patrick.net

indeed-pat net readers have their own set of interests-after all this is a primarily a real estate, but it is surprising that there is not even a small discussion going on.

Probably just as well.
There is a lot of conflicting information about what the facts actually are.

Bundy, a descendant of Mormons who settled in Bunkerville more than 140 years ago, claims an inherent right to graze the area...

The trouble started when Bundy stopped paying grazing fees in 1993. He said he didn't have to because his Mormon ancestors worked the land since the 1880s, giving him rights to the land.

Uh-huh.

The grazing fee for 2014 is $1.35 per AUM

Damn. An AUM is an animal-unit-month, so that's $16.20 per year, per cow, for the privilege of destroying land you don't own.

How is this not welfare? Because he's white?

BTW, the rural Nevada ranching families enjoy a degree of political power, baked into the state constitution, which makes Nevada basically a feudal state. A few thousand people from entrenched upstate families have more political power than the entire populations of Vegas and Reno.

This guy is just a spoiled brat.

This reminds me of the rugged individualist ranchers of the Southwest, who proudly proclaim their opposition to welfare and handouts while irrigating their farms with water pumped several hundred miles uphill. By a system built by New York and California taxpayer dollars.

For a long time now Dan8267 has asked the question what would it take for the 2nd amendment crazies to actually get up off their asses and protect the rights of others on a non-gun issue.

A number of Bundy's supporters, who included militia members from California, Idaho and other states, dressed in camouflage and carried rifles and sidearms. During the stand-off, some chanted "open that gate" and "free the people."

"I'm ready to pull the trigger if fired upon," Scott said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/12/us-usa-ranchers-nevada-idUSBREA3B03Q20140412

These guys are willing to fight and be killed to protect the right for cattle ranchers to illegally graze their herds on federal land.

Well Dan, now you have your answer!

If you want the gun nuts to support your cause(s) here is the key.

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Uh-huh.

The grazing fee for 2014 is $1.35 per AUM

Damn. An AUM is an animal-unit-month, so that's $16.20 per year, per cow, for the privilege of destroying land you don't own.

The problem wasn't the fees, it was those damn endangered desert tortoises!

Bundy's beef with federal land management officials dates back to 1993, according to federal officials, when Bundy's allotment for grazing his cattle on public land was modified to include protections for the desert tortoise. Bundy, who told the Associated Press his family has been ranching this part of Nevada since the 1870s, did not accept the modified terms, and continued to let his cattle graze anyway.

After legal maneuverings on both sides, a Nevada district court judge in 2013 permanently enjoined Bundy's cattle (some 900, by the government's count) from grazing on public property. The judge reiterated that decision in 2013 and authorized the U.S. government to impound the cattle.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/nevada-rancher-threatens-range-war-feds/story?id=23225314

New Renter says

These guys are willing to fight and be killed to protect the right for cattle ranchers to illegally graze their herds on federal land.

Yep, but not over the NSA abuses, because Gunnutus Americanus - the Bloated Belt-Buckle Barrel Sucker - is basically an authoritarian species: a believer in strong-father government to protect the rights of the powerful.

But they're not morons, so nobody should say that!

I posted yesterday how John Wayne still has it.

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Damn. An AUM is an animal-unit-month, so that's $16.20 per year, per cow, for the privilege of destroying land you don't own.

Now I get the missing money aspect of the story.
And Liberals are a bunch stark raving greedy bastard lunatics.
So I can understand how this decade long issue, can all of sudden be this administrations most pressing issue, even if Rome is burning to the ground.

BUT!!!!

Can you please explain to me how the COWS are destroying the land. Have you ever actually seen a COW, I mean in a real pastoral setting?

Another bogus bullshit claim is about endangered turttles.

Have you ever seen Cows walking amongst rocks and bolders?
NO! No you haven't, Cows would never step on a rock or anything shaped like one. They weigh a ton, and their leg might slip and they could break a bone and do some serious damage.

If you've ever seen a pasture, there are a few trails where they keep most of the traffic. They don't trample the whole ground flat, nor do they destroy the grass. That's what Sheep and Goats do, that's why there was a big conflict with Sheep herders and Cattle ranchers, because the Sheep herds would destroy the grass.

CaptainShuddup says

Cows would never step on a rock or anything shaped like one.

Yes, and a meteor impact could never have wiped out the dinosaurs because it's highly unlikely it would have hit each one in the head.

CaptainShuddup says

Now I get the missing money aspect of the story.

And Liberals are a bunch stark raving greedy bastard lunatics.

So I can understand how this decade long issue, can all of sudden be this administrations most pressing issue, even if Rome is burning to the ground.

BUT!!!!

Can you please explain to me how the COWS are destroying the land. Have you ever actually seen a COW, I mean in a real pastoral setting?

The majority of cleared Brazilian rainforest is left as grass. Much of that grass is for cattle. Does that not count as destruction in your books?

CaptainShuddup says

Another bogus bullshit claim is about endangered turttles.

Have you ever seen Cows walking amongst rocks and bolders?

NO! No you haven't, Cows would never step on a rock or anything shaped like one. They weigh a ton, and their leg might slip and they could break a bone and do some serious damage.

If you've ever seen a pasture, there are a few trails where they keep most of the traffic. They don't trample the whole ground flat, nor do they destroy the grass. That's what Sheep and Goats do, that's why there was a big conflict with Sheep herders and Cattle ranchers, because the Sheep herds would destroy the grass.

I don't like the FEds using bogus claims of turtles or endagenderd rats as excuses. Like they are using the smelt fish in Sacramento river to avoid diverting water for once in a century drought.

But that is one issue-here the rancher is not paying and still grazing -which is not right. I do agree with you on cows not damaging the land. The BLM is very strict on how many cows are allowed to graze the land and it is scientific. Plus the land in NV is very different than east coast/midwest. I don't remember exactly, but I think it was 50 acres to support one cow or some such. it is very poor/sparse land and on top of that you have the mustangs that use the water and land

But the guy is not paying up-which he should. Now maybe he is not paying up after the turtle incident-in which case, I am more neutral. I think the federal endangered species law is far too over reaching.

The issue is states rights and abuse by the Feds.

The Feds wanted him off that land, so they charged him *retroactive rent* of $1 million for land his family has ranched for a century.

It's similar to the Drake's Bay oyster farm fiasco. Liars claimed that harbor seals and eel grass (I am not kidding) were disburbed by oyster farming, however the State of California supports this activity there.

In Nevada case, the state and the local sheriff (the law of the land) took the Nevada man's side since he 1. paid his taxes 2. obeyed the laws in Nevada.

I heard that the Feds wanted to lease a giant spot for a Chinese wind farm and this guy is standing in the way.

The Feds own 88% of Nevada, why are they bothering this man?

Well here's an interesting twist to the story:

The toothless tortoise is ill equipped to harvest and masticate range forage. The tortoise can harvest only tender vegetation, and it can't masticate even that. The tortoise can't process enough bulky, low analysis forage fast enough to meet its nutritional requirements (Nagy & Medica 1986). They solved this problem long ago—they allow other animals to do it for them. Desert tortoises feed primarily on dung. The more animals using the range, the more dung, which makes more food available for tortoises. In the millennia preceding the advent of domestic live- stock on the range, tortoises subsisted on pellets excreted by rabbits, deer, and bighorn and scats of predators.

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/rangelands/article/viewFile/10776/10049

If this is true then the cattle are GOOD for the cow pie eating tortoises.

Why does the BLM hate tortoises?

Bigsby says

The majority of cleared Brazilian rainforest is left as grass. Much of that grass is for cattle. Does that not count as destruction in your books?

Um... We're talking about plains grass lands here, not the Texas rain forest.

OK let's put it this way.

How many of you have cats and dogs?

Uh huh? OK now how many of you have outside cats or dogs?

Well it says here according to my Liberal pull shit out of my ass calculations, it seems you owe America a lot of money. Your dogs and cats have been shitting and pissing on public land for decades, and how can we put a price on all of the lizards and birds, your cats have destroyed, and the holes your dogs have dug?

If this was fight about the rancher being but hurt, because he has cows on public lands, and someone felt entitled to butcher and eat one of them.
I would actually be on the entitled guy's side.
If the rancher wants to ensure his cattle are safe and secure, then he should keep them on his own land. But for the Obama to send in his drone goon squad and round up all the cows, using turtles as a front, then I call bullshit.

The Cattle are saving the earth from countless wild grass fires, so they are actually doing their part to keep greenhouse gasses down.

CaptainShuddup says

Bigsby says

The majority of cleared Brazilian rainforest is left as grass. Much of that grass is for cattle. Does that not count as destruction in your books?

Um... We're talking about plains grass lands here, not the Texas rain forest.

The point is that cattle destroy the natural eco system. It doesn't make any difference whether that is Nevada or Brazil. Cattle cause destruction.

CaptainShuddup says

The Cattle are saving the earth from countless wild grass fires, so they are actually doing their part to keep greenhouse gasses down.

I'm not sure if that was a joke, but anyway...

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772&CR1=warning#.U0wUleaSycQ

CaptainShuddup says

OK let's put it this way.

How many of you have cats and dogs?

Uh huh? OK now how many of you have outside cats or dogs?

Well it says here according to my Liberal pull shit out of my ass calculations, it seems you owe America a lot of money. Your dogs and cats have been shitting and pissing on public land for decades, and how can we put a price on all of the lizards and birds, your cats have destroyed, and the holes your dogs have dug?

I've said it before and I'll say it again;

Do NOT #@$%^ with cat people!

Everybody knows that!

dodgerfanjohn says

Not one comment on pnet about the standoff in the Nevada desert....

You mean where people wait in line for the 'opportunity' to 'purchase' a 'track home' in a development in the desert?

If you want federal handouts, you have to stay within the law: Move to New York and open a bank, the same as everybody else.

Bigsby says

The point is that cattle destroy the natural eco system. It doesn't make any
difference whether that is Nevada or Brazil. Cattle cause destruction

Umm no. The ecosytem does not exist by itself as the Disney lovers believe.. Grazing animals have been part of the ecosystem for a gazillion years. it is a balance and we play the role of the predators to keep it in balance and check overgrazing. if we don't , the animals will die off from lack of food anyways.

My only thing is that he is not paying any fees while running a business. That is like saying I have been renting a building for 50 yrs and so now I think the building is mine and I won't pay rent. Business is business-there are plenty of ranchers in TX, MT etc who own their own land and run their own herds. if you are running herds on leased land-govt or private-you are subject to the whims of the owner at the end of the contract.

I would think that is a conservative position-usually it is the socialists who screech that owners are evil and renters should get the property after x number of years. many countries actually have this-usually communist/far left leaning countries.

lostand confused says

Umm no. The ecosytem does not exist by itself as the Disney lovers believe.. Grazing animals have been part of the ecosystem for a gazillion years. it is a balance and we play the role of the predators to keep it in balance and check overgrazing. if we don't , the animals will die off from lack of food anyways.

Cattle have been bred and placed on land often cleared to accommodate them. That hardly makes them a natural part of ecosystems. Ecosystems have been changed (read destroyed) to allow the rearing of these domesticated animals. And it's laughable to say that we play the role of keeping things in balance. What about all the redirecting of potential food/land resources to feed these cattle?

Bigsby says

CaptainShuddup says

The Cattle are saving the earth from countless wild grass fires, so they are actually doing their part to keep greenhouse gasses down.

I'm not sure if that was a joke, but anyway...

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772&CR1=warning#.U0wUleaSycQ

You're trying to tell me those cows fart greater than if all of that grass land was to catch a five year wild grass fire?
You can't see a cow fart from space.

lostand confused says

Umm no. The ecosytem does not exist by itself as the Disney lovers believe.. Grazing animals have been part of the ecosystem for a gazillion years.

THIS!!!!

Bigsby says

Cattle have been bred and placed on land often cleared to accommodate them. That hardly makes them a natural part of ecosystems.

So Cows that have been pasture lands that have been pastures since the bison ran and were eaten by big cat predators, should pay for the sins of the atrocities that corporations (many of which I bet you own stocks in your peronal and 401K portfolios) against the equatorial rainforests around the world.

Out of all the suitible places for a cow to fucking graze the Nevada and Texas plains are proably the most fitting places on Earth for them to do so.

It's this bent logic, one size Fucks all, that makes 90% of the people I talk to. Know that Global warming is a bag of shit the Liberals are injecting into a non issue.

Like they do with every thing else.

Now I know the media and news says evreryone belives in global warming. But that's not what I find when I actually talk to people, who are at ease with them selves that no Liberal enforcer isn't around to rat them out. Will tell you, that they are full of Shit.
But then a Liberal walks into the room, then that same person will chastise me for passing gas, and putting the Earth at risk. While looking over his shoulder for an approving grunt from the said Liberal who entered the room.

CaptainShuddup says

Out of all the suitible places for a cow to fucking graze the Nevada and Texas plains are proably the most fitting places on Earth for them to do so.

Really something.

Post of the year.

This is a troll account, right?

You win: I was fooled for a long time. Great troll job, man. Among the very best.

Don't mess with a Nevada Cow.

a

Nope I get my news straight from the horses Ass, those jack asses in Washington. I don't even have cable, and haven't watched television in over two months.

Fox is preaching to choir they aren't the choir.

What the typical academic geographers call "plateau," the local people in Nevada call "high plains."

CaptainShuddup says

Don't mess with a Nevada Cow.

a

Why? Its not like Bossie can pull the trigger!

Cat people OTOH...

Seriously, DON'T mess with Cat People!

Bigsby says

The point is that cattle destroy the natural eco system. It doesn't make any difference whether that is Nevada or Brazil. Cattle cause destruction.

And repeated nuclear testing doesn't? Did you protest when a sizable part of Nevada has been made radioactive by the federal government?

gsr says

And repeated nuclear testing doesn't? Did you protest when a sizable part of Nevada has been made radioactive by the federal government?

Well that was in the name of freedom!

Why do you hate freedom?

Here is another take on the NV standoff. Looks like a solar developer might be interested in the land being grazed by Bundy.

http://libertyunyielding.com/2014/04/12/feds-want-relocate-desert-tortoise-chinese-solar-farm-sponsored-harry-reid/

So he got Chinese solar panels that were too cheap to sell to the American public. They were dumping he said. He was the one dumping. Taking a huge dump right on the Ameircan's head.

How's that $20,000 Solar set up going for ya? The money you could have saved, you had to spend on incorporating your solar grid back into the Power grid, while they just raise the price of power on everyone, then give you a few cent discount and pat you the back and call you Good Boy, you Good Boy.

Hey whoa, I'm still trying to save the Whales man.

sbh says

I used to do a lot of treeplanting in the Idaho Panhandle National Forest. One day I get a letter from the State of Idaho telling me I owed them taxes on the "improvements" I had made to Federal land within the state. Yeah, some pencil-necked geek, newly installed in his cubicle, had decided, with the blessing of the mandarins in Boise, to throw shit in every direction and see if any of it stuck. Now, remember, THERE ARE NO DEMOCRATS IN IDAHO, AND EVEN FEWER LIBERALS. So this ludicrous act was an act of "government-think" pure and simple.

sbh says

And I'm still a liberal.

Go figure...

sbh says

It's called real world experience.

I think another word would be more apt.