patrick.net

Democrats won the first battle when they rammed Obamacare through congress, they even bribed Ben Nelson (for those who remember that Cornhusker Kickback).

It's the same fight all over again, this time Republicans have a bargaining chip of their own. This isn't going to end until both sides agree to something.

FortWayne says

Democrats won the first battle when they rammed Obamacare through congress, they even bribed Ben Nelson (for those who remember that Cornhusker Kickback).

It's the same fight all over again, this time Republicans have a bargaining chip of their own.

By this you mean "democrats had the votes to pass a law".

And "we republicans don't have the votes, but we can stage a coup."

It's clear you republicans don't believe in democracy.

FortWayne says

Democrats won the first battle when they rammed Obamacare through congress, they even bribed Ben Nelson (for those who remember that Cornhusker Kickback)

The first battle? The bill passed. It's a law. The war is over.

FortWayne says

It's the same fight all over again, this time Republicans have a bargaining chip of their own. This isn't going to end until both sides agree to something.

No--this is a completely different fight. This is about funding the government and paying our bills. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with existing laws.

Let's see, from housing to the goldbug-sky is falling routine. Sounds like a fad chaser and expert of nothing to me.

Like I posted to him a couple of days ago, the answer to everything is 'buy gold'.

freak80 says

Ceffer says

I can quickly reel off six upper middle class people who are not disabled and can work just fine that collect disability.

Dang, I need to get in on that racket. Can you show me how? ;-)

You need to speak to one of the people who work for the SRO's in downtown Los Angeles. They'll show you how to get state disability(not sure about social security disability though), how to get an SRO apartment(brand spanking new) for $50 a month, which kitchens are open when so you can get free food)even though you have $950 a mo disposible income), and oh yeah, they introduce you to whatever drug dealer is paying them a referal fee at the moment. You'll never want for anything!

dodgerfanjohn says

You need to speak to one of the people who work for the SRO's in downtown Los Angeles. They'll show you how to get state disability(not sure about social security disability though), how to get an SRO apartment(brand spanking new) for $50 a month, which kitchens are open when so you can get free food)even though you have $950 a mo disposible income), and oh yeah, they introduce you to whatever drug dealer is paying them a referal fee at the moment. You'll never want for anything!

West Coast here I come! ;-)

The dems are a bunch of spineless, self serving, limp wristed crooks. They stand for nothing, so of course they haven't anything to negotiate on behalf of.

If they were worth a shit, they'd pine for the rescheduling of marijuana or something of the like, that could help tens of millions of mericans that have been persecuted by the state.

They're even more pathetic then the repukes, which is no small accomplishment.

The senate could have just passes the government funding bill and avoided the shutdown altogether and I defy any democrat to explain why not doing so is the fault of anyone but Harry Reid and the democrats. They shut the government down!

Vaticanus says

The senate could have just passes the government funding bill and avoided the shutdown altogether and I defy any democrat to explain why not doing so is the fault of anyone but Harry Reid and the democrats. They shut the government down!

Why would they have to pass something they don't like in exchange of nothing?

You're like "give us the money and nothing bad will happen".
And "If the senate had folded and given us the money, nothing bad would have happened".

You think you can run the country through petty extortion?

Just who the republicans think they are?

"Why would they have to pass something they don't like in exchange of nothing?"
It is called passing a bill to fund the government which the house did while the senate failed to act. are you admitting the dens did not want to fund the government and created this theatrical shit down because they wanted to? That might be the most honest admission I have heard from the libs. They did not WANT to fund the government. They manufactured this whole "crisis" try and make Repubs look bad and the media is all over it and helping demonize republicans for passing a bill in the house that would have AVOIDED the shutdown altogether.

You are right, I don't see how after passing a bill in the house to fund the goverent and avoid a shutdown the democrats would blame republicans when the democrat majority in the senate said no and shut down the government.

Boo hoo! Nasty Repubs asked us to make a hard choice and we decided to shut government down.

Quick lets blame them before we lose the senate too!

Heraclitusstudent says

Vaticanus says

The senate could have just passes the government funding bill and avoided the shutdown altogether and I defy any democrat to explain why not doing so is the fault of anyone but Harry Reid and the democrats. They shut the government down!

Why would they have to pass something they don't like in exchange of nothing?

You're like "give us the money and nothing bad will happen".

And "If the senate had folded and given us the money, nothing bad would have happened".

You think you can run the country through petty extortion?

Just who the republicans think they are?

Its really not that complicated. The Republicans have total contempt for their opponents and think that just sitting down at the negotiating table with Democrats is a huge concession in itself and all that could be reasonably expected of them.

the help to buy should have been introduced 1st qtr 2008
which would have kept a bigger percentage of workers in
the construction industry, now there is a shortage of skilled workers, those in work are having to be offered pay rises to stay
with existing employer, and this is leading to massive
inflation,

Heraclitusstudent says

FortWayne says

Democrats won the first battle when they rammed Obamacare through congress, they even bribed Ben Nelson (for those who remember that Cornhusker Kickback).

It's the same fight all over again, this time Republicans have a bargaining chip of their own.

By this you mean "democrats had the votes to pass a law".

And "we republicans don't have the votes, but we can stage a coup."

It's clear you republicans don't believe in democracy.

Do you even know what the definition of democracy means? I can't stand it when people claim our country is a democracy. It's a republic.

Meaning the Republicans and Democrats are elected to represent their representatives. Now what's funny is congress approval rating is at an all time low but the democrats actually have a lower approval rating than the republicans. So I guess you can say that congress as a whole are "Batsh*! Crazy"

http://www.gallup.com/poll/165281/congress-job-approval-falls-amid-gov-shutdown.aspx

As for the Repubs taking action against the dems to stop Obamacare, well I can see why. First off, as long as interest rates remain low the country isn't broke and can pay its bills the problem is congress (esp. the Dems) don't want to make any spending cuts to pay for the bills they rather raise the deficit ceiling to borrow more money to fund the programs, which doesn't make any sense but whatever.

Second, has anyone ever recall any of these programs like social security, welfare, disability, and etc ever get reformed? I mean it's very clear they need to be reformed but they never do. So if Obamacare passes and we know it'll cost a ton more than what our representative claim it to cost, when the holes start to leak (just like with all the other programs) are we going to form it and patch it up to reduce costs? Negative we'll just do like what we did with all the other programs and in the past, borrow/print more money.

The Republicans see this as a last stand, now or never otherwise, it's likely that it won't stop at Obamacare.

Vaticanus says

Why not just pass the house bill? It would have avoided the shutdown. Nobody wants to talk about that. The house did its job. The senate failed to act.

Yes, it seems like the entire country including most of the Government has no idea how the country is supposed to operate Constitutionally.

The House, with advisement by the Senate, makes up the budget.

So the idea of the Representatives "stopping Obamacare" makes no sense. It is up to the House to propose budget items, not the President, who has the veto -- or "stopping" -- power.

spydah_hh says

The Republicans see this as a last stand, now or never otherwise, it's likely that it won't stop at Obamacare.

So, basically, they are like babies crying because they can't get their way. The people of the US elected their representatives, and those representatives voted to pass a bill reforming health care.

A minority of those representatives, having lost the vote, have decided to quit doing their jobs and throw a tantrum. Basically, they are like the kid who is losing at a board game and kicks all the pieces off the table and runs away crying.

Did I sum that up correctly? And you agree with that course of action??

tatupu70 says

representatives voted to pass a bill reforming health care.

No, the Supreme Court ruled they (the US Government) could not do that.

The only thing the Federal government can do is pass a healthcare tax, which is what Obamacare really is.

The current House does not want to impose that tax -- as is their right.

All of this is exactly as the Constitution directs government to act.

tatupu70 says

spydah_hh says

The Republicans see this as a last stand, now or never otherwise, it's likely that it won't stop at Obamacare.

So, basically, they are like babies crying because they can't get their way. The people of the US elected their representatives, and those representatives voted to pass a bill reforming health care.

A minority of those representatives, having lost the vote, have decided to quit doing their jobs and throw a tantrum. Basically, they are like the kid who is losing at a board game and kicks all the pieces off the table and runs away crying.

Did I sum that up correctly? And you agree with that course of action??

I don't think they're crying because they're not getting their way. They (along with many others in this country) don't believe that this is best for the country.

Yes it was voted but wasn't it voted when the Democrats controlled the house and senate? Hard to prevent that from not passing.

In fact many believe Obamacare is a bad idea and it has low approval ratings.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/06/06/dont-sweat-obamacares-low-approval-ratings/

So no, I don't think they're crying I think they're trying to prevent a terrible law from being a status quo in our country.

John Bailo says

No, the Supreme Court ruled they (the US Government) could not do that.

The only thing the Federal government can do is pass a healthcare tax, which is what Obamacare really is.

The current House does not want to impose that tax -- as is their right.

All of this is exactly as the Constitution directs government to act.

No, that's actually not true at all. If the House wants to not implement an existing law, a member can introduce a bill to repeal or change the existing law.

They already passed the bill and created the law. In doing so, they have agreed that it will be funded.

This is NOT at all how the Constitution directs government to work.

Vaticanus says

You can tell who is the most desperate here with all the Dems whining about
the shutdown. Clearly they are the ones who are running scared.

Democrats may be more concerned with defaulting (and the shutdown) than Republicans because they understand the damage the shutdown has already done to our economy, and understand the damage it will continue to do economically and morally.

Democrats also understand the consequences of default. You have a significant portion of the Tea party going on record that we woldn't default, as we would pay the interest on the debt!

As if that matters one bit.

You cannot hold hostage the nation - that is not a negotiation. If the house wants to lower spending - they should offer alternatives to cutting Obamacare. This offer is being rejected. They are trying to make the argument that it is really about spending and what needs to be reigned in. Well, if that is the position - then offer spending cuts in other areas. Obamacare is a non-starter.

The Republicans are offering nothing. They are making demands and holding hostage the debt limit and budget. That is not a compromise - that is a hostage situation. The democrats get nothing in return. Why would they agree to defund Obamacare?

What are the republicans offering in return? (90% tax on incomes over 10 million?

control point says

Democrats also understand the consequences of default. You have a significant portion of the Tea party going on record that we woldn't default, as we would pay the interest on the debt!

This to me is the bigger concern of this whole situation: Many of those "Tea Party"/Astroturf politicians have hardly any grasp on how real economics work, let alone the debt ceiling. All they know is that it has the word "debt" in and so it surely must be bad versus what it really is, which is simply a means to pay bills. If they had their way the economy would go immediately into an uncontrolled depression.

And your point being? As someone with a background in this area I can tell you that a 1.65 avg. completion rate is rather high.

Think of this in another way: Assume that company "X" comes out with a new product. The product is advertised via a number of channels. In real life schenarios, a .50%-1.00% completion rate is considered good across the board and hence what you just reported shows a better than average to an excellent sign up rate.

Not bad considering there are some technical glitches with the sites.

edvard2 says

This to me is the bigger concern of this whole situation: Many of those "Tea
Party"/Astroturf politicians have hardly any grasp on how real economics work,
let alone the debt ceiling.

They bitch about the amount of debt and how it is a problem when interest rates are at historical lows. No clue.

Same mindset of people who would pay cash for a car instead of borrowing it at 0%. (or 1%) They don't understand opportunity cost. Meanwhile the stock market is up 15% YTD. Even AAA rated corporate debt is ~4%.

A 5 year CD at 1.5% is better than paying cash if interest rates for five years are 0%.

Interest rates are low, so the market is determining the amount of debt we have is not a risk. The risk premium is nonexistent.

edvard2 says

Many of those "Tea Party"/Astroturf politicians have hardly any grasp on how real economics work, let alone the debt ceiling. All they know is that it has the word "debt" in and so it surely must be bad versus what it really is, which is simply a means to pay bills.

That's what Mugabe says!

mell says

That's what Mugabe says!

You do realize that inflation in Zimbabwe since late 2009 has closely tracked inflation in the US, right?

Since they abandoned their currency and use US dollars mostly....

sbh says

They get their understanding from hatred and prayer. That's all they need.

Not really. They get their understanding from the large billionaire/corporate lobby-backed investments that created the so-called "party" they claim to be from. This little experiment we've seen in congress is nothing more than outside money trying to force legislation that serves to benefit those interests. Nothing more. All that was needed were to find the right people who were generically "conservative" enough who could be counted on to appeal to a largely predictable demographic to get them into office.

When the dust clears I really hope that not only Democrats, but in particular Republicans take a hard look at what caused this whole thing to get out of control. The GOP in particular needs to grow a pair and learn to say no to this group. They need to do so not only for the benefit of their own party, but for their constituency.

Luckily I do feel that at this juncture, this latest act will be the last for the tea party. Perhaps then the GOP can actually get back to being at least somewhat reasonable.

control point says

Interest rates are low, so the market is determining the amount of debt we have is not a risk. The risk premium is nonexistent.

Oh boy, It's 1999 and 2008 all over again. You can't be serious, right?

The outrages multiply!

Obamacare is a backhanded slap in the face of George Washington's corpse. I can imagine only three greater outrages in the history of the planet: The Travel Office Firings - [spits on ground] - the Permian-Triassic Extinction, and Benghazi!.

edvard2 says

The GOP in particular needs to grow a pair and learn to say no to this group.
They need to do so not only for the benefit of their own party, but for their
constituency.

The teabag morons will for the most part get voted out, except in the wacko places like all of Texas.

And the republican party will go right back to them simply becasue they call them their 'base', and it's out of necessity and numbers.

mell says

Oh boy, It's 1999 and 2008 all over again. You can't be serious, right?

Debt instruments are fundamentally different in valuation than Housing (2008) and Stocks (1999).

Rates on a long term instrument, such as the 30 year, are the geometric mean of all of the yields of shorter term instruments plus a risk premium. That is, it is the nth root of all n intermediate yields plus some factor for risk.

Conversely, rates ona short term instrument can be derived from long term instrument minus the risk premium.

All of this is to say that the when we have a upward sloping yield curve, the market is pricing in the expectation of increasing interest rates in the future or is adding risk premium.

Its why you can can a 5/1 ARM at 2.5% but a 30 year fixed rate is 3.5%.

Since inflation (and rates) are at historical lows right now, and the slope of the yield curve remains modest, the upward slope is mostly driven by expectation of interest rate increase in the future. Therefore no risk premium.

Think about it. Smart guys are betting their own money on solvency (ability to pay back the debt) for 30 years with no risk premium attached.

Stocks and houses are valuated differently.

There needs to be a federal proposition system in place ( like California ) to override the power of the fuckups that we elect.
For starters, I propose congress cannot exempt themselves from any laws they pass that the rest of us are forced to follow.

control point says

Think about it. Smart guys are betting their own money on solvency (ability to pay back the debt) for 30 years with no risk premium attached.

The long-term bond yields are significantly higher than a year ago and are influenced by the debt monetization of the Fed to a certain extent. They are still low but they will keep going higher and that will be brutal for the US debt. The US will not be able to pay back its debt without either selectively defaulting or inflating their way out of it. The latter is the more convenient option, but it's a dangerous game and crushing for the middle class. There are no smart guys, you should only rely on yourself.

The GOP has deteriorated so badly it makes me miss Newt Gingrich.

Socially liberal and fiscally conservative is not a party-affiliation, so stop calling me names, i.e. "Democrat" or "Republican". Neither one fits and is an insult ;) There are a couple of members in both parties though that approximate those views.

I'm not getting the subsidy, but I might sign up next year when our current insurance needs to renew. I do wish it was cheaper.

mell says

Barry's mission.

That's a far-right shibboleth.

mell says

If you consider Ron Paul a full-blown Republican, then you can call me a Republican ;)

I consider Ron Paul to be a dangerous crank. At least on economic issues.

I do give him credit for being against unnecessary wars.

Negotiation = socialism!

As a fake independent/libertoonian pretending to be equally disgusted with both parties, I find it obvious that those with extremely conservative views are the only legitimate lawmakers. Negotiation is like Christians compromising with atheists and Catholics: one side is, by definition, right.

mell says

Why is it so hard to believe that there are people so thoroughly turned off by how this presidency turned out that they turned their backs?

Oh I do in fact believe there are people who think like this but since they were in the minority and the majority of Americans voted Obama into office, then by the nature of how democracy works, he is the President. That's how it all works. So I'm not sure why this seems to be some sort of mystery.