patrick.net

What do you mean by "weight of value of AAPL in the overall corporate market place"? Do you just invent stuff on the fly? Market capitalization is what it is.

Is the weight of AAPL in the S&P 500 equal to the weight of AAPL's market cap in the overall market cap of the country? Even just talking about the stock market - the S&P 500 is not the entire stock market, after all.

You are changing topic, but I will play along with you. The Willshire 5000 dropped even more. Are you so out of touch as not realize small caps have higher Beta (volatility) than large caps?

The current market cap of the S&P 500 is about 16.8 trillion. Current outstanding US treasuries held by the public is 12.4 Trillion. The S&P fell 50%+. The market value of treasuries didn't fall anywhere near 50%. Someone owns those debt instruments, and they add to that entities net worth.

Then advocate for government default during next recession. Notice, government debt is an entirely government enforced identity theft scheme on the rest of the population.

All of this is to say that comparing the percentage drop in value of a partial segment of the country to income is useless. Especially in the middle of an enormous deleveraging event. Incomes are not leveraged, market caps are

The rich are more leveraged than the working stiff. Deleveraging event is proportionally more injurious to the rich than to the working stiff. That's why government intervention to counter deleveraging has exacerbated the wealth disparity.

45848 Reality 2014 Apr 30, 1:52pm

tatupu70 says

New Renter says

But if you have a dollar you can buy that something but if its $100 you can't.

OK--but I think you get the point. Prices falling 10% really doesn't make a hill of beans difference if you lose your job.

Prices fell far more than 10% in a recession. Think 50% or more for commodities, like in 2008. Your steady-state mindset is killing you. Losing a job means transitioning to a new job in the absence of government meddling incentivizing unemployment and preventing employment.

45849

marcus 2014 Apr 30, 1:57pm

FortWayne says

Speaking of gas prices, what the hell is with the 4.67 / gallon lately? And Obama, got no balls to stand up to oil companies to get this addressed.

Hahahahaha,...ohhhh. You crack me up. Like the President can control the price of oil.

Ohh man. If only you had the slightest clue.

45850 Reality 2014 Apr 30, 1:59pm

sbh says

What we are seeing now is the result of half a decade of FED QE. In case you don't remember, and it certainly doesn't feel like it, the crash took place more than half a decade ago. We are allegedly in recovery for half a decade now. LOL. How is that FED pumped recovery that you advocated so much half a decade ago feeling to you now?

He's desperate not to answer the question because it would violate the bible of demand presumption. Even with skyrocketing labor supply and crashing demand for it the working stiff is always "going to get a better deal" eventually if only because of crashing asset values. He may be broke and eating dirt but his standard of living is rising. This is why depression is such a beneficial thing: it gives everybody a much better deal on the things they aren't going to get.

What skyrocket labor supply are you talking about? Has the population been skyrocketing? The sensible worker is always assumed to be on the lookout for a better paying job. That's why hiring managers always prefer poaching workers who have current jobs over people with long unemployment, the latter of which is what government unemployment extensions produce.

"Broke and eat dirt" is what the whole country would be doing if wannabe fascist fools like yourself are allowed to "structure" other peoples lives, like your ilk did with dumping milk into the ocean and burning livestocks to maintain price levels when your saint FDR was in office.

45851 Reality 2014 Apr 30, 2:14pm

sbh says

Brilliant. Before they suffer the virtues of a job killing depression they are yet to be fired so they should rejoice! This is the price destruction sweet spot and they better get some. Once they are laid off, well, it's still their fault because they aren't contributing to the destruction of wage value by taking a 25 cent an hour job working in pools of toxic waste.

The solution, clearly, is the virtuous deflationary destruction of the value of everything: labor and goods alike, such that nothing costs anything and nobody gets paid anything. This means that everyone is employed whether they earn or produce anything or not and hard money reigns. What could be more beautiful?

Are you so clueless as not to understand price discovery in economics? What the heck do you mean by "nothing costs anything and nobody gets paid anything"? Do you live in a vacuum? How would anything be produced if nobody is paid anything to produce them?

The entire Keynesian argument rests on the observation that Wages are more sticky than goods prices and capital asset prices during a depression. The purpose of Keynesian inflation is to reduce real wages via inflation so as to reduce the real wage level without the psychological shock of nominal wage reduction. In practice, as we have observed for decades, the real wages of the worker has been stolen by the banksters and other capital holders via centrally planned inflation.

45852 Reality 2014 Apr 30, 2:28pm

corntrollio says

You are looking at stock indices themselves with dividend reinvested without taking into consideration transaction costs. Index funds are not the same as indices with dividends reinvested. Funds have transaction cost and tax cost when trying to track indices, which have very different stocks over a long period of time.

I've always gotten dividends reinvested for free. If you are not getting this, stop using your current shitty broker and find a better one. As for transaction costs when tracking indices, if you are buying a shitty index fund, you are buying a shitty index fund. This is almost a non-issue if you are buying low-fee funds from someone like Vanguard.

The 14,000 employees of Vanguard have to be paid by someone, and that would be you! On top of that, you are ignoring the counter-party risk: Vanguard itself.

According to Morning Star, the year to date SP500 gain is 2.56%, whereas the Vanguard500 YTD gain is only 1.76%. That is significant under-performance.

45853 control point 2014 Apr 30, 2:47pm

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-21/median-household-debts-rise-as-percentage-owing-shrinks.html
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/06/12/chart-of-the-day-median-net-worth-1962-2010/

The rich are more leveraged than the working stiff. Deleveraging event is proportionally more injurious to the rich than to the working stiff. That's why government intervention to counter deleveraging has exacerbated the wealth disparity.

This is 100% false. Median net worth is somewhere around of $80k. Median household debt is about $70k.

You really think the rich have leveraged almost 50% of their assets?

Someone owns all this debt. How many working stiffs own treasuries, corporate bonds, munis, CDOs, etc.

The rich OWN the debt. They are so unleveraged short term interest rates are zero and have been for years.

45854 Reality 2014 Apr 30, 4:17pm

This is 100% false. Median net worth is somewhere around of $80k. Median household debt is about $70k.

You really think the rich have leveraged almost 50% of their assets?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-21/median-household-debts-rise-as-percentage-owing-shrinks.html

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/06/12/chart-of-the-day-median-net-worth-1962-2010/

$70k median household debt is only 140% of median household income. Most rich households certainly have total debt (not debt service interest payment) more than 140% of their annual income. Income/wage is what's more sticky during a recession than asset prices.

More importantly, you are forgetting the corporate entities that are mostly owned by the rich. They are where the rich take on vast leverage. The mega banks were found to be 50:1 leveraged in 2008.

Someone owns all this debt. How many working stiffs own treasuries, corporate bonds, munis, CDOs, etc.

The rich OWN the debt. They are so unleveraged short term interest rates are zero and have been for years.

Short term interest rates are set by the FED.

A lot of bonds are held by mutual funds and retirement funds. Banks and other financial institutions able to borrow at near-zero interest rate at the FED window also own a lot of bonds, and consequently become very highly leveraged in that pair of trades.

45855 clambo 2014 Apr 30, 6:07pm

I wonder if the alt-A/sub prime people (50% of outstanding mortgages) could have refinanced anyway?

The Fed never could stimulate the growth of the economy. The proof of course is although interest rates have been zero %, GDP growth has only been 2%.

45856

Bubbabeefcake 2014 Apr 30, 8:40pm

http://investmentwatchblog.com/recession-alert-u-s-economy-expands-by-just-0-1-in-first-quarter-mortgage-applications-sink-to-lowest-level-since-december-2000/

The Fed never could stimulate the growth of the economy. The proof of course is although interest rates have been zero %, GDP growth has only been 2%.

The only Feds objecive was to save it's precious banks but now that GDP is actually in negative territory and the economy is now collapsing, Yellen is now attempting to stop this runaway freight train ....BRACE yourselves!

http://investmentwatchblog.com/10-reasons-why-the-economic-collapse-is-here/

45857 bob2356 2014 Apr 30, 9:01pm

$70k median household debt is only 140% of median household income. Most rich households certainly have total debt (not debt service interest payment) more than 140% of their annual income. Income/wage is what's more sticky during a recession than asset prices.

Thtat's just silly. Rich households have exponentially more income producing assets bought with their debt. As long as the revenue continues to service the debt then the price of the asset is irrelevant. How is income more sticky in a recession? People in the median get laid off a lot earlier than the top executives. There's nothing sticky about zero income.

45858

tatupu70 2014 Apr 30, 9:31pm

The vast majority of workers are still working even in the onset of depression. Unemployed are the relatively small minority, and they would only stay unemployed by choice if the government is paying them to stay unemployed (like extended unemployment benefits) or banning them from working via laws like raised minimum wages.

Ridiculous. Why would they stay unemployed when new companies are offering them better opportunities than they had previously?? That's what you say happens, right?

Nominal price go down, but purchasing power go up. You are forgetting the very rationale for Keynes' entire theory: wage is sticky, and more sticky than other goods and assets being re-priced.

Sure--if you are one of the lucky ones that doesn't lose their job, then your purchasing power might temporarily go up. I know that "I got mine, f&^* you" is your motto, but it's not a good way to run an economy.

45859 control point 2014 Apr 30, 11:50pm

More importantly, you are forgetting the corporate entities that are mostly owned by the rich. They are where the rich take on vast leverage. The mega banks were found to be 50:1 leveraged in 2008.

Taking an equity position in a corporation does not mean you take on its leverage. You could buy $1k worth of Citigroup, and if they are leveraged 1000 to 1, it does not mean you have personally taken on $1M in debt.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/quarterly_balance_sheet_developments_report_201403.pdf

Short term interest rates are set by the FED.

A lot of bonds are held by mutual funds and retirement funds. Banks and other financial institutions able to borrow at near-zero interest rate at the FED window also own a lot of bonds, and consequently become very highly leveraged in that pair of trades.

As of the most current FED balance sheet, Lending to depository institutions, liquidity swaps, lending through TALF, & TALF itself all are less than $500 million. Maiden Lain I, II, III have balances of $2B. Lets conservatively say that, at most, lending to depository institutions in any form is currently less than $4B.

The FED also holds $2.3T in Treasuries.

Compare that to the outstanding balance of $1.65T in Treasury Bills, and $12.6T in total Treasuries.

Treasuries held by the Banks themselves leverage by borrowing from the FED is a bucket in the Ocean.

The FED clearly has sufficient market size to affect interest rates, but to say that they set interest rates, even in the short term, while they own around 1/6th of the market for treasuries is a bit of a stretch. 5/6th of the price of treasuries is set by the market, after all.

45860

tatupu70 2014 May 1, 12:24am

Michelle flying around the place having junkets, going to China, Spain, Africa with her mother and her daughters wasn't a job or diplomacy.

OK--perhaps you should detail what is and isn't a first lady's job then.

45861

zzyzzx 2014 May 1, 12:28am

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/photos/redflag.asp

Michelle flying around the place having junkets, going to China, Spain, Africa with her mother and her daughters wasn't a job or diplomacy.

45862 anonymous 2014 May 1, 12:30am

If any publicity is good publicity,,,,this is the most anyones ever cared about anything basketball related, during the nba playoffs to boot

45863

tatupu70 2014 May 1, 12:41am

zzyzzx says

clambo says

Michelle flying around the place having junkets, going to China, Spain, Africa with her mother and her daughters wasn't a job or diplomacy.

I know you don't care about the truth, but as usual, this is another lie from teapartynation.

45864

marcus 2014 May 1, 12:51am

Hey c'mon Tat. They're trying to feed the hate, and you're killing it with those damn pesky facts again.

45865

marcus 2014 May 1, 12:55am

marcus like lots of lefty liberals can't resist getting nasty and name calling. Why?

Because I thought maybe you were capable of a little refection or introspection, and that even for a moment you might get insight into what criticizing Michelle's trips says about you.

Since you'll never see it, I'll say it again. You're a moronic asshole.

And btw, I never suggested her trips were or are about diplomacy.

45866

tatupu70 2014 May 1, 1:17am

Tat... Do you REALLY think her flying to China with the kids and mom was done for diplomacy??? Really??

Do you think the Chinese really give a crap about her (or the US) for that matter??

Read the link I provided--it answers your questions pretty well.

45867

zzyzzx 2014 May 1, 1:29am

Funny you calling Republicans racist when it's the Democrats who support racist legislation like Affirmative Action.

45868

tatupu70 2014 May 1, 1:34am

Snopes..... Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha..

Maybe you should provide links from Mother Jones too....

lol--like I've said before. Truth has a liberal bias.

45869 dublin hillz 2014 May 1, 1:56am

I have not seen any concrete evidence as to how many jobs ZIPR/QE created or saved. All we know is conflicting data that while unemployment rate went down, the labor force participation rate went down which indicates that 1 - population is getting older and 2 - people dropped out of labor force due to "discouragement." So to claim that without ZIRP/QE there would be massive unemployment and depression is at best a guess.

45870

Strategist 2014 May 1, 2:49am

I actually have some respect for her. She did what other females with no real talent, brains or looks do, she leveraged what she had into some fame and dough.

I prefer her to Michelle Obama, Michelle's champagne wishes and caviar dreams are paid for by you and me.

She is a gold digger, a slut, a whore, and a back stabber. It's hard to have any respect for a woman like that.
No billionaire is ever gonna trust her.

45871

tatupu70 2014 May 1, 2:55am

BTW, Snopes has been proven over and over to be a partisan site, just like Mother Jones...

OK--how about you post one example then. Since it has been proven "over and over", it should be easy.

45872

bubblesitter 2014 May 1, 3:00am

Hmmm... Who was wrong here???

That was 2013 and now we are in 2014. LOL.

45873 corntrollio 2014 May 1, 3:06am

tatupu70 says

We both know he won't respond to your question. His last resort when proven wrong is to try to discredit the source rather than refute the facts. Because the facts are NEVER on his side....

Agreed, the facts are rarely on his side on anything that is unrelated to real estate stats.

Anyone who feels the need to use "liberal" or "conservative" (without knowing what they mean, typically, of course, because they use the moronic Nixonian definitions) as part of their argument usually doesn't have a great argument, which is why they use labeling in the first place. It's fucking lazy and a sign of someone who can't think particularly critically and doesn't really have facts or a logical argument on their side.

45874 clambo 2014 May 1, 3:50am

yeah, the only people I know on it signed up because they won't have to pay a dime for it.

If you 1. buy your own insurance (e.g. file sched. C) 2. make over $47K
you will have to start underreporting income or pay through the nose for Obamacare.

Sched. C people pay the fine for not having health insurance already today, you're supposed to prepay your estimated taxes every quarter.

Liberals usually either 1. don't file (losers) 2. pay someone to prepare their taxes (limousine liberals) or 3. lazy so they don't know much about tax codes.

Funny if you do your own taxes doing HRBlock you have to be asleep to not learn the tax code a bit just from doing your return a few times.

My father for example has paid a guy his entire life to do his taxes, I am certain he doesn't know the meaning of "1099".

45875 corntrollio 2014 May 1, 3:59am

http://quotes.morningstar.com/fund/f?region=USA&ss=gf&t=VFINX

According to Morning Star, the year to date SP500 gain is 2.56%, whereas the Vanguard500 YTD gain is only 1.76%. That is significant under-performance.

Not sure where you're getting that:

Morningstar says tracking is off by 0.06% even though its fee is 0.17%. That's the normal investor class.

For Admiral, it's 0.02% with a 0.05% fee:

http://quotes.morningstar.com/fund/f?region=USA&ss=gf&t=VFIAX

Vanguard specifically operates in a way that minimizes fees. I don't know how you'd expect to eliminate transaction costs entirely or what you propose as an alternative. Seems like you're just trying to spread FUD without a real basis.

The suggestion of counterparty risk suggests you don't understand how mutual funds work. I doubt you know anyone who has lost money due to fraud or some sort of accounting shenanigans at a mutual fund. Mutual funds are very regulated ('40 Act). For example, the mutual fund is separate from the company employing the fund's management. In addition, the assets held by the fund are segregated and are generally held by a third party custodian. Mutual funds are also subject to a lot of regulatory oversight and must do a lot of reporting. I believe in some cases, the custodian may also guarantee the assets, or there may be insurance involved. I'm not sure what you're suggesting as an alternative that has lower risk from this standpoint.

45876

Tenpoundbass 2014 May 1, 4:01am

zzyzzx says

She had the most sour scowl during Obama's address, when he said he believed in people getting ahead by their own hard work and effort, and being reward for their effort.

45877 mell 2014 May 1, 4:51am

bob2356 says

As long as the revenue continues to service the debt then the price of the asset is irrelevant.

It doesn't - that's the point of a recession.

bob2356 says

People in the median get laid off a lot earlier than the top executives

Depends, usually the upper most management survives (CEO/CFO), but in tech most of the middle-layer managers are fired before the producing workers below them. and it's much easier to find a new job with good coding skills than "management" skills, hence the ridiculously high golden parachutes.

Taking an equity position in a corporation does not mean you take on its leverage. You could buy $1k worth of Citigroup, and if they are leveraged 1000 to 1, it does not mean you have personally taken on $1M in debt.

No, but you invested in a ponzi scheme and are part of the problem.