patrick.net

marcus says

It seems like there must be more going on here than meets the eye.

of course. The consulate there and the safehouses were all sub-rosa CIA op centers, as our whole involvement with the anti-Qaddafi opposition was highly 'irregular'.

This is just an opportunity for the GOP shitheads to politically capitalize on a misfortune that occurred on the Dem's notional watch (not that the Deep State gives a shit who's nominally running things -- people in the NatSec state can do their own thing without oversight when they want to, like how Oliver North ran guns to Iran and diverted the money to the Contras, and the whole BCCI mess in the 1980s).

It's all bullshit, all the way down now.

zzyzzx says

and we really didn't have to go to war with Germany until after defeating Japan,

In 1942 this wasn't so obvious, ignoring the fact that Hitler did actually declare war on us first in the immediate aftermath of Japan's attack on us.

Plus we needed a new navy -- battleships, carriers, transports -- to defeat Japan, and building up the fleet that could fight its way from Pearl through the Marshalls to the Marianas, and then take and hold Okinawa and Kyushu was going to take several more years, and wasn't going to have a meaningful Army or Air Force contribution until the final endgame invasion of the Japanese home islands anyway.

So the Army and Air Force wanted to get their licks in while waiting for the big showdown with Japan, instead of pulling their putzes for 3+ years while the Navy got all the battle glory.

Operation Roundup

We just chose to so so to help Stalin get half of Europe quicker.

to think our military establishment wanted to take out Hitlerite Germany ASAP just to help Stalin get E Germany is . . . retarded . . . but that's all we can expect from conservatives here on Pat.net now apparently.

I can't remember the last intelligent contribution any of you guys have made here anymore.

Typical hypocritical attitude and behavior from both sides. Wog, you speak with such conviction! But I guarran-fking-tee you that Obama personally shoves a knife straight into the back of a harmless child every single damn day. This side talks about cutting military, the other talks about cutting social. That's all it is...talk. Obama's withdrawl plan from Iraq matched Bush's to the letter. Obama whole-heartedly supported the reinstatement of the Patriot Act. Obama EXPANDED the war in Afghanistan, though we now know that they all knew Bin Laden was in Pakistan. Which "hell" exactly is it you're wishing the Pubs too, again? Because, when it comes to foreign policy. Obama is listening to his masters, alright. Right straight down the playbook.

What pisses me off the most is how the Left continues to give him a pass! Before he was elected, if you turned on any left-leaning media outlet, you'd hear exactly how many civilians had died in Iraq and Afghanistan that week, that month, that quarter, that year, and since 9/11 in total. Soon after Obama took the oath, even leftist asses like Mike Malloy dropped the daily reports on civilian casualties and continued yacking about the Bush Crime Family. Hypocrite. Never cared in the least about the dead civilians. Never cared if grandma got blown away in a firefight in Kabul only because Abu Bin Terrorist was using her as a human shield as he was hold up in the local hospital. It was only EVER about the political agenda. Ron Paul was your best shot, and you voted for Obama to make YOURSELF feel better about YOURSELF. If you can't see the evil in BOTH sides by now, you're a hopeless case.

Good, keep blocking.

We have a perfectly good immigration policy.

If Obama wants to expand the number of Work Visas he can do so with Executive Orders.

But he doesn't want that...he wants as many dependent slave voters to cram in and become plantation Democrats.

deepcgi says

oon after Obama took the oath, even leftist asses like Mike Malloy dropped the daily reports on civilian casualties and continued yacking about the Bush Crime Family

Bush got us into Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's much easier picking up the rifle than putting it down. To actually retreat from battle exposes the commander-in-chief of bullshit charges of 'throwing away victory' and letting the bad guys win through lack of will.

Ron Paul was your best shot, and you voted for Obama to make YOURSELF feel better about YOURSELF.

LOL. I'll pass on Paul's version of the libertopia, thanks.

If you can't see the evil in BOTH sides by now, you're a hopeless case.

the lesser evil is still the lesser evil.

I'd LOVE to see Bernie Sanders win in 2016, but not enough to throw my state to the GOP instead, like Nader voters (in FL and NH) in 2000 by preserving their purity enabled Bush to take over instead of the lesser evil of Gore.

2000:

FL:

Gore 2,912,253 48.84%
Bush 2,912,790 48.85%
Nader 97,488 1.63%

if a rounding error of Nader voters (0.55%) had voted for Gore instead, Gore would have won.

NH:

Gore 266,348 46.80%
Bush 273,559 48.07%
Nader 22,198 3.90%

Similarly, had 1/3 the Nader voters in NH held their nose and voted for Gore, Bush would not have been (s)elected that December, regardless of the outcome of the FL shitshow.

Bellingham Bill says

Job #1 for any career politician is getting reelected

I don't view voting down an ill conceived immigration bill as "doing nothing". It's standing up against the people who have no regard for the middle class of this nation and who want to break the rule of law and the Constitutional Republic.

Democrats haven't delivered for the middle class.

They took a working economy, wrecked it completely, then built it back up to 1/3rd it's former self and called it a "recovery".

Now with gay marriage taking hold even in the deep south, they have reached Peak Bogeyman. They can't find anyone scary enough to frighten people into voting for their ridiculous policies. If Jeb Bush throws his hat into the ring, it's game over...a Republican Century!

Foreign illegal workers drive down wages.
There are 92 million people out of the workforce, plus 9 million unemployed.
There are tens of millions of illegal workers in the USA.
I know many of them since I'm bilingual and have lived in Mexico.
In Mexico just 33% of adults have finished high school. So, many just decide it's easier to drop out and come up here.
My Mexican friends who were teenagers in 82 all went through college, and they are doing fine.
There are no jobs Americans "won't do", there are wages and conditions Americans don't like.
The arguments in favor of illegal alien workers are the same as for slavery: "Who'll pick the cotton?" has become "Who'll pick the lettuce" "Who'll wash the dishes" etc.
Wealth comes from 1. production 2. innovation. The cost of labor has little impact on the growth of either 1&2.
Since the last amnesty did not accomplish anything, or had negative results, it's absurd to repeat it.
The Mexican constitution says foreigners (you and I) cannot 1. own a house (art. #27) 2. can't talk about politics (art. #33) in Mexico.
If ANYone takes a dislike to you in Mexico, they say you are a political activist violating article #33 and you can be hassled.
Importing workers is the screwing Americans over in their most basic need, a guy needs to work to feel fulfilled, to be part of an economy, to have hope, to have savings, to be productive.
Anyone who supports foreign workers hates Americans and American workers. There's no middle ground on the issue.

Bellingham Bill says

the lesser evil is still the lesser evil.

With this attitude, in ten years, even an average Democrat will make neo cons from 2000s look good. You need to criticize the policy if you don't agree with it. The same goes for Obamacare. If you are a Democrat and someone told you six years ago that that's all you would get for reform, you would not have been too happy.

tr6 says

You need to criticize the policy if you don't agree with it. The same goes for Obamacare. If you are a Democrat and someone told you six years ago that that's all you would get for reform, you would not have been too happy.

I'm just this dude, ya know?

I am actually in favor of mandated health insurance and premium supports for people who can't afford insurance.

I understand that people don't like change, and AMA and other vested interests have an immense power to jerk people and the politics around, like what happened to HillaryCare in the 1990s, and what the AMA tried to do with their Operation Coffee Cup bullshit in the 1960s . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

so change to a better system has to come incrementally, like what PPACA is doing.

The political problem comes from the Democrats' precarious position in national politics, given the immense number of conservatards running about -- single issue voters wrt gun rights, anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality, government-led prayer/piety, anti-immigrants, etc etc.

I am far far to the left of most people in the US on a lot of issues. Attacking Obama isn't going to move people to my positions. I tend to argue the positions and ignore the politics, since politics is largely bullshit anyway.

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." -- Eleanor Roosevelt

As for mandated insurance, clearly the weakness in the system is the unnecessary insurance companies and their ability to jerk their customers around.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/business/more-insured-but-the-choices-are-narrowing.html?_r=0

But going after them in 2009-2010 was a bridge too far, as it's going to be a tough row to hoe to eliminate them going forward, because people are stupid, generally speaking.

If you are a Democrat and someone told you six years ago that that's all you would get for reform, you would not have been too happy.

what I want and what I will get will always be differing offerings. I understand the structure of the Democratic coalition as it existed in 2009-2010; Pelosi had the votes to produce a much better reform, but the Senate had the veto position and what the Senate -- specifically, the 10 or so most conservative members of the Democratic coalition would accept -- could pass was what we were going to get in 2010.

This is how the founding fathers structured our system; three (now five) independent, interworking power blocs -- the House, the Senate, the Executive, the Judiciary, and the Fed.

You want change, move.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html

Bellingham Bill says

I am actually in favor of mandated health insurance and premium supports for people who can't afford insurance.

I understand that people don't like change, and AMA and other vested interests have an immense power to jerk people and the politics around, like what happened to HillaryCare in the 1990s, and what the AMA tried to do with their Operation Coffee Cup bullshit in the 1960s . . .

I'll tell you right now that if you have an ACA plan, good luck getting any physician worth his salt to accept you as a new patient. The plans are paying at Medicaid rates. Basically, you'd be better off giving the patient a massage and collecting $100 than seeing him in a doctor's capacity and trying to bill for $40. Many physicians are telling their patients that it's cash up front. Don't like it? You're welcome to go to county, find a nurse practitioner at Walgreens, or head to the free Saturday clinic.

The system as we know it is FUCKED.

Then you have assholes like this:

http://www.startribune.com/business/148983575.html

And people blame the doctors at the AMA (who BTW are a group of spineless idiots who couldn't diagnose a hole in their ass).

Nah, makes too much sense and not enough power and control for the bug gubmnt/prison industrial types.

jazz music says

n just 170 more days we get to vote all these assholes out of our government

hate to break it to you, but our system is structured that some asshole is going to win the office.

VOTE

Asshole A
Asshole B
___________

hint, the ________ candidate never wins, your job as a voter is to pick the least assholish among A and B.

If we had a different voting system, like ranked voting, then you could in fact vote for ________, then A or whatever, but that's not how our electoral system is presently structured.

And thanks to our party system, complicating matters is that picking a least-asshole [e.g. (R), like what arguably the CA senate race in 2000 offered Campbell (R) vs. Feinstein (D)] doesn't necessarily mean the overall political result will be any better, since thanks to the party coalitions what also matters is which party has the majority in each house, so by putting an (R) in office you may cost the (D) their majority, which is a BAD outcome if you think the (D) is marginally better / less-worse than the (R) when in the majority.

The problem isn't the politicians, the problem is the electorate, and our electoral system to a large extent, which is driven by the ignorance and idiocy of the electorate of course.

This is not just a local problem, democracy is dysfunctional* in Germany, Canada, UK, Japan, Australia, maybe even the nordic states for all I know.

We have met the enemy and he is us!

* overly conservative

deepcgi says

You two really don't see that both parties are bloody, no-thought-for-the-long-term, dyed-in-the-wool, Keynesian can kickers.

LOL. Elections come every 2 to 6 years. Of course politicians are can-kickers.

"Keynesian" is just an idiotic content-free conservative slur at this point so it would improve your argument to leave it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_all_Keynesians_now

There was a bubble that burst BEFORE the real estate crash which fueled it entirely. It was the Tech stocks bubble.

the tech bubble was symptomatic of global changes, the induction of China into the American capitalist system that got rolling in the mid-1990s, and also the rise of NAFTA trading, etc, and the productivity miracle of the 1980s and 90s.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=AY5

shows corporate profits were on-track to QUADRUPLING in just 10 years, to 1998. Then the Asian Flu hit and things got dicey.

Also, TBTF got rolling in the 1990s, and it failed the first time when stressed in 2001.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=AY7

is financial sector debt to GDP

Ron Paul was right. He's still right.

bullshit. Libertarianism is just letting the rich run everything, even more than they are now. You can't point to a single reform of the libertarian policy that makes a lick of sense now.

What the libertarians want -- disempowering democracy -- is not the answer.

Fixing democracy, especially our democracy with 300 million under-informed, miseducated, and rather retarded people, is an open question, perhaps impossible without further failure of the present system, like what happened in the 1930s when people finally figured out that the business interests and its political party -- the GOP -- had run the country into the ground.

Now business interests took over a large part of the Dems, too, and the Dems had a large hand in running the country into the ground 1980-now.

But note they were in the minority for much of this -- out of power in the executive 1981-1992 and 2000-2008 (20 years), and had lost the Senate for several years of the 1980s, 1994-2001, 2003-2006, and have never had much control of that body given the conservative power brokers of rural (i.e. "red" states). Dems had the House for two whole years over the past 20.

For who fucked things up in the main, you've got to look at the GOP. They're pretty "Keynesian" too, LOL, though what they like spending money on is utterly wasteful of course, bullshit like trillion dollar wars and Medicare Parts B, C, and D, just added complications that boost private profits on what should be a pure socialist health care system, like what the more functional states have, from Singapore to Sweden.

What scares the hell out of me is how high our IQ's are in comparison to the Keynesian economists on whom we rest our burdens of debt.

? This actually doesn't make much sense to me. Keynes appears to be the End Boss bad guy to you, but I suspect you have been programmed by thought-terminating cliches and are therefore no longer capable of independent thought.

Debt is just numbers on a spreadsheet, and for every debt issuer there is a debt buyer. If you follow the money here, you see the true bad guys, and libertarianism offers no defenses against these powers.

Hell, FDR even had a great name for them, malefactors of great wealth. Libertarianism, along with related strains of Bircherism, Austrianism, and whatever Lew Rockwell is involved in, are basically ginned-up defenses of hereditary wealth powers, not actual reformist schools that will improve anything here.

eg.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Reason_Foundation

jazz music says

I don't think liberals can do that ... and they're just frankly boring!

I can tell you the leftish hosts KGO has (or had in the case of that fat catholic guy) on in the late night hours bore(d) me to no end.

Conservatives can offer prescriptions that sound good -- Less Government! More Freedom! Less taxes! You're Smart! Markets Work Best!

It's all bullshit, but people would rather be bullshitted rather than hear the truth about things.

“Occasionally a man stumbles over the truth. Most dust themselves off and continue walking as though nothing had happened.” ― Winston Churchill

Bill:

Fed has been monetizing 85 billion per month for years. Do you think Obama and the Dems are routing any of that to the poor? To the unemployed? To the environment? BS. That money covers the asses of the wealthiest gamblers on earth. The investors who bet HUGE amounts in mortgage-backed securities and lost it all. The Fed buys up that worthless paper and allows your real estate to stay afloat a little while longer.

The Dems have done NOTHING to stem the flow of trillions to only the wealthiest. In fact, on Obama's watch, the amount of monetized debt is more than all of the money that ever existed on earth in Total before he was elected. If the derivative curve does not flatten, before his second term is done, the amount at risk under derivatives will be pushing a quadrillion. Of course the republicans are keynesian too. Weren't you paying attention. They are the same foul bastards as the Dems.

Greenspan's interest rates were sending us into bubble territory at the beginning of 1995 - and we're still there blowing more. None of your dems have done thing about it. They don't even raise a hand politely to question the actions of the Fed (who only act on our behalf of course).

Money with backing rather than fiat paper that is supported only by swelling debt that is only payable in certain currencies is not a new fear stew cooked up by Libertarians. Fiat always fails. And this time you've built your entire home out of it.

5000 years of history says that after Nixon signed away the standard in '71...both parties were complicit in what is about to happen.

My recommendation on what to do about government is to simply tighten your belt and save your money instead of buying worthless crap from China with it. Or overpriced real estate by the way. I guarantee they will get that message. In fact, they'll completely freak out. Our job as American's has simply been to spend every penny we have.

jazz music says

Cook and grow your food too, you'll live a lot longer.

Eat well, exercise daily, reduce stress, have sex, enjoy life, love nature. You will live a lot longer. Have you seen the lines at McDonalds?

Any free-market conservatives ever thumb through Adam Smith?

The amazing thing about dirty immigrants is that they go on welfare and steal our jobs at the same time.

Gosh darn them!

I know how to go on welfare, and how to get a job - both are despicable, dirty acts. But to do both?!

Bastards!

steph says

if anyone believes there is a difference between the right and left you are a fool.

There is a big difference between the left and right. Perhaps you meant to say between the established Democrat and Republican parties?

I'm in favor or American workers.

I am against immigration that doesn't help 1. American workers 2. benefit the USA

I am against abuse of work visa for foreigners program by businesses.

I don't believe in a WORLDWIDE free market for LABOR because this will continue to drive American wages DOWN

If abundant cheap labor were considered a boon to an economy, then Bangladesh, India, China and Mexico would have higher living standards than Norway, Switzerland, Austria and Singapore.

Just 33% of Mexicans have finished high school and are semi-literate in Spanish. There is no reason for us to accept them as immigrants.

The Fed buying a couple trillion in worthless mortgage-backed securities hasn't propped up the real estate market? Want to buy a river in Egypt?

Call it Crazy says

The future of the medical care in this country is fucked with all the medical complications coming from the fat population!!!

Keep avoiding the fat, and keep eating the "Light" extra-sugary corn syrup/corn meal diet crap.

November 2010 is the gift that keeps on giving.

Deal with it.

clambo says

I don't believe in a WORLDWIDE free market for LABOR

So you believe in free markets except when it hurts you?

Got it!

We don't need immigration reform. We need land mines and MG's at the border, along with a immediate death penalty for any illegals caught in the US. I would declare open season on them and pay a bounty on each dead one brought in.

hydrocabron, the USA can't benefit from a worldwide free market in labor.

The reason is that American labor would tend to be paid at the lower worldwide rate.

Most countries also protect their labor markets with strict work visa requirements. I invite you to go to Australia or New Zealand and find work.

Americans need 1. jobs 2. good wages.

Tens of millions of illegal alien foreign workers take 1&2 from Americans.

clambo says

hydrocabron, the USA can't benefit from a worldwide free market in labor.

The reason is that American labor would tend to be paid at the lower worldwide rate.

But businessmen and job creators need lower wages to create wealth for all of us.

The free market makes everyone better off. Read Adam Smith - the father of conservative economics - who showed how the invisible hand produces the most wealth for society.

Call it Crazy says

Unfortunately, what you wrote only applies to maybe 10% of the population...

I just got of off a cruise ship after a week.... approximately 90 PERCENT of the people on that ship were OVERWEIGHT!!! By at least 30 lbs.... This includes many in their 20's, not just the old people!!

Out of that 90 percent, I would say half of them were OBESE!!!!

This country has turned in one large ball of lard!!!

The future of the medical care in this country is fucked with all the medical complications coming from the fat population!!!

If you go to the gym on the ship the only people there are those who don't need to be there.
I go hiking with my dog on the trails by my house almost daily, and most of the hikers and bikers are extremely fit. I do see some regulars who are trying very hard to lose weight, and I have nothing but admiration for them. Even at the local gym those who really need to lose weight don't go there because they are embarrassed. If we can find a way round this we could be on the path to solve the obesity problem.

Hilary is so brain damaged she can't tell a tweetie from a twerk anymore, even with her special glasses, and thinks Obama's teleprompter is smart.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

it contained the face meat of a butchered black baby.

The black baby is a Rove staple: everyone who has ever run against a Bush has fathered a child with a black teenager.

Also, Paul Ryan stabbed an orca at SeaWorld and used the oil to burn thousands of senior citizens alive!

Hilary is so brain damaged, she thinks Bill tells the truth.

clambo says

There are no jobs Americans "won't do", there are wages and conditions Americans
don't like.

Because it's all relative. To a mexican who was making 60 pesos per day back home what they get in america is like manna from the sky. Meanwhile, our american teens refuse to work a cushy job at a mall and would rather be on facebook all day long and millenial college grads boomerang back home and refuse to work jobs that they feel they are too good for out of some misplaced sense of fake superiority.

John Bailo says

he wants as many dependent slave voters to cram in and become plantation
Democrats

I asked it before and I wil ask it again. What prevents the repubs from "competing" for those voters? How can the whole election strategy be so static as to rely perpetually on white male vote which is aging with every passing day?

Well, you have a point Dublin, but American teens can't find summer jobs precisely because those jobs are held by Mexican adults.

On one hand, I agree that perhaps kids are spoiled today. On the other, they are bombarded with bullshit everywhere.

Make no mistake, to a Mexican the wages here are beyond belief.

But, I remember when Americans did everything. A few years ago I went back to visit NYC and went to an "Italian" restaurant downtown.

The grub was OK but the owner was Russian and all the kitchen was Mexicans or other illegals. I will never go back, I'm done with that bullshit.

A Frenchman has a fancy restaurant uptown serving octopus over pasta for $37 a plate. He also has all Mexican workers in the kitchen.

As a matter of pride or stubborness or something, I won't eat at these places but sometimes a rich guy I know invites a few of us out and so I don't refuse.

Adults forget easily that although it's difficult, a teenager working gives him a sense of accomplishment and earning his own money makes him proud.

I worked at a carwash on Saturdays rather than ask my skinfllint father for a dime to get pizza or burgers. I mowed lawns, painted fences, scraped boats, scuba dove to check boat zincs, washed windows, washed dishes, cooked, etc.

None of the kids around today have this opportunity since everyone has a convenient source of Mexicans; just go to Home depot where they hang out.

"White male vote which is aging every day".

Are you one? If so, you have self-loathing issues and should seek help.

If not, you're a racist.

Which is it?

So, your support of illegal alien workers is that they deserve jobs more than the old white men?

Sorry but if you checked it, many of the congressmen and senators are YOUNG white men.

The only immigration reform I want to see is the one that includes border control and penalties for hiring illegals. Not an inch more or less.

This is pretty amazing considering the GOP lost the last election and the one before it because they lack any appeal to immigrants. You would think they had learned a lesson. Apparently not.

The Rep/Con/ Teas don't need an immigration bill. Bush & the Rep/Con Congress secured the border with Mexico,just ask any of the border states. They deported all illegals. Prosecuted all Rep/Con businesses that used illegals with massive fines & long prison sentences.
What's all the talk about a problem that's already solved? roflmao

clambo says

Cost of labor doesn't affect production, it only impacts profits of the owners of the enterprise. Overall wealth produced isn't affected.

Wow.

Let me spell it out for you: higher labor costs are entirely passed on to consumers, resulting in fewer goods sold, and fewer people employed. This has been repeated too many times here at Patrick.net to be a surprise to anyone: All costs (labor, materials, taxes, not dumping mercury in the aquifer, and not murdering kittens) are passed on to the consumer - no hit to profit is ever taken.

Plus, I'm not paying more just to cover the cost of paying employees, who are just union members anyway. People should work for pleasure, and to build character - I would hate to think they are motivated in any way by mammon.