patrick.net

^^^^

Exactly what he said.

I guess the fact that I had a life threatening illness and my medical insurance performed exactly as it should have(and a much maligned HMO at that) is relevant as well. Care that total I'm guessing is in the $500k range retail. 2 surgeries, 4 multi day hospital stays, and countless outpatient treatment and follow up.

I should note that unlike many of my co workers who place a premium on choosing a primary care doctor(a position I find silly...primary care requires the least skill in the medical field) I placed importance on overall health care. TBH, the disease I had is not rare and having to seek treatment across multiple medical facilities would have been undesirable.

Young?

Cool 40's is the new young.

The treatment I received was quite standard. Provided a proficient surgeon(there's a huge correlation between survival rates and quantity of surgeries the facility/surgeon had performed), the entire scope of my treatment involving a great deal of components was greatly facilitated by the easy lines of communications between the FIVE doctors involved in my treatment, not including any medical boards.

In short, this isn't an imagined experience. I've noticed people with my same ailment have a great deal more difficulty when treatment has to be sought via multiple health care providers. Both in terms of insurance and in terms of actual treatment.

Now it's not all peaches and cream. If you have rarer versions I things, the one size fits all approach doesn't work well and it's a pain to get out of network for those type things. But I suspect that sort of thing will Suck no matter what type of medical coverage one has

Auto insurers have death panels for cars.

I can't help but think that health care should be thought of in terms of public safety. Think fire and police service.

Imagine if fire and police protection worked the same way as our health care system.

"Oh your house is on fire? And you're trapped and suffocating? That'll cost you $138,000 for personal rescue, and $46,500 for fire extinguishing... Oh you don't have fire protection insurance?" *click*

The world runs on leverage.

You made the assertion, "Likewise people are willing to pay everything up to the limit of their total net worth to save their own life." It's up to you to provide proof.

More importantly, I believe that you believe it, but you should read The Black Swan. Your beliefs about people reflect your associations with your bankruptcy practice, where you and your colleagues see people who have paid their total net worth for all sorts of things. In other words, you base your belief on an unrepresentative sample, and ignore contrary possibilities. I wonder what percentage of them carry an AHCD? I don't leave home without mine, and I know enough other people who have them to know there are limits on what we would pay to be "saved" (as defined by a preacher or a hospital). I don't know exact percentages, but there are people who pay to end their own lives.

In any event, what I'd really like to see is if you can find a country that has lower OTC drug prices than the U.S. You demanded I prove my assertion that America has the lowest, so I did. Please prove me wrong on that if you can, it would actually be useful and I would appreciate learning of a cheaper place.

Are we just arguing for the sake of arguing? ;-)

Fight fight fight fight!

freak80 says

Pointing out minor flaws in an argument (like lack of exact statistics) isn't productive when it distracts from the main point.

I get that, but it was his main point that was flawed, and besides he was the one who started demanding statistics after he had made the false assertion. Check the time stamps if you care, though frankly it's a waste of time. My real objection to his point is that now with Obamacare his opinion and priorities have been imposed upon us all, based on his assumptions drawn largely from a bankruptcy practice, and Congress has been empowered to penalize contrary "mental activity" that doesn't support their corporate sponsors. I prefer not to share involuntarily in the financial priorities of people who are always borrowing and then go bankrupt.

It's time for this eastern-time guy to go to sleep. I'll fight again in the morning as soon as my SIWOTI syndrome kicks back in.

For what we pay for auto insurance in South Florida 1 in 10 motorist could file a total wreck claim a month, and the system would still make a profit.

Auto insurance in Florida has gotten to the point, that driving is a luxury. It is also a driving factor in high youth unemployment. Anyone under 26 can expect to pay $3600 a year for insurance.
Home insurance is about the same, for a 150K starter home. Think it's a coincidence that every insurance shot up to unaffordable rates for your average American post Obamacare? I don't!

Yes, like I said, I knew these two people personally, they chose death over allowing the medical community to bankrupt them first. Also .. lol, do you really think the medical community is going to be able to diagnose a rare condition before it makes the host sicker! They want the host to get sicker, so they can treat the symptoms not the ailment.

Sickness = profit, wrap your head around that first.

If you want to call a profit center a conspiracy go ahead, makes no difference to me.

everything says

Sickness = profit, wrap your head around that first.

That is absolutely the most dumb assed thing I've seen on patnet. sickness=profit.
hunger=profit, thirst=profit, not dying of exposure=profit. Every single exchange of goods and services on the planet=profit. Unless you are mother theresa posting from the grave (I have my doubts) whatever you are doing from 9-5 today=profit. even government=profit, the workers profit by being paid, suppliers profit (a lot usually). universal health care=profit for the same reasons.

Curiosity overwhelms me. What is it you do from 9-5 that is only for the benefit of mankind without any sort of renumeration?

bob2356 says

everything
says

Sickness = profit, wrap your head around that first.

That is absolutely the most dumb assed thing I've seen on patnet.
sickness=profit.
hunger=profit, thirst=profit, not dying of exposure=profit.

He he, how about sewage then? THE biggest munincipal bankruptcy in American history that happened in Jefferson County, Alabama was over an overpriced sewer construction project that went from $300 million to over $3 billion, with an increase of over 300% in their water/sewer rates. The issue brought down a bunch of (21 total) people including politicians for corruption and bribery.

You think those things can't be exploited for some serious monetary gain?

bob2356 says

That is absolutely the most dumb assed thing I've seen on patnet.
sickness=profit.

Is it? A sick person gives the medical racket a steady stream of revenue. If that person is cured, the stream of revenue ends.

Here is an example for you. Every year 500 thousand gallbladders are removed in the U.S.

Gallbladder disease is a secondary condition.

It's about a 30k operation, in and out in one day.

Once you have the GB removed, your chances of other disease or cancers is heightened.

You may want to believe that U.S. health care is really great, but the U.S. is ranked 38th among nations, 17th in developed nations, first in costs, and last in results.

The numbers speak for themselves, if you think life is more important than money - think again.

It's a known fact, pick up a medical journal, you think they are going to advertise these things, it's just results of studies that have been done. Common sense says that if your yanking body parts out, your more or less disrupting the balance of that organism.

The idea that having the gallbladder removed affects the risk of colon cancer was explored in a study of nearly 56,000 patients in Great Britain's General Practice Research Database. The investigators, from the University of Pennsylvania, found a very small increased risk of colon cancer among these patients. Their data suggested that of every 10,000 patients who had their gallbladders removed, 119 would develop colon cancer within 10 years. That compares to a slightly lower rate of colon cancer among the same number of British patients in this study who didn't have gallbladder surgery: 86 of them developed colon cancer in the same period of time. No higher risk of rectal cancer was seen among the patients who had gallbladder surgery. The study was published in the August, 2005, issue of the American Journal of Gastroenterology.

everything says

Yes, like I said, I knew these two people personally, they chose death over allowing the medical community to bankrupt them first. Also .. lol, do you really think the medical community is going to be able to diagnose a rare condition before it makes the host sicker! They want the host to get sicker, so they can treat the symptoms not the ailment.

Sickness = profit, wrap your head around that first.

This is false. Hospitals do not pressure physicians to dream up surgeries to perform so that they can make money.

Source- My wife is a physician in a hospital. She's never been pressured once to do that, and neither have her colleagues.

nw888 says

Source- My wife is a physician in a hospital. She's never been pressured once to do that, and neither have her colleagues.

The plural of anecdote is not data. You cite one person who says it has never happened to her, but many reports say it happens over and over again. I created a whole thread about hospital fraud, including unnecessary surgeries and hospital executives pressuring doctors (separate reports).

everything says

Common sense says that if your yanking body parts out, your more or less disrupting the balance of that organism.

Common sense is anything but sensible. Your appendix is a significant threat to your life. It's main purpose is financial support of the surgical profession.

freak80 says

Your appendix is a significant threat to your life.

Outside New York, many people die from appendectomy. BBC and others have reported that most people with appendicitis can be treated with antibiotics, much cheaper than surgery. At least you're lucky you live in New York, where although expensive the surgery is competently performed.

curious2 says

nw888 says

Hospitals....

I created a whole thread about hospital fraud, including unnecessary surgeries and pressure on doctors (separate reports).

curious2 says

nw888 says

Hospitals....

I created a whole thread about hospital fraud, including unnecessary surgeries and pressure on doctors (separate reports).

Neither my wife, nor her physician friends and colleagues get kickbacks for procedures. Never have they been pressured to admit people into a hospital to make money. I'm sure it happens in rare instances, but at least none of them have ever heard of it or done it.

Most of the time, unnecessary tests and admittances come from doctors wanting to cover their butts from lawsuits.

curious2 says

The plural of anecdote is not data. You cite one person who says it has never happened to her, but many reports say it happens over and over again. I created a whole thread about hospital fraud, including unnecessary surgeries and hospital executives pressuring doctors (separate reports).

If it was common practice, then she or her colleagues would have encountered it. She's worked at a number of major hospitals in Los Angeles, and never once has she come across this.

nw888 says

Neither my wife, nor her physician friends and colleagues....

Millions of people didn't commit murder last year either, nor sexual assault, nor theft, nor burglary. Yet, those things do happen quite commonly. You seem to be taking umbrage where none is due. Do you leave your house and car unlocked because millions of people wouldn't loot them? Do you see cars or houses sold without locks on the doors? It is entirely appropriate to beware foreseeable risks, including the risk of medical misadventure, which kills hundreds of thousands of Americans annually - more than are killed by murder or terrorists, for example.

Doctors are all in the same club and they know it. YES, many are good, but many come here to the U.S. just to make the money. It's about treating symptoms, not causes.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/15/heart-stents-continue-to-be-overused/?_r=0

Most people don't even know that if you go on just a few simple fasting diets, your body, looking for fats to burn will pull the plaques out of your arteries, the body will clean itself up - but only if you let it. Doctors rarely advise natural healing methods.

curious2 says

Millions of people didn't commit murder last year either, nor sexual assault, nor theft, nor burglary. Yet, those things do happen quite commonly. You seem to be taking umbrage where none is due. Do you leave your house and car unlocked because millions of people wouldn't loot them? Do you see cars or houses sold without locks on the doors?

I'm not taking any offense at all. I'm just informing you that a select group of people in the medical profession in LA have never encountered this. She's also worked out of state, and never encountered this, and has friends working all over the country. Never has this come up with any of them.

Sure it may happen just as murders happen. But it is rare, and not a common occurrence in the health care field.

It's not the way the healthcare system is run. That's all I'm saying.

Neither my wife, nor her physician friends and colleagues get kickbacks for procedures. Never have they been pressured to admit people into a hospital to make money. I'm sure it happens in rare instances, but at least none of them have ever heard of it or done it.

NO they don't that is illegal, BUT they sure the hell get paid more for doing surgeries rather than meeting with patients doing preventative health care.

everything says

NO they don't that is illegal, BUT they sure the hell get paid more for doing surgeries rather than meeting with patients doing preventative health care.

You're generalizing people as being dishonest just because they can. Most people in the medical profession aren't doing it just for money. It's years of BS to finally make some money. Most surgeons are salaried BTW.

Most of the time, unnecessary tests and admittances come from doctors wanting to cover their butts from lawsuits.

AGAIN, why go after a specific ailment when you can run around in circles billing the insurance, looking for something else that you won't find. If your spending all your time trying to cover your ass, your obviously not spending that time wisely, or in the patients best interest!

Might I add, 40% of health care expenditures are administrative

You need to realize that the industry as a whole is collectively dishonest, and since your wife is a doc and makes big dollars, your in cahoots because of the gravy train.

nw888 says

everything says

NO they don't that is illegal, BUT they sure the hell get paid more for doing surgeries rather than meeting with patients doing preventative health care.

You're generalizing people as being dishonest just because they can. Most people in the medical profession aren't doing it just for money. It's years of BS to finally make some money. Most surgeons are salaried BTW.

everything says

You need to realize that the industry as a whole is collectively dishonest, and since your wife is a doc and makes big dollars, your in cahoots because of the gravy train.

It isn't that simple or deliberately nefarious. Read Noam Chomsky. It isn't usually a secret conspiracy, those are rare. It is rather the evolution of systems (memeplexes if you will), institutions that instill their own self-serving biases. Look at the Capitol auction, and the role of lobbyists, and see how evolution works. Whether on the Galapagos or in the Capitol, these combinations evolve. Most of the participants are able to believe that they are doing the right thing, or at least trying to, because they have imbibed the biases that they were taught. It isn't a secret conspiracy, but it isn't random or purely benign either, and the effect is to maximize revenue and power for the various systems. It's a bit like an anthill, except humans have (in some instances at least) a greater capacity for self-awareness and reflection than ants have; the individual ants serve the colony, probably without question, while a minority of individual humans have the curiosity to ask pesky non-conformist questions that enable them to see more of what is going on and why.

everything says

Most people don't even know that if you go on just a few simple fasting diets, your body, looking for fats to burn will pull the plaques out of your arteries, the body will clean itself up - but only if you let it. Doctors rarely advise natural healing methods.

So go for it when the time comes. No need for a doctor for a simple fasting diet. No one is walking you into a doctors office at the point of a gun so why are you bothered? Just don't go, pursue natural healing methods instead.