patrick.net

Eliminate ACA,go back to private insurance.No medical facility,public or private,will be required to treat any health problems without the ability to pay for service. No Pay,No Play.

How's that Free Enterprise now,Republicans? No money,then lay there & bleed.

HEY YOU says

Eliminate ACA,go back to private insurance.No medical facility,public or private,will be required to treat any health problems without the ability to pay for service. No Pay,No Play.

How's that Free Enterprise now,Republicans? No money,then lay there & bleed.

What free enterprise?

Unlike individual coverage employer based plan premiums are exempt from income and payroll taxes which mean for the same difference in take home pay employer plans can yield twice the premiums for insurers. These tax incentives mean most of us get our health insurance at work and don't have a viable alternative, especially after adverse selection is considered.

The federal and state governments pay for the 14.5% of us who are getting old and 15.9% of us who are poor which drives up health care prices for those that aren't old or poor enough to qualify just like government low income housing.

Where you pay for some or all of your care the market isn't free since you're competing with easy government money which boosts prices, both directly (31% of us get our insurance that way with those programs accounting for 44% of healthcare spending) and indirectly (via the special tax treatment of employer plans used by 55% of the insured population).

AMA lobbying means that you can't go to professionals with less training and resulting market which works with lower rates like nurses because they don't have licenses to practice medicine. For treatment and prescriptions you must go to a doctor. With four years of under graduate education, three years of medical school, a year of internship, and at least three years of residency the investment required to be a doctor dictates high returns plus those guys limit their number to keep prices up by lobbying to limit the number of residencies at government facilities.

Where prescription drugs are involved you can't buy in bulk at Costco with low overheads like you do 1000 packs of ibuprofen . Instead you compete with the easy money and pay pharmacists who've been through a lot of training which keeps their numbers down and costs up.

If Obamacare was about healthcare reform and not a trillion dollar per ten year tax funnel into the health care industries it would have applied not-for-profit solutions to the problems.

For example, they could have extended Medicare (which currently covers both the elderly and disabled) to people with pre-existing conditions who couldn't get insurance from private companies.

They could have provided above-the line deductions for people buying individual plans who are not self-employed, adjusted payroll taxes to match, and made individual policies a more viable option thus encouraging competition and lower prices.

Obviously that's not what happened.

Vaticanus says

CNN calls obamacare what it is, a subsidy tax paid to big insurance

Um, no they didn't say that. Maybe you dreamed it?

Vaticanus says

Paid by the young and healthy of course. Just another way young people in America are finding the American dream to be a thing of the past.

You are displaying your ignorance. 96% of applicants ages 21-27 will receive subsidies.

http://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/issue_briefs/2013/rwjf404637/subassets/rwjf404637_3

This is not going to bankrupt young people. You are a fool if you think it will. If you had actually READ your own article, you would have seen that the couple featured there are looking forward to being able to get insurance under Obamacare:

"I love what I do. New insurance will make this even better."

If you think the "American Dream" is to go without health insurance, you are a moron.

Ignorance marches on...

@homeboy just more condescending remarks.

The article's headline clearly states that Obamacare needs the young and healthy (meaning their money) to work.

Many people do not wish to pay for something they don't need or want. But insurance companies love it that people (or taxpayers via subsidies ) will now face tax penalties if they do not give them money/ransom in order to avoid the uninsured police.

@drew eckhardt

You make some excellent points. Which is why you/they will be ignored. These changes apparently don't line the right people's pockets or maybe they would actually work leaving the partisans nothing to squawk about. We need a pragmatist party or something like that to get real reform. Dems/Repubs are worthless powermongers more concerned with winning than results.

The Yutes in this country have been bent over a barrel and rode hard by this administration. They are being groomed to be needy Citizens dependent on the Socialist party.

Currently even the basic right of passages into adulthood, have been thrown out of range of the majority of people between 18 to 30. This demographic finds a kick in the teeth on every turn.

Want a car? - Well you better have well off parents who can foot the $300 a month car insurance bill. Sure while one could find a car to lease for less than $99 a month, most young people don't have either the down payment for the insurance, nor capable of making those monthly payments.

Need a Job so you can buy a car?- No it aint going to happen, thanks to Obamacare companies are this Monkey see Monkey do kick, and only hire part time employees at $7 t $8 an hour.

Wanna go to college to jump start a lucrative career? - Well you'll be in debt for 30 years, that will cripple your ability to save money, buy a house, have a family and be productive to society. That's if you can get the funding for college.

So what are they to do? - Well just stay at home, hang out with your friends, report to McDonald's like a social club, so you can earn extra money to support your beer and pot parties on your Mom and Dad's patio. You're covered on their insurance until you're 26 to 30. At which time you will be expected to jump out in the world ill prepared with the basic necessities to be functional adult with adult sized responsibilities and roles.
The Welfare office number should be printed on the back of their Social Security and registered Democrat voter cards, as they will see it more often in their lifetime than any potential employer ever will.

CaptainShuddup says

Want a car? - Well you better have well off parents who can foot the $300 a month car insurance bill.

Liability and uninsured motorist coverage for my adult children isn't 1/3 of that.

Sure while one could find a car to lease for less than $99 a month, most young people don't have either the down payment for the insurance, nor capable of making those monthly payments.

One can buy reliable cars like 1990s Honda Accords for $1500 which is 15 months of saving $99 a month car free or money a teenager can accumulate doing jobs like mowing lawns and babysitting when he or she doesn't waste money on things like smart phones. Putting 100,000 miles of one's own miles on such a used car at the average 16,000 miles a year implies a capital cost of $250/year or $21/month.

With no loan such cars also don't need comprehensive and collision coverage and people driving such cars are better off without those. When I last looked a few years ago (96 Honda Accord, 98 Audi A4) the numbers didn't make sense until you opted for a $750 deductible. The one time I made a claim for a broken windshield I spent $100 a year more for 3 years because I lost my no claim discount which makes for a $450 range of claims that make financial sense before a $1500 car is totaled. Save $20 a month for 2 years and if something bad happens you'll be in the same financial position you would be with such coverage.

Kids just can't buy sexy fancy newer cars.

Wanna go to college to jump start a lucrative career? - Well you'll be in debt for 30 years, that will cripple your ability to save money, buy a house, have a family and be productive to society. That's if you can get the funding for college.

It would suck less if the government hadn't messed with the system on behalf of corporatist interests through things like exemption of student loans from bankruptcy which lets them profit from loans that don't make sense with tuition bubbling up at 4X the rate of inflation since 1980 although kids can still go to college without crippling debt.

The first half of many four-year degree programs can be done at community college and the rest at state schools. As of 2012 in Colorado Front Range Community college was $105 per credit hour or $3150 per year and CU Boulder $11,000 for a total under $30,000 not the six figures some kids borrow to get photography degrees. The degree with summa cum laude distinction still says CU.

Kids just can't move out young, live in their own apartments, and party at fancy name brand schools at least one state away from their parents.

Lots of things are screwed up. The global labor market and automation mean a lot fewer entry level positions and lower pay to go with the ones that do exist. Government collusion with corporatist interests increasing prices of essentials like housing, education, and heath care mean that our pay doesn't go as far especially in entry level positions.

That said in a lot of situations the problem is that kids can't afford to live glamorously as seen in TV sitcoms not that they can't afford auto insurance, a car, or an education.

You're covered on their insurance until you're 26 to 30.

Without pre-existing conditions that's often more of a win for insurance companies than families. My share of employer provided coverage for dependents would be ~$400/month while prior to the Obamacare shenanigans I was paying $80 a month for my adult son's catastrophic policy. $2040 a year difference in take-home pay covers a lot more doctor visits than most healthy young people need and can quickly accumulate into an annual co-insurance sized chunk.

Vaticanus says

@homeboy just more condescending remarks.

How can I be anything but condescending when you put your ignorance on display for all to see?

Vaticanus says

The article's headline clearly states that Obamacare needs the young and healthy (meaning their money) to work.

Where does the article say it is a "a subsidy tax paid to big insurance"? Those are your words, and I cannot find them anywhere in the article.

Vaticanus says

Many people do not wish to pay for something they don't need or want.

You DO need health insurance. If you got cancer, for example, it could cost as much as a million dollars to treat. Most people don't have that kind of change lying around. So what happens? They go bankrupt, the bill never gets paid, and the cost of the treatment is passed on to everyone else. Not a good system.

You're only healthy until you get sick.

Vaticanus says

But insurance companies love it that people (or taxpayers via subsidies ) will now face tax penalties if they do not give them money/ransom in order to avoid the uninsured police.

If insurance companies "love" ACA so much - if ACA is just a scheme to make insurance companies rich, then WHY DID THE INSURANCE COMPANIES SPEND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO DEFEAT ACA?

Oh, yeah...there's that.

And I see you just ignored my point that 96% of young people will get subsidies to pay for insurance, so the law isn't putting an undue burden on anyone. Good plan there - just ignore anything you don't have an answer for. And you wonder why I'm condescending.

donjumpsuit says

On Christmas when I was 25, my intestines ruptured. I went to the emergency room, they decided that with no insurance, I should just wait it out, like it was a kidney stone or something.

But, but... young people are immortal. Vaticanus and Captain Dumbfuck said so.

Vaticanus says

@drew eckhardt

You make some excellent points. Which is why you/they will be ignored

Says the guy who ignores all my good points.

Homeboy says

If insurance companies "love" ACA so much - if ACA is just a scheme to make insurance companies rich, then WHY DID THE INSURANCE COMPANIES SPEND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO DEFEAT ACA?

It's a scheme to make the health care industries richer. PhRMA spent $150M to pass it once they had objectionable provisions like the re-import clause removed. While they'll do great in the long run the insurance executives had good reasons to oppose it in the short term:

Risk and having to answer to share holders who emphasize quarterly profits.

Insurance companies are inherently conservative. Their actuaries make projections based on historic loss data, they set rates which allow that plus overhead and profit, and they collect their premiums like clockwork. They do not make risky bets.

Obamacare has the potential to shake up the market. Will losses be higher than expected because the first people who sign up have pre-existing conditions and people decide it's less work to pay the fine than jump through the hoops to get subsidies? If they choose instead to delay participation in state exchanges like Aetna, Cigna, and United Healthcare who pulled out of California will they loose market share? A wrong bet here could ruin a company and therefore not playing the game is preferable. Not playing requires no Obamacare.

While in the long term things should work out well (families earning through the 75th percentile have their contributions capped, which will allow rates to go up) there will be volatility in the short term which might get a few executives tossed out or otherwise impact their pay. Only $1.3M out of United Health Group CEO Stephen Hemsley 's $13,890,000 2012 compensation package came as salary with the difference being a lot of money to loose.

Opposing Obamacare was the right business move for insurance executives at the time, just like supporting it was right for PhRMA.

Homeboy says

Vaticanus says

@drew eckhardt

You make some excellent points. Which is why you/they will be ignored

Says the guy who ignores all my good points.

You had good points, when?

Homeboy says

Many people do not wish to pay for something they don't need or want.

You DO need health insurance. If you got cancer, for example, it could cost as much as a million dollars to treat. Most people don't have that kind of change lying around. So what happens? They go bankrupt, the bill never gets paid, and the cost of the treatment is passed on to everyone else. Not a good system.

Bankruptcy may be the least of your worries.

I've talked to excellent sports medicine people whose goal is to have injured people performing at their prior (professional in some cases) athletic level as opposed to walking with a limp that just won't see people without insurance.

Along similar lines EMTALA only mandates medical care for life and limb threatening conditions. Medical facilities aren't required to provide non-emergency care such as rehabilitation to people who can't provide insurance or demonstrate the ability to pay.

If a car hits you being insured may make the difference between recovering most of your pre-accident functionality and not. It would suck to be you if that was required to do your job especially where disability insurance generally covers only 60% of your prior income up to a cap and often has a time limit past which the ability to do any work (like serve as a Wallmart greeter) cancels benefits.

I've noticed that car insurance similarlly requires all the people who aren't getting in to accidents to be insured.

Vaticanus says

CNN calls obamacare what it is, a subsidy tax paid to big insurance

Yeah, I don't see that they said that at all. I do understand what they did say.

Vaticanus says

You had good points, when?

All of them. For example, when I pointed out that 96% of young people will get insurance subsidies, and you ignored that point because you couldn't answer it. I made many other points, too. Try reading the thread.

drew_eckhardt says

It's a scheme to make the health care industries richer. PhRMA spent $150M to pass it once they had objectionable provisions like the re-import clause removed. While they'll do great in the long run the insurance executives had good reasons to oppose it in the short term:

You are conflating two different entities. PhRMA is a group of drug manufacturers, not a health insurance company. I pointed out that health insurance companies spent millions to defeat ACA. Your evidence of PhRMA's later influence on the design of the law does not disprove what I said. I am not naive enough to think that corporations do not influence legislation, but that is a far cry from claiming that the ENTIRE PURPOSE of ACA was to make insurance companies rich, or that it is nothing more than a "scheme". Insurance companies were making record profits overcharging for insurance and then dumping policyholders as soon as they got sick. I seriously doubt guaranteed issue was their idea.

drew_eckhardt says

Opposing Obamacare was the right business move for insurance executives at the time, just like supporting it was right for PhRMA.

Kaiser seemed pretty big on it. And didn't BlueCross write it, out of Baucus' office.

Insurance overheads isn't the long pole in the tent here, hospital costs are.

PPACA is the correct piecewise approach, since this country isn't politically mature enough to handle any bigger steps right now.

Just look at the current mess, with rightwing shitheads complaining about "sweetheart waivers" and whatnot, when the real issue they have is having to pay for poor peoples' care starting Jan 1.

Something I don't understand... Obamacare is supposed to have flexibility of prices based on age. Why shouldn't it be priced to market much cheaper and thus making it not a subsidy for other ages. What am I missing?

ja says

Something I don't understand... Obamacare is supposed to have flexibility of prices based on age. Why shouldn't it be priced to market much cheaper and thus making it not a subsidy for other ages. What am I missing?

There is a provision in the law that the differential in rates between subscribers of different ages cannot be over a certain amount - If memory serves, it's 3 times. So let's say for example that the actual cost of providing medical care for older people is 4 times the actual cost of providing medical care for younger people - they can only charge 3 times as much, so the younger people would be subsidizing the older people to some degree.

ja said: Why shouldn't it be priced to market much cheaper and thus making it not a subsidy for other ages. What am I missing?
AARP. This isn't Kansas; you're in BoomerlLand now. Also, with some justification, this motivates the market to look at healthcare costs for older folks.

humanity says

I've noticed that car insurance similarlly requires all the people who aren't getting in to accidents to be insured.

Exactly, and auto insurance is a great
way to spend money for nothing. Wasn't one of buffets first great investments in geico?

humanity says

I've noticed that car insurance similarlly requires all the people who aren't getting in to accidents to be insured.

She's a witch! Burn her! Burn her!

humanity says

I've noticed that car insurance similarlly requires all the people who aren't getting in to accidents to be insured.

Yes, and they also allow those that don't need car insurance, not to participate!

Why don't any of you heritage foundation ditto heads that blindly support ppaca, pine for divorcing health care, from health insurance?

That way young, healthy guys like me can pay cash when we go for a physical a couple times per decade, and then pay 20$ per month, just in case (insurance) some unforseen catastrophe should befall?

I've shipped off over 50k to health insurers and I'm only 32. In return, I've received three physicals. What kind of jackass thinks that is a good idea, economically? Are yous retarded?

Homeboy says

There is a provision in the law that the differential in rates between subscribers of different ages cannot be over a certain amount - If memory serves, it's 3 times. So let's say for example that the actual cost of providing medical care for older people is 4 times the actual cost of providing medical care for younger people - they can only charge 3 times as much, so the younger people would be subsidizing the older people to some degree

Thx! you are right

However, it doesn't look the difference respect no age ratio scenario is that much

http://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/issue_briefs/2013/rwjf404637

Pay a little bit more when you are young, receive a little bit more when you are old. A little bit like SS (and not as much)

errc says

I've shipped off over 50k to health insurers and I'm only 32. In return, I've received three physicals. What kind of jackass thinks that is a good idea, economically? Are yous retarded?

Lucky you... Now does anybody know which is the average money spent at 32?

Bellingham Bill says

Kaiser seemed pretty big on it. And didn't BlueCross write it, out of Baucus' office.

Neither organization is a for-profit insurance company.

Kaiser health plans are not-for-profit although their medical practices are physician-owned for-profit entities.

Blue Cross Blue shield was exclusively not-for-profit until they allowed licenses to be for-profit entities in 1994, although some of those organizations remain not-for-profit.

Insurance overheads isn't the long pole in the tent here, hospital costs are.

Right although it's the current insurance system which allows them to be so ludicrous.

ACA does nothing to fix that and will make things even worse by effectively legislating they spend more on care. With gross margins capped at 20% the only way insurance companies can profit more is by spending more.

For example I expect they'll "improve" prescription plans which only cover the non-patented forms of drugs (Prilosec) to include patented forms (Nexium) with the same active ingredient (in that case the molecule comes in mirror image forms where only one is bioactive) because a $20 markup on $80/month beats a $2 markup on $8 a month.

It'll also be better for patients to visit well-equipped "procedure centers" with facility fees instead of having things done at their doctors offices without.

>I've shipped off over 50k to health insurers and I'm only 32

Are you going to remain 32 years of age?

Paying a little more when young and paying a little less as old is a good trade-off.

All taxes come out of rents, since rents come out of disposable income.

Mandated cost-averaging in retirement and health-care are EXCELLENT public policies, not "retarded" at all.

We should double the SSA tax and double retirement payouts with it.

Get the money before the landlord takes it, or we'll just use it to bid up the cost of housing.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=n1S

real per-capita housing expenditures

drew_eckhardt says

ACA does nothing to fix that and will make things even worse by effectively legislating they spend more on care. With gross margins capped at 20% the only way insurance companies can profit more is by spending more.

yes, I saw this issue a long time ago . . .

PPACA is incremental. It solves some problems, but the system can't vend a pure solution yet, not without Democratic majorities on the order of the mid-1930s or mid-1960s.

Look how much propagandistic bullshit is being catapulted by the right against PPACA's mild & necessary changes. Device profit clawback tax, individual mandate.

ja says

Now does anybody know which is the average money spent at 32?

PPACA's rate for the $5000 deductible plan (all superman here needs) is $235/mo for 32 yos, $2820/yr, so that's half what he paid under the old regime.

John Bailo says

The reason is everyone will need some form of health care as they grow older. So these are fixed, per person costs, that can be estimated pretty good. If you provide one person with lower costs, then you have to take it from someone else. Hence, redistribution, not insurance.

Yes, but you can't predict which person will be the catastrophic cost one any more than you can predict which house will burn down. Your analogy doesn't work.

errc says

That way young, healthy guys like me can pay cash when we go for a physical a couple times per decade, and then pay 20$ per month, just in case (insurance) some unforseen catastrophe should befall?

I've shipped off over 50k to health insurers and I'm only 32. In return, I've received three physicals. What kind of jackass thinks that is a good idea, economically? Are yous retarded?

And when you're 72 you'll be complaining that the young whipper-snappers aren't paying their fair share. After all, at 72 you've "paid your dues" and the young punks should just respect their elders and pay up!

Bellingham Bill says

>I've shipped off over 50k to health insurers and I'm only 32

Are you going to remain 32 years of age?

Paying a little more when young and paying a little less as old is a good trade-off.

All taxes come out of rents, since rents come out of disposable income.

Mandated cost-averaging in retirement and health-care are EXCELLENT public policies, not "retarded" at all.

We should double the SSA tax and double retirement payouts with it.

Get the money before the landlord takes it, or we'll just use it to bid up the cost of housing.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=n1S

real per-capita housing expenditures

By this logic, progressives will be happy as long as SOMEONE'S taxes or other social program "witholdings" go up (or even better if everyone's go up).

Vaticanus says

By this logic, progressives will be happy as long as SOMEONE'S taxes or other social program "witholdings" go up (or even better if everyone's go up)

thats right!

we've been on a treadmill of rising housing and health costs:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=n3l

is % of wages directly going to healthcare and housing

the Bush tax cuts were quickly eaten by rising rents and home values.

Raise taxes, and future housing rent rises will meet that resistance.

All taxes come out of rents!

Theoretically.

John Bailo says

But what we seem to be talking about here is not "insurance", it's really income redistribution. The reason is everyone will need some form of health care as they grow older. So these are fixed, per person costs, that can be estimated pretty good. If you provide one person with lower costs, then you have to take it from someone else. Hence, redistribution, not insurance.

Well it's actually both. We had a purely insurance system, but obviously it didn't work, because some people couldn't afford to pay for it, and some people couldn't even GET it. So OF COURSE this is wealth redistribution. Your first clue should have been that it's called the AFFORDABLE Care Act.

We've had a couple decades now of wealth flowing UPWARD; I for one welcome anything that's going to reverse that.

By Call it Crazy Follow Mon, 7 Oct 2013, 3:41pm 15 views 0 comments
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The problems with the main Obamacare website – Healthcare.gov – appear to be more than just glitches.

The website on which millions of Americans are expected to sign up for health insurance in the next two months needs more than increased server capacity; it needs changes to its entire architecture, according to news reports.

And perhaps even more ominously for the Obama administration, some consumers are discovering that their premiums are going to skyrocket, and they are threatening just to pay the penalty and “self-insure.” Young adults, too, are pushing back on the requirement to buy insurance.

If enough healthy people don’t buy into the new system, leaving insurance companies with risk weighted toward unhealthy people who cannot be denied coverage, no matter the cost, the system will collapse.

http://news.yahoo.com/obamacare-glitches-why-might-help-end-government-shutdown-183213058.html

A fellow patneter just posted the above in another thread. Please note the last paragraph

Average bear also posted this reaffirming the CNN article referenced above. Thanks average bear.

The one big flaw that the MSM won't tell you about Obamacare: it depends on a ton of healthy young people to overpay for health insurance, with that money transferred to old, poor people and illegals. Once the word gets around and kids/young adults realize they are gonna get screwed, they are NOT going to sign up. And then Obamacare will fall like a house of cards. I'm getting the popcorn ready for this one.....
http://michaelgraham.com/obamacare-poster-boy-a-fraud-real-obot-story-worse/