have to get their first jobs either by dealing drugs, prostituting themselves or getting pregnant . . . three of the remaining entry level jobs not banned by minimum wage laws.

The normal sequence of events should be gaining job experience before moving out of parents' homes, not the other way around! The first jobs are not supposed to provide the job holders an independent living all on their own. Otherwise, few would be giving the kids the learning opportunity to begin with.

If they can make $20/hr with prostitution and/or drug dealing, are they going to take a job that pays *less* than minimum wage?

Your assertion that an abundance of shit-work will solve inner city crime and poverty is absurd.

freak80 says

If they can make $20/hr with prostitution and/or drug dealing, are they going to take a job that pays *less* than minimum wage?

Your assertion that an abundance of shit-work will solve inner city crime and poverty is absurd.

Depends on how safety or lack thereof is monetized....

freak80 says

If they can make $20/hr with prostitution and/or drug dealing, are they going to take a job that pays *less* than minimum wage?

IIRC, according to some systematic study that I read, the per hour wage for prostitution/drug-dealing/gang-membership is actually very low, in the low single digits, or even less than $1/hr if jail time is counted too as work for the practitioner. The key problem is that the billable hour percentage is very low compared to client maintenance / self-maintenance (due to professional hazards in the underground industries, both physical and psychological) and other unbillable business maintenance hours.

Your assertion that an abundance of shit-work will solve inner city crime and poverty is absurd.

It's not just a theory, but factually proven true: inner city crime and poverty rates were much lower before the minimum wage laws and welfare came along.

Reality says

It's not just a theory, but factually proven true: inner city crime and poverty rates were much lower before the minimum wage laws and welfare came along.

Your facts are a little selective. Inner city crime rates were lower before all the industry moved to the rural south and was replaced by drug dealing.

Reality says

Your assertion that an abundance of shit-work will solve inner city crime and poverty is absurd.

It's not just a theory, but factually proven true: inner city crime and poverty rates were much lower before the minimum wage laws and welfare came along.

Correlation does not imply causality.

1. We did not have gentrification which brings economic inequality with it leading to crime. Poor people don't look outside legal employment channels when $500 pays the mortgage on a house, but too many turn to gangs and kill each other when a $2500 one bedroom apartment is unaffordable on one salary.

2. Before 1930 we didn't have mortgages to prop up property prices and drive up rents. When FHA loans came on the scene in 1934 they required a 50% loan to value ratio, had a 3-5 year term with interest only, and ended with a balloon payment of the full balance. That's how things worked when we got our first minimum wage law in 1938.

bob2356 says

Reality says

It's not just a theory, but factually proven true: inner city crime and poverty rates were much lower before the minimum wage laws and welfare came along.

Your facts are a little selective. Inner city crime rates were lower before all the industry moved to the rural south and was replaced by drug dealing.

With the exception of Detroit, most innercities were not centers for manufacturing even in their hey days. Cities are centers of commerce.