patrick.net

tatupu70 says

Having lost that principle, along with the loss of interest income thanks to FED ZIRP policy, the oldster savers are having less money to spend

The interest income is low but so is the inflation rate. That's what happens during a recession.

Not the consumer staples, and most certainly not medical expense.

Oldster savers are not the drivers of an economy anyway.

Unemployment takes place on the margins. Oldsters are the biggest net consumers, especially on discretionary spending.

Maybe,soon, we will totally exit both wars on which the Republicans happily enjoyed spending $4-$6 trillion.
Hope you Rep/Con/Teas enjoy dumping this tax burden on your children & grandchildren.
I forgot! We don't have to fund anything.

Cypher this. What % of $4 trillion is $10 Billion?

That's the problem with Keynesian economics, what happens next is a black box for them, they have no clue or idea what the end game is. Well they know, but by then those that create the Keynesian policies have already cashed out and living on an island.
While free markets are left to clean up the mess.

Anything is only worth what someone is either willing to pay, or capable of paying. Right now there's just too many "Willing" to pay high prices.

If home prices drop, then there will be many people who had to take their lumps. If home prices drop and it becomes too expensive to build, then the leaches, roaches and rats that have the natural and manufactured resources out of touch with fundamentals, will just have to pull out those investments as well. And the price becomes based on supply and demand.

If you make drywall, either you'll meet the demand at what ever price, or you'll simply fold and let another innovator take over who can meet those demands for that new set price.

Keynesian love to strike fear in everyone, if their standard of living falls, then all hell will break lose. And 90% of the bastards they preach that shit to, stand absolutely nothing to lose. In fact they would stand more to gain by the reality. As a seat at the Keynesian economic structure table is closed club, that takes an act of congress to get a seat at the table, to sell your solar panels, batteries, wind mills and god knows what all else.

Lets be clear they damn sure don't make things more affordable.

Supply and Demand will have its final say.

edvard2 says

Those were two examples of many others. You are incorrect about some of AMC's platforms as well, with one, for example used in the Dodge Intrepid well into the 2000's

No not at all true. There were no common parts between the premier platform and the lh platform. Castaing used many idea's from the premier like engines mounted longitudinally, but no parts or tooling.

edvard2 says

Those were two examples of many others. You are incorrect about some of AMC's platforms as well, with one, for example used in the Dodge Intrepid well into the 2000's.

If you are referring to Dodge Intrepid (and the LH platform), then you are arguing for me: the buyout of AMC by Chrysler did not end the LH platform.

edvard2 says

Modular engineering in carmaking means major components that are interchangeable and independently upgradable, unlike the previous platform engineering approach. BMW's "flexible manufacturing" led the new engineering approach.

This is nothing new. This in fact has almost always been the case right up to the advent of the auto assembly line. For example, Ford made numerous versions of the "Windsor" family of engines that ranged from V6 and V8 models and in many cases the same components were used. As a classic car owner myself I can attest to this, seeing as how many parts that will fit a 302 also happens to fit the 289, 351, and others.

Nothing is ever new if you look back far enough. Even the electric car pre-dated the gasoline engine. The devil is in the details.

Reality says

Not the consumer staples, and most certainly not medical expense.

Overall inflation rate is low. Some things rise faster than the rate, some slower. That's why it's called a weighted average.

bob2356 says

No not at all true. There were no common parts between the premier platform and the lh platform. Castaing used many idea's from the premier like engines mounted longitudinally, but no parts or tooling.

The LH platform was used on the Chrysler Concorde, Chrysler LHS, Chrysler 300M, Dodge Intrepid. The LH was in fact derived from an older AMC/Renault design. But even if we were to entertain the notion that the LH platform shared little with original, the fact is that the LH platform was used for decades in of itself, which then would back up the previous claim I had made previously that platforms and often components are manufactured for decades on end.

tatupu70 says

Reality says

Not the consumer staples, and most certainly not medical expense.

Overall inflation rate is low. Some things are higher than the rate, some are lower. That's why it's called an weighted average.

How many new computers can an oldster buy and eat?
That's why "weighted average" is meaningless and prone to fraud when weighted by a bunch of bureaucrats.

HEY YOU says

Maybe,soon, we will totally exit both wars on which the Republicans happily enjoyed spending $4-$6 trillion.

Hope you Rep/Con/Teas enjoy dumping this tax burden on your children & grandchildren.

I forgot! We don't have to fund anything.

Cypher this. What % of $4 trillion is $10 Billion?

But we had to go into those wars. Can you imagine what the cost of not engaging in those wars would have been??

Those wars provided tons of jobs and economic activity. Had we not gone to war, the world probably would have stopped spinning.

edvard2 says

The LH platform was used on the Chrysler Concorde, Chrysler LHS, Chrysler 300M, Dodge Intrepid. The LH was in fact derived from an older AMC/Renault design. But even if we were to entertain the notion that the LH platform shared little with original, the fact is that the LH platform was used for decades in of itself, which then would back up the previous claim I had made previously that platforms and often components are manufactured for decades on end.

The buyout of AMC by Chrysler did not abort the LH development. So what's your objection over some better management team taking over GM? in whole or in parts.

Reality says

If you are referring to Dodge Intrepid (and the LH platform), then you are arguing for me: the buyout of AMC by Chrysler did not end the LH platform.

Quite the contrary actually, for if you were to read my previous response then you'd see that while yes- the AMC platform was the basis for the LH platform, that platform was itself used for decades, which further reinforces my previous statements.Reality says

Nothing is ever new if you look back far enough. Even the electric car pre-dated the gasoline engine. The devil is in the details.

Way to try to back out of a previous assertion by making bland and generalized comments. You were previously trying to suggest that "Modular engineering" is something totally new and different from platform design. A platform is a platform is a platform. Its the same as today with electronics in that almost every TV, stereo system, computer, and so on use a chassis to mount the surrounding electronic components and outer casing. You could take a radio from the 1920's and it too will also have a chassis, and just like cars, the same chassis design will often be employed across models. So what you were asserting earlier was sort of meaningless to start with.

Reality says

The buyout of AMC by Chrysler did not abort the LH development. So what's your objection over some better management team taking over GM? in whole or in parts.

Because that option was NOT on the table. At the time of GM's bankruptcy, there were no offers from any other company to buy them. So the option was to either liquidate the company or to keep them from going under.

All I know is that I and probably the majority out there are very pleased that the sort of ideas you seem to be alluding to were not employed. Political ideology makes for very poor economics.

I'll have to invest before I read about anything I'm investing in."

Reality says

How many new computers can an oldster buy and eat?

That's why "weighted average" is meaningless and prone to fraud when weighted by a bunch of bureaucrats.

No, that's why a computer is weighted much, much less than food.

edvard2 says

Reality says

If you are referring to Dodge Intrepid (and the LH platform), then you are arguing for me: the buyout of AMC by Chrysler did not end the LH platform.

Quite the contrary actually, for if you were to read my previous response then you'd see that while yes- the AMC platform was the basis for the LH platform, that platform was itself used for decades, which further reinforces my previous statements

Either:

1. LH platform Gen1 was used from 1993-1997, Gen2 from 1998-2004, so barely 1 decade. or

2. Change of corporate ownership did not put an end to LH platform development.

Either way, your fear of end of the world if GM went bankrupt was quite unfounded.

edvard2 says

Nothing is ever new if you look back far enough. Even the electric car pre-dated the gasoline engine. The devil is in the details.

Way to try to back out of a previous assertion by making bland and generalized comments. You were previously trying to suggest that "Modular engineering" is something totally new and different from chassis design. A platform is a platform is a platform.

I did not try to back out of anything. It's absurd to think just because electric cars were made in 1899, somehow a carmaker today switching from gasoline to electric would not involve tools and engineering approach that are entirely different from what they were doing a few years before the switch.

edvard2 says

. For example, Ford made numerous versions of the "Windsor" family of engines that ranged from V6 and V8 models and in many cases the same components were used. As a classic car owner myself I can attest to this, seeing as how many parts that will fit a 302 also happens to fit the 289, 351, and others

Also not true. The windsor engines were 221 to 351 v8's. There was never a v6 windsor. They weren't at all modular. It was just the same block with bigger bores and longer strokes with a higher deck for the 351.

Ford's current "modular" engine series 4.6 v8 to 6.8 v10 doesn't refer to modular engine design, it refers to the manufacturing process.

tatupu70 says

Reality says

How many new computers can an oldster buy and eat?

That's why "weighted average" is meaningless and prone to fraud when weighted by a bunch of bureaucrats.

No, that's why a computer is weighted much, much less than food.

The ratio is very different for different people. The expense on medicine as percentage of income is much much higher for certain demographics than for others.

bob2356 says

Also not true. The windsor engines were 221 to 351 v8's. There was never a v6 windsor. They weren't at all modular. It was just the same block with bigger bores and longer strokes with a higher deck for the 351.

You are correct and that was my mistake in that there was no V6 windsor. But nevertheless, the Windsor engines covered the 221, 260, 289, 302, 255, and 351. Many parts are indeed totally interchangeable with several of these. For example the engine in my car is a 302 and MANY parts on it that I have replaced were also the same specs as those used for the 289, and even further, some parts from these two engines will also 221 and 260 engines.Reality says

1. LH platform Gen1 was used from 1993-1997, Gen2 from 1998-2004, so barely 1 decade. or

Earlier you were claiming that these platforms were gone in the mid 90's. So now you are more or less changing your story. Reality says

2. Change of corporate ownership did not put an end to LH platform development.

Either way, your fear of end of the world if GM went bankrupt was quite unfounded.

As I said before, change of corporate ownership was not on the table at the point of GM's bailout. Its also over simplistic to paint business transactions the same way because the situation with AMC was TOTALLY different than that of GM. Reality says

I did not try to back out of anything. It's absurd to think just because electric cars were made in 1899, somehow a carmaker today switching from gasoline to electric would not involve tools and engineering approach that are entirely different from what they were doing a few years before the switch.

I didn't say you backed out of anything. All you did was simply make some sort of claim that somehow long-established general manufacturing design was this totally new thing and at the same time claiming that something as basic and technically generic like a platform was obsolete. That makes zero sense.

edvard2 says

You were previously trying to suggest that "Modular engineering" is something totally new and different from platform design.

It is. Read up on it. Comparing modular engineering to common platforms is absurd. It's totally different. Here's an article from motor trend about vw. http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2012/1202_explaining_volkswagen_mqb_architecture/

bob2356 says

It is. Read up on it. Comparing modular engineering to common platforms is absurd. It's totally different. Here's an article from motor trend about vw.

I think you might want to actually read what modular engineering is about. In general, its about the engineering and design of components, parts, or whatnot on an independent scale in a way so that these components and parts can be used together to make a whole.

So for example, if company "X" makes a certain part in their factory to serve as a component later to be married to say- an air conditioner- which is itself made of 100's of such parts from other suppliers then that is basically an example of " Modular" engineering- aka- parts that are designed independently to work with others to form a design, system, or device.

A classic example is something like a pipe organ. Say that you have a large pipe organ that's made in some shop. Each and every pipe is made separately and if one were to blow air into each one, they each make a tone. But put together in an organ they also work together. These pipes could be used in other organs too ( assuming each manufacture of said pipe were to have them perfectly tuned in advance)

So no- "Modular" engineering is not new, and in the case of auto manufacturing is a well-established practice.

Strategist says

That perma bear theory is crap. Rents are determined by demand and supply, and nothing else. No landlord in San Francisco cares if the McDonald burger flippers can afford rent or not.

Your example does not violate the "perma-bear" model. SF has one of the highest rental demand markets in the country and plenty of high wage earners in that rental demand pool. Rents go up with ALL incomes in that pool.

If the pooled finances of five burger flippers can't match the pocket change of a mid level banker who just needs a crash pad, the banker gets the apartment. Now take that same pad and put it in say Podunk, Mississippi. There may not be many highly compensated bankers around but there are plenty of burger flippers. Perhaps a single burger flipper can afford three such apartments in Podunk.

The real question is why do burger flippers bother to stay in SF.

Strategist says

So what's the solution?

More section 8 probably.

tatupu70 says

Good luck with that. All your neighbors are in the unemployement line that you are unfamilar with. None of them have any money to pay you, despite your admirable attitude.

Let me give an example if you can understand. Imagine a few people stranded in an island. There is no government, there is no corporation. But there is a plenty of land, great weather, and a reasonable supply of trees with fruits. Perhaps there are some wild goats and buffaloes around as well.

According to you, those people will starve to death since they are not getting their paychecks or unemployment benefits. They won't be able to figure out how to survive with available resources

gsr says

Let me give an example if you can understand. Imagine a few people stranded in an island. There is no government, there is no corporation. But there is a plenty of land, great weather, and a reasonable supply of trees with fruits. Perhaps there are some wild goats and buffaloes around as well.

According to you, those people will starve to death since they are not getting their paychecks or unemployment benefits. They won't be able to figure out how to survive with available resources

Actually, that is not at all what I'm saying. How in the world did you interpret my posts as what you wrote above?

If you can find an island with great weather and enough available (free) land, (free) fruits and wild game, to support the current number of unemployed people, please point me in the right direction. I'd like to head there myself.

Reality says

The ratio is very different for different people. The expense on medicine as percentage of income is much much higher for certain demographics than for others.

Of course. Again, that's why they use an AVERAGE.

gsr says

tatupu70 says

Good luck with that. All your neighbors are in the unemployement line that you are unfamilar with. None of them have any money to pay you, despite your admirable attitude.

Let me give an example if you can understand. Imagine a few people stranded in an island. There is no government, there is no corporation. But there is a plenty of land, great weather, and a reasonable supply of trees with fruits. Perhaps there are some wild goats and buffaloes around as well.

According to you, those people will starve to death since they are not getting their paychecks or unemployment benefits. They won't be able to figure out how to survive with available resources

Oh that's rich. I guess next you'll suggest that people could figure out how to live on their own, without constant government direction. Hahaha, like as if people lived before The State was there to micromanage them

errc says

Oh that's rich. I guess next you'll suggest that people could figure out how to live on their own, without constant government direction. Hahaha, like as if people lived before The State was there to micromanage them

What's rich is that people believe the above narrative supplied to them... As if the majority of unemployed people don't actually want to earn a good living. I'm sure it makes it easier to think of them as all lazy, no good, freeloaders, doesn't it?

What's keeping unemployed people that want to earn a good living, from doing so?

errc says

What's keeping unemployed people that want to earn a good living, from doing so?

They aren't able to find a new job? What's your point?

tatupu70 says

Reality says

The ratio is very different for different people. The expense on medicine as percentage of income is much much higher for certain demographics than for others.

Of course. Again, that's why they use an AVERAGE.

The term is called "Average" but has little bearing on the spending pattern of any specific demographic group, and certainly not weighted according to spending patterns of those with substantial savings. . . hence the lowering of interest rate to match inflation rate is little more than a lie, and it's actually an action to enrich the leveraged wealthy at the expense of the middle class. The result is:

1. The would be net-consumer demographic (oldster savers) have little money to do discretionary spending; hence less jobs for the youngsters who would be working for those jobs on the margins.

2. Financial leverage is further encouraged, in fact the financial gambling being goaded on by the FED.

tatupu70 says

errc says

Oh that's rich. I guess next you'll suggest that people could figure out how to live on their own, without constant government direction. Hahaha, like as if people lived before The State was there to micromanage them

What's rich is that people believe the above narrative supplied to them... As if the majority of unemployed people don't actually want to earn a good living. I'm sure it makes it easier to think of them as all lazy, no good, freeloaders, doesn't it?

Earning a good living by filing government papers is just a lot easier for many people than earning a good living by being a productive worker getting the nod from fellow individual consumers. You can't be honestly telling me disability is correlated with economic conditions of the society.

edvard2 says

errc says

What's keeping unemployed people that want to earn a good living, from doing so?

They aren't able to find a new job? What's your point?

Or prefer not to take one. There are plenty jobs out there. Baby sitting and other independent contractor jobs are not even subject to minimum wage laws. What's preventing someone from taking a $6/hr baby sitting job? or a lawn mowing job or a snow removal job? He/she doesn't want to.

Reality says

Earning a good living by filing government papers is just a lot easier for many people than earning a good living by being a productive worker getting the nod from fellow individual consumers. You can't be honestly telling me disability is correlated with economic conditions.

So what happens when an employee who works for a company for 30 years, is highly regarded and good at their job is laid off for reasons beyond their control or influence? Do you think people such as these "want" to be laid off? As someone who grew up with a Father who got laid off twice and as myself having been laid off twice, its odd to me to hint that somehow people who utilize unemployment " Didn't try hard enough" or something vague of that nature.

Reality says

The term is called "Average" but has little bearing on the spending pattern of any specific demographic group,

Are we discussing spending or costs? Those are two very different concepts.

Reality says

hence the lowering of interest rate to match inflation rate is little more than a lie

Interest/savings rates aren't set by the Federal Reserve. They are determined by the market, and as such, aren't "set".

Reality says

1. The would be net-consumer demographic (oldster savers) have little money to do discretionary spending; hence less jobs for the youngsters who would be working for those jobs on the margins.

I'm not sure what your point is here? Old people didn't save?

Reality says

Financial leverage is further encouraged, in fact the financial gambling being goaded on by the FED.

Investment is encouraged.

Call it Crazy says

BULLSHIT!!! Totally!!.... If someone truly wanted to work, they'll find a job or create one for themselves....

I tell you what then: For the rest of us who live in reality , we'll happily utilize the insurance and services the government provides us when needed as they were designed to use, which includes unemployment insurance if we ever need it, social security when we retire, the freeways we drive on, and so on. Those who think they're enlightened and need none of these can deal with it themselves. Get laid off? Too bad, so sad. If you can't find a job then that's your fault.

Either way, I'd be genuinely curious how many right-wingers would do a 360 ( I can guarantee ALL of them would) if they found themselves in a predicament where they actually needed assistance. Sure- talk is cheap and idealogical fantasy sounds good until those who believe in it find themselves in the very situation they once derided.

Reality says

Earning a good living by filing government papers is just a lot easier for many people than earning a good living by being a productive worker getting the nod from fellow individual consumers. You can't be honestly telling me disability is correlated with economic conditions of the society.

What I'm telling you is that people would prefer to work for a living rather than collect disability or unemployment. As is obvious because when there are jobs available, both the UE and disability rates go down.

Call it Crazy says

If someone truly wanted to work, they'll find a job or create one for themselves....

You live in a different world than I, my friend.

Call it Crazy says

Spoken like the true liberal you are.... If it's FREE, it's for ME!!!

That's funny. I'm very middle of the road politically. Or at least what middle of the road was 20 years ago.

It's funny that I'm now considered a liberal....

edvard2 says

The problem with your assertion is that your "solution" is tied to gross assumptions and guesses. When it comes down to investments, risk, and financial planning, basing said investment on assumption is an almost assured means to LOSE a lot of money. Investments are made on the basis of more predictable outcomes. Simply put, saving two companies with large intact chains of suppliers, trained workers, and the entire network of inter-related enterprises tied to them and leaving this system intact has way LESS risk then doing what you were suggesting, which was to let em' fail and "Assume" that somehow other auto manufactures would have picked up the slack. Had something like what were suggesting been done the net loss would have almost assuredly been many, many times greater in overall cost then what it wound up being.

I can't say I agree at all with this reasoning. Giving handouts to GM does nothing to change the overall demand for cars. Therefore, if GM sells fewer cars, the other companies will sell MORE cars. And they will be better quality cars, because the other companies do not have failed business models. The "saving jobs" argument comes up constantly, and I think it's just a lame excuse for systemic transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. 10 billion dollars would make 10,000 people instant millionaires. That's a VERY high price to pay. NO executive or shareholder at GM should have made one red cent from that 10 billion dollars. All this did was allow GM to claw market share, that it doesn't deserve, away from the other manufacturers, and allow undeserving execs to pocket a bunch of money.