patrick.net

With the world population increasing exponentially, terrorist organizations on the rise, international travel increasing, more borders opening up, it's only logical that at some future point there will be a World ID card.

Why not catch the wave of the future, develop and implement the technology before china/japan does so we can create jobs now and heal the middle class in this country.

SoftShell says

A national ID card would not contain any more information about anyone that the government doesn't already have.

SoftShell says

Why not catch the wave of the future, develop and implement the technology before china/japan does so we can create jobs now and heal the middle class in this country.

Following your "logic" to the end conclusion then It would be more logical to put it all on a encrypted chip and implant it rather than to implement it. No lost cards, no identity theft. The police could just walk around with RF scanners.

I think you should volunteer to be in the first test batch.

SoftShell makes a lot of assertions and provides little evidence. In contrast, independent commissions have study the alleged problem of in-person voter fraud and found only 13 cases in Pennsylvania. No solution that infringes upon a million person's voting rights in order to stop 13 illegal votes is rational. Hell 13 x 50 or 650 does not justify infringing a million legal votes.

And absentee ballet fraud is much, much more pervasive than in-person. There's more benefit to it. It scales more. And there's less risk. Yet, no conservative proposes preventing this fraud. If they really cared about stopping illegal votes, they would call for absentee ballots to be banned.

And when you get right down to it, most of SoftShell's complaints have nothing to do with voting or the illegality of immigrants and everything to do with immigration itself.

If the problem conservatives have with immigration is the illegality of it, then the solution is simple, quick, and easy. Make all immigration legal. Provide a free, quick path to citizenship. You want to be a U.S. citizen? Fill out a simple form and wowla, you're a tax paying citizen with a social security number.

Of course, this is not what conservatives want. They don't want immigrants to be legal. They want no more immigrants. And that's a perfectly fine position to take, if you are honest about it.

However, there are consequences to this like driving out all the profits that big farm makes using essentially slave labor. People in Florida will have to mow their own lawns like I do.

If conservatives had balls and honesty, they would simply come out against immigration, all immigration legal or not. Come up with a compelling case that America's population is already too high. Hell, I could make that case myself and have many times. But don't bullshit about immigration and voter law because you don't have the courage to defend the actual position you want.

The current system is the worst of all possibilities. We have massive amounts of immigration, yet
- the immigrants are doomed to live in poverty and thus use social resources payed by taxpayers
- children and adults are sent to countries they never knew
- the immigrants are abused by big farm and other corporations
- there is no tracking of people
- they don't pay taxes
- social funds like school funding is not allocated properly as a result
- more crime results from all the above, especially the poverty
- illegals are essentially treated as slaves or indentured servants with no legal rights

As much as conservatives want all the Mexicans to leave, they still need the Mexicans for cheap, slave labor. They just don't want to pay for the cost of keeping the slaves alive. That's why they don't want to solve the problem of immigration. They just want to use the issue to keep the immigrants powerless. They like the idea of a large population of slave labor that cannot vote or get benefits or a living wage. They like illegal immigration precisely because it dis-empowers and impoverishes multitudes of people. But they have to maintain the ruse that they are against it.

Conservatives, grow some balls and just come out against immigration itself.

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

What you are saying below is a red herring, as the voting system is currently setup to not require proof of citizenship...so how in the hell would we know?

corntrollio says

he number of undocumented immigrants who try to vote is almost non-existent.

Then how are you so sure they are voting?

You forgot to answer the question.

SoftShell says

We will transfer birth control funding away from the Sandra Flukes of the world and put it to better use implementing national ID cards with embedded iris imprints coupled with dna samples.

Saved.

In that case, you are not against a powerful federal government being involved in the lives of the citizenry, you are against it being involved in the lives of the citizenry only if it does so in ways you don't agree with.

You aren't against government spending and taxation, as long as it taxes and spends in ways you agree with.

Commie.

Dan8267 says

And when you get right down to it, most of SoftShell's complaints have nothing to do with voting or the illegality of immigrants and everything to do with immigration itself.

The problem I have is that Calif gives away so much to illegal immigrants. This has created a culture of subsidized people who have a culture built around this. This also gives them a big advantage over non subsidized workers.

Gee, I wonder who the 1 dislike was on my post #99 while there is 1 corresponding like on post #100.

There are 18 to 20 million illegal immigrants in a position to defraud the us government and their citizenry.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/9/nearly-20m-illegal-immigrants-us-ex-border-patrol/

Illegal immigrants, by definition, have intentionally broken US law just by being here. So it is a fact that this class of people have no problems ignoring/breaking US law.

While there are no concrete statistics to track illegal voting, those statistics are available for illegally obtaining food stamps, welfare checks, etc etc etc..

It is entirely logical to assume that 20 million lawbreakers, a good portion of them multiple lawbreakers, will add to that resume by voting illegally if the act is made profitable to them by any group that would benefit from their vote.

But, putting aside the illegal immigrant component, why the fuck would any US citizen want to expose the US democratic process of voting to over 70 million international visitors expected to arrive during 2014?

Quite simply, not having voter verification opens up the voting process to illegal immigrants, foreign visitors, convicts, and any other group present in the US who does not have the right to vote. Thats over 100 million potential illegal votes waiting in the wings to be bought and paid for by those that would benefit from their illegal votes...

bob2356 says

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

What you are saying below is a red herring, as the voting system is currently setup to not require proof of citizenship...so how in the hell would we know?

corntrollio says

he number of undocumented immigrants who try to vote is almost non-existent.

Then how are you so sure they are voting?

You forgot to answer the question.

That doesn't follow any sane person's logic..

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

Why not catch the wave of the future, develop and implement the technology before china/japan does so we can create jobs now and heal the middle class in this country.

Following your "logic" to the end conclusion then It would be more logical to put it all on a encrypted chip and implant it rather than to implement it.

I am defending the actual position I want.
We need legal immigrants to perform the functions you define in your post.
Just follow the law in implementing it...It's all about following the laws we all vote to put in place.
Quite simple, really.

Dan8267 says

If conservatives had balls and honesty, they would simply come out against immigration, all immigration legal or not. Come up with a compelling case that America's population is already too high. Hell, I could make that case myself and have many times. But don't bullshit about immigration and voter law because you don't have the courage to defend the actual position you want.

SoftShell says

That doesn't follow any sane person's logic..

I rest my case.

SoftShell says

But, putting aside the illegal immigrant component, why the fuck would any US citizen want to expose the US democratic process of voting to over 70 million international visitors expected to arrive during 2014?

It is very evident that you don't have the vaguest clue how voter registration works.

SoftShell says

It is entirely logical to assume that 20 million lawbreakers, a good portion of them multiple lawbreakers, will add to that resume by voting illegally if the act is made profitable to them by any group that would benefit from their vote

That doesn't follow any sane person's logic.

Two things are necessary:

1- provide proof of residency, available for free from any one of the 600,000,000 garbage cans on US curbs...

2- provide incentive (cash) to those in a position to demonize the system.

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

But, putting aside the illegal immigrant component, why the fuck would any US citizen want to expose the US democratic process of voting to over 70 million international visitors expected to arrive during 2014?

It is very evident that you don't have the vaguest clue how voter registration works.

You can't 'rest' what you don't have.

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

That doesn't follow any sane person's logic..

I rest my case.

You are entitled to your opinion.

bob2356 says

SoftShell says

It is entirely logical to assume that 20 million lawbreakers, a good portion of them multiple lawbreakers, will add to that resume by voting illegally if the act is made profitable to them by any group that would benefit from their vote

That doesn't follow any sane person's logic.

FortWayne says

Why not require passport to vote?

The government can revoke and confiscate passports. Therefore, they cannot be used as voter IDs. An ID needed for voting cannot be confiscated for any reason other than the person does not have the right to vote. Otherwise, it violates people's right to vote, which is paramount.

SoftShell says

4- II's lie to obtain medical care

5- II's lie when obtaining food stamps

6- II's lie when obtaining unemployment benefits

Where are you getting this stuff? No undocumented immigrant is eligible food stamps or unemployment benefits (unless they pay unemployment insurance, which many do or their employers do), and there's no evidence that undocumented immigrants are fraudulently obtaining them on a wide scale. As for medical care -- I'm not sure why they would need to lie to get medical care, please explain. Not even bothering addressing #7, it's just plain stupid -- again, no undocumented immigrants gives a shit about voting; there are plenty of other problems in their life. Take off the tin foil hat (and btw, posting a Washington Times article doesn't help, especially one whose chief support is disgruntled blue collar people who have no expertise in demography).

Dan8267 says

Conservatives, grow some balls and just come out against immigration itself.

They won't because business interests love lower class undocumented immigrants for cheap labor.

indigenous says

The problem I have is that Calif gives away so much to illegal immigrants.

Such as?

corntrollio says

indigenous says

The problem I have is that Calif gives away so much to illegal immigrants.

Such as?

Section 8 housing, WIC, emergency healthcare, children's education, child support for single mothers.

indigenous says

Section 8 housing, WIC, emergency healthcare, children's education, child support for single mothers.

Emergency healthcare is not unique to California. Children's education is not unique to California.

Last I checked, none of the rest are going to illegal immigrants.

corntrollio says

Emergency healthcare is not unique to California. Children's education is not unique to California.

Last I checked, none of the rest are going to illegal immigrants.

My understanding is that 1/3 of the welfare in the US goes to Calif with 12% of the population. Unless that is not true, Calif is doing a shit load of welfare that is unique to Calif.

Food Stamps:
* over 47 million participants as of 2013...
* 4% are not citizens
* 1,888,000 non-citizens are receiving food stamps

Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for SNAP. Additionally, there is already a strict waiting period for documented immigrants. Documented adult immigrants (those with a greencard) are subject to a five-year waiting period before they are eligible for SNAP.
Noncitizens make up a very small portion of SNAP participants – only 4% of participants are noncitizens (documented immigrants
http://feedingamerica.org/how-we-fight-hunger/programs-and-services/public-assistance-programs/supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program/snap-myths-realities.aspx
http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/29snapcurrpp.htm

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

4- II's lie to obtain medical care


5- II's lie when obtaining food stamps


6- II's lie when obtaining unemployment benefits

Where are you getting this stuff?

Medical Care:

Under federal law, hospitals are required to provide emergency room care to everyone, regardless of ability to pay or immigration status.
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2012/october/11/health-care-immigrants.aspx

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

4- II's lie to obtain medical care


5- II's lie when obtaining food stamps


6- II's lie when obtaining unemployment benefits

Where are you getting this stuff?

Unemployment benefits being shortchanged due to illegal immigrants claiming false childcare benefits:

How easy it is.....

The ease with which the fraud is committed was revealed by an investigative reporter in Indiana in 2012:
An undocumented worker in southern Indiana told 13 Investigates just how easy it truly is.
He said four other illegal immigrants file tax returns using his address, even though none of them actually lives there. And he said this year those four workers filed tax returns claiming 20 children live inside his small trailer home. As a result, the IRS sent the illegal immigrants tax refunds totaling more than $29,000.
But none of the 20 children listed as dependents on the tax returns live in Indiana — or even in the United States.
"No, they don't live here," admitted the undocumented worker, who lives with his young daughter. "The other kids are in their country of origin, which is Mexico."
http://www.cis.org/cadman/gaming-system-illegal-aliens-1-unemployed-americans-0

And how this affects your unemployment benefits....

“I am not surprised that Senator Reid is backtracking,” said David North. The immigration-law expert praised GOP Sen. Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H., for her amendment to halt IRS child tax-credit refunds going to illegal immigrants.

“It provides money to the unemployed while taking undeserved tax refunds away from illegal aliens,” North said.

http://directorblue.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/yep-harry-reid-blocks-unemployment.html

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

4- II's lie to obtain medical care


5- II's lie when obtaining food stamps


6- II's lie when obtaining unemployment benefits

Where are you getting this stuff?

SoftShell says

Unemployment benefits being shortchanged due to illegal immigrants claiming false childcare benefits:

Good Work SoftShell, What about single mothers getting child support from the state?

Awesome SoftShell -- you just confirmed everything I said for #4 and #5 -- that you don't need to lie to obtain medical care and that undocumented immigrants are ineligible for food stamps. Note that it says green card holders must wait 5 years to be eligible for SNAP, which means they would typically be eligible for citizenship at that point.

If I were to be charitable, I'd say at best that you were making a tenuous connection for #6 re: unemployment benefits, but your argument for that is illogical and stupid -- there's no connection there in reality. That said, if an undocumented immigrant or his/her employer pays unemployment insurance on his/her behalf, I see no reason they shouldn't be eligible to get unemployment benefits -- paying into the system means you should get the benefits of that system. That means there's no need to lie to get the benefits when you've paid for them.

Moreover, most of the people committing tax fraud in the manner you're stating are probably either US citizens or documented immigrants, or are foreign fraudsters who don't live here. Trying to generalize from one case in a poorly written anti-immigration website is not really a way to prove this. In fact, if you had actually gone to the source article, that article points out that the IRS says that undocumented immigrants are permitted to get child tax credits under existing law:

The agency instead sent 13 Investigates a short statement (see below) saying it is following the law, and current tax law does not prevent undocumented workers from getting additional child tax credits. The IRS claims it can't change that without a new law.

http://www.wthr.com/story/17861738/will-lawmakers-act-to-close-tax-loophole-for-illegal-immigrants

Note that that means that these undocumented immigrants are actually paying their taxes and filing tax returns, which is something that dumbasses usually assert is non-existent. Just because a few bad actors are acting badly doesn't mean everyone is doing so.

Great!
I'm glad you are in 100% with the top 1% collecting full social security benefits when they hit 65.

corntrollio says

That said, if an undocumented immigrant or his/her employer pays unemployment insurance, I see no reason they shouldn't be eligible to get unemployment benefits -- paying into the system means you should get the benefits of that system.

Force paternity tests at gunpoint to verify the father, then make him pick trash off the interstates for 10-20 hrs/week so the mother can collect from the state.
They caused the hell.....make em pay.

indigenous says

SoftShell says

Unemployment benefits being shortchanged due to illegal immigrants claiming false childcare benefits:

Good Work SoftShell, What about single mothers getting child support from the state?

Wow, none of this shit has to do with voting ID laws. In fact, the alleged fraud has nothing to do with having an illegal status. Anyone can commit welfare fraud. And welfare fraud is utterly insignificant compare the massive wastes of corporate welfare and the warfare industry.

Yes, conservatives are so god-damn pissed off that a few lazy black people are abusing the system, but these are the indisputable facts.

1. There are no reliable statistics on total welfare fraud. No government agency or news agency has done the work to find out these statistics. The only reliable stats are for subsets of welfare and those stats indicate about 1% fraud.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/08/19/fox-misleadingly-hypes-13-percent-fraud-in-food/195462

2. The entire federal welfare budget for 2013 was $395.9 billion. That's all welfare including food stamps, assisted housing, and unemployment benefits.

Let's be highly skeptical and use 2% fraud even though no evidence supports such a high rate. That's $8 billion in welfare fraud.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/numbers

3. In contrast, the government spent $92 billion in fiscal year 2006 alone for corporate welfare. Most likely over $100 billion by 2013. That's over ten times as much money as the high estimate for welfare fraud. Yet, the free market conservatives don't bitch about this amount.

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/corporate-welfare-state-how-federal-government-subsidizes-us-businesses

4. In 1989, the Savings and Loan bailout cost over $200 billion. That's over $370 billion in today's money. To put that in perspective, the S&L bailout costs the same as over 46 years of welfare fraud using again the high estimate. Over 100 years of welfare fraud using middle of the road estimates. Yet, no complaints from conservatives about that bailout. Hell, they advocated it.

http://economics.about.com/od/governmenttheeconomy/a/savings_loan.htm

5. The Federal Government spent $820.2 on warfare in 2013. That's over 100 times as much as the welfare fraud using the high estimate. If conservatives were serious about small government or reducing spending, they would slash this budget by 90%, putting it in line with every other industrialized nation, almost all of which are our allies.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2014USbn_15bs2n_40#usgs302

6. The bank bailout of $16 trillion -- that's right, trillion, it starts with a T that stands for trouble -- in 2007 wasn't even the total cost of unregulated Wall Street's greed. But that alone is more than 2,000 years of welfare fraud using the high estimate. We're talking Biblical times here. And yet, conservatives still used our money to bail out the banks that should have rightfully failed under the free market.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the-feds-16-trillion-bailouts-under-reported/

Let's just put this in a pie graph.

Anyone who actually cares about fiscal waste, would be more upset with corporate welfare, warfare spending, and the bank bailouts than about welfare fraud. The later is so utterly insignificant compare to each of the former three, that no one actually concerned about wasted tax payer dollars would even be slightly from the real waste.

So what is it about welfare that pisses off conservatives so damn much. It's not the money, clearly. I just can't put my finger on what crawls up the conservative butthole when it comes to the subject of welfare.

Damn, what could it be?

Charity emanates from church bingo's and other religious activities....
Not from the left, unless you are a liberal that opposes Dan's creational views.
I guess it's your right to fantasize about it though...

corntrollio says

If I were to be charitable,

SoftShell says

I'm glad you are in 100% with the top 1% collecting full social security benefits when they hit 65.

Well, the normal retirement age under Social Security for people born in 1937 and earlier is 65. From 1938-1959, there's a phase-in to raise the retirement age. If you were born in 1960 or later, the age is 67.

In addition, the top 1% only pay Social Security taxes based on the Social Security limit for each year, which for 2014 is $117K. Their benefits are already capped based on that tax payment. In addition, Social Security has a progressive benefit system (90/32/15), which means that relative to the amount paid into the system, the top 1% get less back than someone in the bottom 1%.

Maybe you should learn more about how Social Security works if you're going to comment on it. Are you actually proposing a change, or are you just throwing shit to see what sticks?

Dan8267 says

Wow, none of this shit has to do with voting ID laws.

Agree, it's just random untrue stuff stated by people who can't think critically. We can always find a few bad actors, but I'd guess more citizens commit welfare fraud than undocumented immigrants. Many undocumented immigrants are trying to stay under the radar -- that's why it's especially moronic to suggest that they are trying to commit voter fraud, which is one of the worst crimes you can commit (false claim to citizenship) as an undocumented immigrant if you have a pathway to citizenship.

It doesn't surprise me that the trolls here are ignorant about immigration laws either...

Dan8267 says

Anyone who actually cares about fiscal waste, would be more upset with corporate welfare, warfare spending, and the bank bailouts than about welfare fraud. The later is so utterly insignificant compare to each of the former three, that no one actually concerned about wasted tax payer dollars would even be slightly from the real waste.

Agreed. But there were politicians who opposed this, in both parties as well as independents. And if you break it out by party votes it does look worse for the Democrats.

Wow.
I've never met a professional extrapolator before....

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

I'm glad you are in 100% with the top 1% collecting full social security benefits when they hit 65.

corntrollio says

Maybe you should learn more about how Social Security works if you're going to comment on it.

You wage the wars that have the greatest chance of success.
Going up against the corporations that own us, or the war machine that protects us, or the banks that pay us is a fools errand.
There's nothing wrong with taking baby steps.....against all of them.
Eventually you will make inroads.

Dan8267 says

Anyone who actually cares about fiscal waste, would be more upset with corporate welfare, warfare spending, and the bank bailouts than about welfare fraud.

I think you have your head in the sand on this one.
You really think an undocumented immigrant gives a rat's ass about any of the proposed "pathways to citizenship" that both parties have proposed?
They are already here and don't give a shit about what's being proposed.

corntrollio says

that's why it's especially moronic to suggest that they are trying to commit voter fraud, which is one of the worst crimes you can commit (false claim to citizenship) as an undocumented immigrant if you have a pathway to citizenship.

SoftShell says

You really think an undocumented immigrant gives a rat's ass about any of the proposed "pathways to citizenship" that both parties have proposed?

They are already here and don't give a shit about what's being proposed.

Yes, and if you think that, you've probably never met or talked to an undocumented immigrant.

SoftShell says

I think you have your head in the sand on this one.

I'm certain that you have your head up your ass on this one. It's pretty clear that most of your claims and poorly written arguments come from there, considering they have little factual basis.

You've yet to explain why an undocumented immigrant would give a flying fuck about voting. Your argument is that we should all be afraid of this non-existent phenomenon and that's why we need voter ID laws, even though you have no proof that it happens in any appreciable numbers and you've presented no evidence that large numbers of undocumented immigrants even give a shit about voting. Failure to think critically is a big problem here.

Thats because I'm not one to hang with people that commit illegal acts.
Apparently you are.

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

You really think an undocumented immigrant gives a rat's ass about any of the proposed "pathways to citizenship" that both parties have proposed?


They are already here and don't give a shit about what's being proposed.

Yes, and if you think that, you've probably never met or talked to an undocumented immigrant.

Because it's so blatantly obvious.

Illegal immigrants have everything to gain by making sure the party that favors their presence and will offer them a 'no strings attached' chance at citizenship, democrats, are in power.

Looks like that flying fuck just landed....

corntrollio says

You've yet to explain why an undocumented immigrant would give a flying fuck about voting.

SoftShell says

Force paternity tests at gunpoint to verify the father, then make him pick trash off the interstates for 10-20 hrs/week so the mother can collect from the state.

They caused the hell.....make em pay.

But are they getting state child support (welfare) now?

Thus proving that the right actually gets ideas of substance passed that provides compassionate care to everyone.

PCGyver says

SoftShell says

Under federal law, hospitals are required to provide emergency room care to everyone, regardless of ability to pay or immigration status.

And who do we have to thank for EMTALA? 1986 wasn't that Ronald Reagan?