patrick.net

That's good, I think that's the way TPTB, taxers, n bankers would want it.
This is a consumer driven economy, they are consuming, or being consumed, makes no difference to the financial systems.

And why home prices cant rise

No matter how much QE or low rates

Fucking Teatard.

He sounded like a typical 16 year old making excuses.
He ranted on Obamacare and shifted fault to everything but the lack of tought or planning that went into Obamacare, nor did he address that nobody even read the bill when it was passed.
He sugar coated the 100,000's of people that registered at the site, and did not buy coverage, claiming they were unable to choose a plan. But then in conclusion he wrapped up by saying people can browse plans just fine, that it has worked all along. So how does that work?

People aren't buying insurance through the exchange because 80% of the people who don't qualify for subsidies can't afford the premiums. And even those with subsidies still wont be able to cover their portion of the premium.

For a family working at McDonald's who for what ever reason don't qualify for Welfarecare, most likely wont be able to afford even a reduced $80 a month premium.

Shit you can't even buy two sacks of groceries for $80 these days.

The Democrats and Obama are so far out of touch with reality of the economy and plight of the working families they have become fairy tale characters more than Civil servants and politicians.

Obamacare was only created to pluck the pigeons, and America knows it.

Bill Clinton is a really smart guy, but I don't think he thought this one through. The way the system worked before is that you could get these catastrophic insurance policies, but then if you got a serious illness, you could end up bankrupt. I believe some of them didn't even cover hospitalization. The thing was, if you got sick, you couldn't then say, "Oh, by the way, I want to sign up for the good insurance that actually covers my illness", because the insurance company would simply say, "Pre-existing condition. Fuck you." So you would be SOL.

But NOW, insurance companies are legally barred from saying "fuck you". They HAVE to sell you an insurance policy, and they can't ask you if you have a pre-existing condition.

Well, you're only healthy until you're not, if you know what I mean. So would we allow the "I'm healthy right now at this moment" crowd to buy insurance policies that don't cover anything for pennies, and then when they get sick, suddenly sign up for the good policy that covers everything? O.K., who's gonna pay for that? How long do you think the system will remain solvent if everyone is on the $40/month bare bones plan and then just switches to the good plan after they get sick? As it is, the "young invincibles" will pay MUCH less than older people. That's not good enough for them? They want to pay nothing at all?

WTF? How can he change his mind? It's the LAW, remember?

WOW! The UNtrustworthy are certainly in control of what information is apparent to the people!

Say hey! This was in the Wall Street Journal on March 30, 1999. Note "... how much it will buy."

Holy cow/interesting/compelling ...!

And where is it up to date??? Right here ... see the first chart shown in this thread.
Recent Dow day is Thursday, November 14, 2013 __ Level is 101.3

WOW! It is hideous that this is hidden! Is there any such "Homes, Inflation Adjusted"? Yes! This was in the New York Times on August 27, 2006:

And up to date (by me) is here:
http://patrick.net/?p=1219038&c=999083#comment-999083

WOW! The UNtrustworthy are certainly in control of what information is apparent to the people!

And http://patrick.net/?p=1230886

Given the fecal/oral route preferred by both, the comparison is valid.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

Should the NAR Be Classified as a Disease Like Cholera?

No. It's a terrorist group!

I hear all real estate agencies are trained in Benghazi!

And as a terrorist group, rather than a disease, we can use drone strikes on the NAR!

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

PA GOP ICON Facing Investigation for Savage, Wanton Sex Attack

That's part of the GOP platform. Why do you hate freedom?

When our elected officials are not allowed to exercise their god-given right to primae noctis, freedom has no meaning and the terrorist have won.

Just in Tina turner renounces her us citizenship
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/13/tina-turner-relinquishes-us-citizenship-_n_4268870.html

They are disease vectors, but their condition per se is not a disease.

They're actually a degenerate subspecies - evolution does not necessarily mean improvement - known to infest all habitable parts of the world and Oxnard, California. Perhaps fortunately, interbreeding with homo sapiens produces realtor children, so a chromosome count is always unambiguous.

He had reason to believe she possessed WMDs.

That is the hope, yes.

Swerving to hit one is already somewhere below owning an unregistered bicycle as a target of prosecutorial interest. The cops are so busy fisting and administering enemas all day that I doubt they'd notice any act committed against a realtor.

By the way: Is there any evidence of a serious crime here?

Has his raping her prevented her from visiting any veteran's memorial of her choosing? Can he present a long-form birth certificate? Did any underling or representative of his spin talking points about an attack on a consulate? Can she keep her plan?

By Republican standards, I'd need to see the answers to these questions before drawing any conclusions about the man.

We are slowly starting to resemble East germany.

A whole 2000 people of 315 million. Where are we going to get enough airplanes and ships to take them all away?

That's what he gets for not giving her a Nordstrom's charge card first.

What an idiot, thinking sex is free or something.

I prefer to think of them as painful, itching hemorrhoids.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

YES!

Sidewinder missile strikes on the NAR will cleanse our nation!

Sidewinders? I hadn't realized they could be used in air-to-ground capability. Seems they can indeed:

Anti-tank variant

China Lake experimented with Sidewinder in the air-to-ground mode including use as an anti-tank weapon. Starting from 2008, the AIM-9X demonstrated its ability as a successful light air-to-ground missile.[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-9_Sidewinder

If not there's always the tried and true Hellfire.

Homeboy says

Look, this is a chart of wealth disparity in the U.S.:

how many Madonna CDs, Tapes, and LPs did you manage to buy over
the past decades... yes, she done well alright !

bob2356 says

Oh bullshit. You posted the half the cbo information saying repealing the aca would increase the federal budget deficit. The implication is clear, that aca is somehow saving money therefore reducing the budget deficit. That's dishonest in any book.

Fucking nonsense. I posted the part that shows it's not a "fiscal shit storm". Believe me, I'm not keeping secrets from you. If you're such a fucking moron that you imagined the strawman that I was saying ACA somehow has a NEGATIVE cost, well I can't help you. You can imagine what you want, but I don't make idiotic arguments like that. But hey, keep punching that straw man if it makes you happy.

bob2356 says

What's with your obsession with twisting facts to make the aca look better than it is?

I didn't twist anything. What's YOUR obsession with making up strawman arguments? Again, you can't call something a "fiscal shit storm" if it's PAID FOR. We all know taxes were added: tanning beds, "cadillac" plans, high wage-earners, and medical device manufacturers, not to mention the penalty for not having insurance. These things pay for the system. So what do you think - you think that I KNEW all this and I lied and pretended like ACA is some kind of magic that gives people subsidies AND reduces the deficit, WITHOUT any income coming in, even though I'm ON RECORD here talking about the taxes multiple times? Fuck you. That is not what I EVER said.

bob2356 says

Why won't you face up to the reality that the aca doesn't lower the cost of health care one cent. It only changes who pays. I will completely agree with you that aca will be a success if shuffling payers is your only criteria

Excuse me, dick - I never SAID it's going to lower healthcare costs overall. I said it has slowed the rate of increase, and I said it provides subsidies for those who can't afford insurance. You can fucking well look up my posting history. Let me know when you find a post where I said rates are going down on overall average. Never said it. You may have IMAGINED I said that, but I did not.

So, if the rate of premium increase has slowed, and people can't be denied insurance, and policies are covering more essential benefits than they used to, and people who need financial help are getting subsidies, aren't we better off? I think we are. I'd sure love to hear your reasoning as to how this is worse than double-digit annual rate hikes, millions denied insurance, and illness being the number one cause of bankruptcy.

This is not just "shuffling who pays". It's certainly going to do that, but it's not a zero-sum game like you think it is. The exchanges HAVE increased competition between insurance companies and resulted in rates that came in even lower than expected. Admittedly, it's working better in the blue states, since the red states are doing everything they can to sabotage the process, but it is happening. Also, people HAVE been getting rebates from the medical loss ratio provision. But no, that's not enough to completely offset the costs of the subsidies and the cost of insuring high-risk people, and I never SAID it was. To a certain extent, the wealthy are paying a bit more in taxes in order for everyone to have a fair chance to get insurance. Sorry that bothers you; it really doesn't bother me a bit.

Are you scared to actually debate me without making up a false position that I never took? I usually like your posts, Bob, but right now you're acting like a little bitch.

It rather depends on where that "excess credit" is going, doesn't it?

You guys are really grasping at some long straws. Not that it means much seeing as how polls and silly cartoons don't deter from the facts that conservatives are always wrong anyway...

Has she lied 29 times yet?

that's rite... how easy I and others who don't think like right wingers forget that when and if anything comes out that happens to not prescribe to right-wingy ideology that it surely must be the "lib-ral Media!"

Yes... how convenient. I just read a story that the earth is actually round. Lies I tell ya', Lies! Must be that thar' lib-ral media!

I just also read a story that was actually above a 6th grade level of intelligence. Must be that lib-ral media again cuz' education is a lib-ral thing anyway.

Call it Crazy says

The news about the President's signature legislative accomplishment continues to get worse.

Do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you quote a website with the slogan "combating liberal media bias" as though it were news?

Is that really where you get your information? Explains a lot.

Using your reasoning it would also be accurate to say that more people who believe in creationism; the world is 6000 years old; and that science behind climate change is false, watch Fox News.

I feel like the "Liberal media" thing comes up on this site a lot and each and every time the same nonsense is mentioned. Nonsense since the BIGGEST cable news channel in the US is in fact conservative. That and conservative talk shows totally dominate the AM frequency nation-wide, of which has millions of daily listeners, especially in middle America.

I'd go further and say conservative media is actually more effective at delivering its message since whatever is mentioned on those channels can RELIABLY be counted on to be repeated by its listeners. There isn't a single day that I have to wonder what the resident conservative commentators on this site will say: They simply repeat verbatim what they've heard on their chosen conservative news and media outlets.

That's just the thing: I happen to have more than a few conservative friends and of them, most actually hate these talk shows and other forms of conservative media because in their opinion they're not only stupid, but it also detracts from useful and constructive conversation. Conservative media is not about solving problems or having real debates. Its simply all about conservatives versus liberals and nothing else. And hence why we have a stalemate. I can respect and appreciate a intelligent debate with people who might have an opinion that differs from mine. But when its simply a repeat of cheap talking points made on a infomercial-supported hot air talk show then forget about it.

edvard2 says

I feel like the "Liberal media" thing comes up on this site a lot and each and every time the same nonsense is mentioned. Nonsense since the BIGGEST cable news channel in the US is in fact conservative. That and conservative talk shows totally dominate the AM frequency nation-wide, of which has millions of daily listeners, especially in middle America.

Ed,
i couldn't fit your entire quote, but I agree w/ some of it. My beef w/ the MSM, is that not that it doesn't shed bad light on anyone w/ a 'D' hanging after their name. It's that it doesn't report the very valid news that would shed that bad light. That's the problem. I would take CNN, NBC etal more seriously if they mentioned the events that are relevant; then let the viewer decide or how he/she will digest that new. How 'bout a news organization that brings out a relevant event, mention what went wrong, mention the politician's name, and DON'T mention the party affiliation (Fox included too on this). Let the viewer do their homework via curiosity, and find out which party they belong to... To me that would be refreshing.

As a conservative, I don't watch Hannity, Greta, etc. I don't listen to Rush. He 'projects', which I absolutely abhor (just like sbh here on 'ol pat.net)...... I do watch the first 10 minutes of O'Reilly's 'talking points', and then flip to the Bruins game. I do read Michelle Malkin and Krauthammer online. Is a news organization (lib or con) supposed to offer a solution to the problems that both Rupublicans and Democrats cause? I don't think it's their responsibility.

But outside of Fox and talk radio, and a handful of newspapers in major cities, the rest is liberal leaning... Yes Fox is big, but outnumbered by how many liberal leaning networks? (CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC, ABC) That's 5 to 1, and I'm probably forgetting a couple more. The newspaper scene/ratio is even worse. I'd say the internet is a wash.

I live in a VERY liberal part of Massachusetts, outside of Boston. I've been goaded into political arguments at parties years ago, that I didn't want to participate in. I have a TON of liberal friends, of which most are respectful, and undestand limits, being tactful, yet know when to 'throw 'em down' in a discussion.

My point being, is that for the most part, you'll have civility among libs and cons. It's just the small % on both sides that give each group a black eye. And that is unfortunate.

She needs a beard. Economists without beards look weird. Beards make it harder to see the lips moving, which means they are lying.

Also, you can always tell what they had for lunch.

Saying that politicians lie is stating the obvious.

Rather, a scorecard about where they lied, why they lied, and what they plan on lying about next.

More Stupid People Trust Fox News
I can't watch any of the MSM any more. They all seem to "Perform" "Commentary",repeat sound bites, or try to sell books from their present guest. Damn! Now I've got to research "journalism".

While I'm at it, DIE! Main Slime Media,DIE!

The only source for the truth is comments on Patnet.

CaptainShuddup says

Dan8267 says

stupider

Is that even a word that a person speaking on this topic should even be using?

Yes

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stupider

zzyzzx says

And that would be fine if there was a horde of dumb asses behind Fox News in jury-rigged Congressional districts electing assholes who literally shut down the government during a time of war and massive unemployment in order to kill a law in a way not subscribed by the Constitution.

Averagebear,
For once I believe we are in some agreement. To be honest, I think most cable news is crap anyway. It seriously barely scratches the surface of any story meaning that anyone who uses it as a news source likely doesn't understand what the details behind the stories are. Too much of the content in most largescale news outlets pertains to what the opinions of their various commentators say.

News is more or less entertainment to most people these days. That's the problem. Many people also tend to have an increasingly limited attention span. Nobody sits to read a newspaper anymore because they can simply look it up instantly. There is more information available than ever but this has also made people inherently lazy.

I live in a very liberal part of the Bay Area but grew up in the total stark-opposite environment in the very rural and conservative South. So I have experienced what you experienced in reverse. In fact, I wasn't very political at all when I was living in the South. It seemed to me that people more or less kept the politics under the rug: it was something you were not supposed to talk about in public because we all knew that our opinions might be different than others. I never though that was very healthy. Sure- we all disagree, but so what?

The question is how do we start having those civil discussions? I believe the answer lies with a person's ability to think constructively.

Only, and it's the whole Rupert Murdoch empire that's evil.

Homeboy says

Excuse me, dick - I never SAID it's going to lower healthcare costs overall. I said it has slowed the rate of increase, and I said it provides subsidies for those who can't afford insurance. You can fucking well look up my posting history. Let me know when you find a post where I said rates are going down on overall average.

Dick? Sorry the name is bob. I never said anything about a "fiscal shit storm", I guess that makes you the "fucking moron" if you can't keep who you are replying to straight. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Stop projecting that anytime makes a point there's a quote from you involved. Sometimes people just make general points.

Again your obsession with praising aca overrides the reality. Either you confuse health care costs with premiums or you are throwing out misdirections to make aca look better. Health care costs could be high even if no insurance was involved at all. In Cuba and Switzerland costs are pretty high for example without insurance being involved. The fact is the huge cost of health insurance is a very big part of the overall costs of health care and aca increases the involvement of health insurance.

The entire point of health care reform is supposed to be to lower health care costs overall. Aca doesn't do that. In my opinion aca is more about providing a signature piece of legislation for democrats to boost their political fortunes rather than a serious effort to provide any real reform. I don't have a lot of sympathy that it's blowing up in their faces.

Homeboy says

I said it has slowed the rate of increase

ACA has SLOWED the costs of premium increases? How is that possible? There is only one months data. Are you sure you know the difference between past, present, and future tense? The costs of premium increases won't be slowed by aca as some immutable law like the sun rising in the east, They are projected to be slowed by the same people that projected a million people signing up on the health care exchanges the first month. Premium increases have been low by historical standards (although still high on the order of 3-4% most years with a couple years 8-9%, certainly NOT double digit) since the early 2000's. I will reserve judgement on the further lowering of the rate of increases until it happens, as in over a course of years. Maybe you should do the same. Believe it or not financial projections by government don't always work out.

From the WSJ March 22nd:
"In a private presentation to brokers late last month, UnitedHealth Group Inc., the nation's largest carrier, said premiums for some consumers buying their own plans could go up as much as 116%, and small-business rates as much as 25% to 50%. The company said the estimates were driven in part by growing medical costs not directly tied to the law. It also cited the law's requirements that health status not affect rates and that plans include certain minimum benefits and limits to out-of-pocket charges, among other things.

Jeff Alter, who leads UnitedHealth's employer and individual insurance business, said the numbers represented a "high-end scenario,"

This was a presentation from the largest insurance carrier to it's brokers to keep them informed. So there is no reason not to believe it. It's the high end worst case numbers but it still points to healthy increases coming in 2014. If you really think you can cut out the lowest cost, lowest coverage plans and heap on additional expensive requirements and somehow through the magic of "exchanges" lower premiums overall (the key word is overall, not for one group or another) then good on you mate. I don't see any realistic numbers on how this is possible.

Homeboy says

To a certain extent, the wealthy are paying a bit more in taxes in order for everyone to have a fair chance to get insurance. Sorry that bothers you; it really doesn't bother me a bit.

Are you scared to actually debate me without making up a false position that I never took? I usually like your posts, Bob, but right now you're acting like a little bitch.

The wealthy are paying a little more in taxes? That's it? That's your position? Really? People from 50-65 use 6 times as much care as people from 18-40. Under aca the former group will pay about 3 times the premiums of the latter group. People from 50-65 have much higher wealth than people from 18-40. Uninsured people from 18-40 (where most of the uninsured are) are going be forced to pick up insurance or pay penalties. There are massive subsidies from the young who can least afford it to the old who should be able to, although many can't. Aca isn't going to work at all unless large numbers of uninsured young people sign up.

This would be all a very good thing for me personally since I'm well into the the first group. But I see it as just one more example of the greedy self centered baby boomers (embarassed to say my generation) fucking everyone else. Yes it bothers me and it should bother you. Yes it is a zero sum game. How can it be anything else. There is only so much money in the country. All spending on health care comes out of something else. Baby boomers shuffling around the chairs on the deck of the titanic while locking the gates to steerage class (the young) is just unacceptable in my mind.

Obama had a golden opportunity to do real health care reform and blew it. Which is really a shame since it's really the only major legislation that will come out of 8 years in office. One of the poorest records of any president. Even though I didn't support him, I had expected more.

Homeboy says

So, if the rate of premium increase has slowed, and people can't be denied insurance, and policies are covering more essential benefits than they used to, and people who need financial help are getting subsidies, aren't we better off? I think we are. I'd sure love to hear your reasoning as to how this is worse than double-digit annual rate hikes, millions denied insurance, and illness being the number one cause of bankruptcy.

I don't know it's better and you don't either. You are projecting it will be better. I will reserve judgement. If it turns out to be great then I will be thrilled. The law of unintended consequences has a way of raising it's ugly head. There are many ways it could go badly wrong.

What I do know is you, as well as the writers of the aca, are fixated on the concept of providing health insurance when the true issue is providing health care. They are not one and the same or even close. I can fully understand the motivations of the writers of aca, maximizing benefits to campaign contributors while pleasing the largest amount of voters. I don't understand your unlimited enthusiasm.

We are stuck with aca now, but that doesn't mean it's a good piece of legislation or that there weren't much better options.

As much as you guys hate to admit it there is no such thing a liberal bias in the mainstream media.

There is reality, and there is fiction.

It's why we joke abut reality having a well known liberal bias.

It is a conservative strategy to discount reality because it does not favor them. When I say conservative, I mean creationists. And I mean hard money Fed cultists. I mean free market laissez-faire plutocrats.

I can admit it has been a disaster on roll out and criticize Obamacare. I can admit Obama has not done what he campaigned on - for reasons of his own and because he has been challenged by a minority in ways never before seen. This is reality, and I can accept it and put the blame where it belongs. Obama shares fault.

A Fox news banner waving, Fed hating Creationist cannot admit that any of his beliefs are incorrect, his policies are not effective. This is reality but he cannot accept it.