patrick.net

Peter P says

they should have gotten a degree in Women Studies. At least they would have more realistic imaginary girlfriends in their minds.

Women studies is the den for Femi-Nazis. Even if they're attractive, you never know when they'll bite.

What you're talking about is English Lit. Now there ... you get some cuties with fashionable outfits, kinda like the Bronte sisters.

Rin says

Peter P says

they should have gotten a degree in Women Studies. At least they would have more realistic imaginary girlfriends in their minds.

Women studies is the den for Femi-Nazis. Even if they're attractive, you never know when they'll bite.

What you're talking about is English Lit. Now there ... you get some cuties with fashionable outfits, kinda like the Bronte sisters.

You are right! Creative writing is a much better bet.

Peter P says

mell says

Agreed. Although it pains me a bit to write Javascript jon the back-end just because node.js (no doubt a good framework for smaller projects) has become hotter than J-LO ;)

To me, any large-scale project that uses a non-typed language or tool is suspicious.

People have forgotten how much a well-designed type system can help with code quality and maintainability.

Agreed. My favorites are currently Scala (though Java 8 looks pretty pretty good) and Groovy. Groovy is prob. one of the most concise languages that allows duck typing as well as strict type checking where necessary, and it has a lot of functional plus all the OO goodness.

mell says

Peter P says

mell says

Agreed. Although it pains me a bit to write Javascript jon the back-end just because node.js (no doubt a good framework for smaller projects) has become hotter than J-LO ;)

To me, any large-scale project that uses a non-typed language or tool is suspicious.

People have forgotten how much a well-designed type system can help with code quality and maintainability.

Agreed. My favorites are currently Scala (though Java 8 looks pretty pretty good) and Groovy. Groovy is prob. one of the most concise languages that allows duck typing as well as strict type checking where necessary, and it has a lot of functional plus all the OO goodness.

I have done Groovy/Grails quite a bit back in 2008. I liked it better than Ruby/Rails.

What is great about Scala is strict-typing as well as type inference. The code can be concise and precise. It is the ULTIMATE OO language, yet with the expressiveness of a functional language.

Three gripes: lack of TCO, calls are not curried by default, nulls are still prevalent

As far as the language is concerned, I think F# is superior. However, I do prefer JVM over .NET.

F# is an amazing language. I wrote a Self-Organizing Map with graphics in 40 lines of code.

Better yet, the "pipe" operator eliminates the need for having many temp variables. Nulls are further discouraged, though still available for legacy/compatibility with .NET. Real tail-call optimizations. Very similar syntax/concept to ML/OCaml.

I think concurrency is handled better in Scala though.

I hate duck-typing of any shape or form. And I am saying this as a postmodernist.

STEM folk can't find jobs because Bill Gates and other billionaires are lobbying to import hundreds of thousands of H1Bs.

Portal says

STEM folk can't find jobs because Bill Gates and other billionaires are lobbying to import hundreds of thousands of H1Bs.

That is a myth. Good programmers are as rare as unicorns in the Bay Area. To protect the future of the software industry, it is foolish to further reduce the pool of candidates.

If talents cannot be sourced locally, companies will have no choice but to move overseas. The Bay Area will turn into another Rust Belt.

Rin said, "Really, any BA degree will suffice, for the sake of HR appearances. It's better for a person to learn a trade, work that trade while getting the BA part-time and online, at a Univ of Maryland or Penn State.
That degree then, is a bridge which allows the person to slide out of being 'blue collar' and more 'white collar', later on down the road."

Precisely, mate. This is the path to constant employment in this economy. The trades are where jobs are stacked in abundance, and a bright lad could go far by becoming expert in one and then consulting or going into management. I've been considering a move to management, myself. I've been blue collar for fifteen years, but I've still got that Bachelors in Chemistry, a prerequisite for such a move in many companies. I'd actually take a pay cut going this route, but I'd get my weekends back, which would be worth it.

Ok, aside from the premed, prelaw/patent agent, and finance destination careers for STEM folks ... what makes a programmer so remarkably different from let's say a person trained in applied math, chemical engineering, electronics engineering, nuclear physics, biomedical engineering, industrial engineering, and a host of other technical disciplines?

I'm a bit perplex as to the unicorn story for programmers, as the navy nuclear program takes students from the aforementioned list of programs (with high quantitative scores on some entrance exam) and whips 'em into shape in Power school down in South Carolina and those who make the cut (both in terms of endurance & mental clarity under pressure), end up on a vessel, running the nuclear stations.

Isn't becoming a "great" programmer, similar to what's described above, a person with a technical background, who's willing to hone his concentration into a single point of focus for lengthy periods of time?

Quigley says

I've been considering a move to management, myself... I'd actually take a pay cut going this route, but I'd get my weekends back, which would be worth it.

A friend did precisely that, then went back. He had a BS degree (the science kind), but found that did not align with the office BS requirement. Having worked for years in an environment where results are plainly visible, he hadn't developed the mission critical arts of eliding unintended consequences and redirecting blame.

Peter P says

That is a myth. Good programmers are as rare as unicorns in the Bay Area. To protect the future of the software industry, it is foolish to further reduce the pool of candidates.

Why are they using H1B's to replace even the mediocre programmers, then? I don't get it.

Why not just screen for the unicorns, and ship them over?

I'll show up to meet them at the airport, with party streamers and a kazoo, seeing as there are so few of them.

Rin says

Isn't becoming a "great" programmer, similar to what's described above, a person with a technical background, who's willing to hone his concentration into a single point of focus for lengthy periods of time?

Except that software is a left AND right brain exercise. It is just as qualitative as it is quantitative.

A Computer Science degree is not even required. A Math (pure or applied) degree works just fine. No matter how they try to spin it, but software is NOT engineering.

HydroCabron says

Peter P says

That is a myth. Good programmers are as rare as unicorns in the Bay Area. To protect the future of the software industry, it is foolish to further reduce the pool of candidates.

Why are they using H1B's to replace even the mediocre programmers, then? I don't get it.

As a junior executive, here's my personal viewpoint ... companies have these regard-itus ideas like "I want a championship team, not a team full of champions"

What that means is that they like this idea of having a few ... let's call 'em alpha worker types around ... but the rest of the work, should be done as cheaply a/o outsourced if possible. So a program director/architect has tremendous power and influence, however, those who report to him should be utterly powerless but work effectively under his dominion. A way to do this, w/o mass defection/turnover, is to hire H1-Bs who'll do as they're told.

HydroCabron says

Why are they using H1B's to replace even the mediocre programmers, then? I don't get it.

Why not just screen for the unicorns, and ship them over?

It is easier to find unicorns if you look at more horses. Many horses will never become unicorns no matter how you raise them.

Sometimes it is just hard to screen candidates before they are hired.

Besides, why should the government interfere in the hiring process?

Peter P says

Except that software is a left AND right brain exercise. It is just as qualitative as it is quantitative.

Sure, but why couldn't a so-called all purpose Navy Nuke, not be able to harness his mind to solve these programs?

If you know about systems engineering, we did some back in ChemE, the use and development of heuristics was a big way of getting things done w/o always going back to heavily weighted mathematical rigorous design & analysis. The idea is that one is trained to think in terms of being open minded, while technical, in solving problems.

Sure, today, lazy ones fall back to some MathLab automated solution but in terms of how things were taught originally, when non-linearity arose, the use of heuristics, in place of rigorous mathematics, was always under consideration.

Rin says

A way to do this, w/o mass defection/turnover, is to hire H1-Bs who'll do as they're told.

Most workers do as they are told anyway. Moreover, a true leader gives his minions the illusion of self-control. Imports are not necessarily easier to "charm" than locals.

Peter P says

Rin says

A way to do this, w/o mass defection/turnover, is to hire H1-Bs who'll do as they're told.

Most workers do as they are told anyway. Moreover, a true leader gives his minions the illusion of self-control. Imports are not necessarily easier to "charm" than locals.

If one's a dickweed boss, which many are, the locals can jump ship but stay in the country.

Not all engineering is software.

Believe me, half the guys I work with are H1Bs. They cannot quit when they are told to work 24 hours straight because if they do they will revoke their visa. They are paid slightly less than american engineers but will work in much worse conditions because they have to. H1Bs are no better or worse than any american engineers... and that is exactly why you need to hire american engineers!

They say they are only bringing the best and the brightest, but they want to raise the H1B cap to 120k per year. Do not tell me you have 120K of the "best and brightest".

Rin says

The idea is that one is trained to think in terms of being open minded, while technical, in solving problems.

Perhaps, but software is rather ill-defined to be classified as "solvable" problems. It is too much of a moving target. One can approach it like a math puzzle, but any kind of rigid analysis will be futile. Heuristics can work for a while, but they entail assumptions that are bound to be in flux.

Rin says

If one's a dickweed boss, which many are, the locals can jump ship but stay in the country.

In reality, the distinction is less dramatic. Even locals have egos to satisfy. An attack to their worth is no more benign than an attack to their ability to stay n the country. Both are irrational, IMO.

Portal says

H1Bs are no better or worse than any american engineers... and that is exactly why you need to hire american engineers!

The problem is that it's for the wrong industry.

For instance, in the US, there are a number of projects to build out synfuel stations. There are simply not enough experienced chemical engineers for this work. In this case, my experience and my friends at the Navy Nuclear program, along with Exxon/Chevron/Shell, don't have the right profile.

Those H1-Bs need to go to engineers and consultants, who're experienced at Sasol Corp in South Africa, in synfuel production and applications, as Sasol has five decades of experience in the matter. These experienced ppl are critical in building critical mass in the US, for coal to gasoline conversion facilities.

Instead of that, they go to ordinary programmer analysts, who'd taken at most, a few college classes in those areas.

Peter P says

Heuristics can work for a while, but they entail assumptions that are bound to be in flux.

That's the thing, it is in flux and that's what makes for a great career in development and analysis. Engineers should definitely be paid as well as doctors.

Portal says

They cannot quit when they are told to work 24 hours straight because if they do they will revoke their visa.

There are always weak minds. I have friends who work long hours because they are "on a mission" to develop something cool and groundbreaking. Whatever.

Rin says

Peter P says

Heuristics can work for a while, but they entail assumptions that are bound to be in flux.

That's the thing, it is in flux and that's what makes for a great career in development and analysis. Engineers should definitely be paid as well as doctors.

I agree. I am all for importing foreign doctors and create a multi-tier healthcare system.

New Renter says

Companies would be willing to recruit people with no skills off the street and provide on the job training; however as we know that's not at all what's actually happening.

I am very curious about that perennial discrepancy. I read comments from executives complaining that they can't find employees with the precise training they are looking for, and that the company is not in the education business. Well, if you are looking for such precise training, then why aren't you in the education business? The stated reasons seem pretextual, for example the fear that people might immediately take their new skills elsewhere can be addressed contractually with non-competes. I tend to suspect the real reason is as Rin described above, i.e. they prefer more vulnerable workers who can be abused because of immigration status or student loan peonage.

My degree was supposed to make me qualified as a programmer, but by the time I left school, all of the software and programming languages I’d learned had been obsolete for years.

If you're just starting to program in college, it's already too late. You will be competing with people who started programming when they were five and have been seriously devoting a thousand hours a year to that craft for over a decade before they even enter college. And they do that because they are generally interested in developing software, not because they have to do something for a living. A hack who just tries to enter software his freshman year of college is a fool.

By the time I was graduate high school I had far surpassed all the college professors and most professional programmers. During college I learned far more on my own than in my classes. During elementary school to college, I taught myself
- Basic, Pascal, C, C++, and Java (.NET wasn't out yet)
- graphics
- multithreading
- network programming (back when 90% of programmers didn't even know how to talk over a network)
- the OSI seven layer network stack
- databases
- the Intel MMX and XMM instructions

And that was all outside of my classes.

Software development is like the Olympics. You have to start when you are young in order to compete.

To find real work, I had to teach myself new technologies and skills outside of class, and it wasn’t easy.

If this doesn't appeal very strongly to you, don't even bother with software development. A good software developer has to learn as much as a good doctor has to learn, except that in software, you have to learn that amount every five years because everything changes in that time. Imagine being in medical school your entire life while also working. That's what software development is.

If you're not prepared to do that, don't bitch and moan when you find out that's what it takes. Software can pay well, but it's not easy. If you want an easy career, look elsewhere.

curious2 says

I read comments from executives complaining that they can't find employees with the precise training they are looking for, and that the company is not in the education business.

Again, it is hard to find semi-decent programmers even if you are not looking for a precise skill set. A scary number of candidates cannot even write simple programs on the whiteboard.

Too many STEM students picked their majors because of salary expectations. I am sorry but most of them are crap.

An passionate English major will do better in life than a tiger-parented engineer.

Dan8267 says

Software development is like the Olympics. You have to start when you are young in order to compete.

Not necessarily young but everything must click. It is like golf. But I know people who went from beginner to scratch in two years.

Why are people so willing to forgo their passion and whore their way to financial slavery?

There ought to be a way to better exploit them.

Dan8267 says

Software development is like the Olympics. You have to start when you are young in order to compete.

I question that assertion, although I agreed with most of your comment prior to that point. If you look at really brilliant programmers from NSA for example, they don't become idiots after 40. To the contrary, their capabilities may continue to grow, but the issue is that their motivations may change. Young people may be obsessed with programming 24/7 and then encumbered by student loans that chain them to the highest paying desk they can find. Older people may have spouses and kids that interfere with their work schedule, and/or enough money in the bank that their cost/benefit and risk profiles change. You don't need to be young to program like Edward Snowden, but you might need to be young to walk into exile like he did. Bill Gates turned from programming to other things, but if he were really motivated to learn the new programming tools, I think he could catch up to the best fairly quickly.

drew_eckhardt says

Hardly. There is absolutely a shortage of competent software engineers.

Peter P says

don't know. Programmers are still in huge demand in the Bay Area.

STEM

Science
Technical
Engineering
Mathamatics

So far all I have heard from you people is of a shortage of exceptional (competent) programmers in the SFBA. Guess what - STEM is a bigger catchall which includes more than than just programmers.

The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement lists disciplines including:[11] Physics, Actuarial Science, Chemistry, Biology, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, Statistics, Computer Science, Computational Science, Psychology, Biochemistry, Robotics, Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, Mechanical Engineering, Industrial Engineering, Information Science, Civil Engineering, Aerospace Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Astrophysics, Astronomy, Optics, Nanotechnology, Nuclear Physics, Mathematical Biology, Operations Research, Neurobiology, Biomechanics, Bioinformatics, Acoustical engineering, Geographic Information Systems, Atmospheric Sciences, Educational/Instructional technology, Software Engineering, and Educational Research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields

Is there a similar shortage of non-programming chemists, biologists, biochemists, molecular biologists, aerospace engineers, particle physicists, surface chemists, civil engineers, etc? No? Then there is no STEM shortage, there is just a shortage of exceptional, highly specialized programmers.

Programmers/CS/CE are a narrow subset of STEM yet the media screams STEM SHORTAGE when in reality most of the STEM world has nothing resembling a shortage whatsoever.

Does a severe shortage of SFR housing in say SF translate to a shortage of available apartments in Gary Indiana? Of course not but the media hype of STEM SHORTAGE is akin to screaming US HOUSING SHORTAGE when the shortage is limited ( in this hypothetical case) to *just* SFR in SF.

You guys remind me of a couple of drunken fratboys complaining there aren't any women around when in reality you mean only attractive young women actually willing to go home with you for a no strings attached bangfest without demanding money. In reality you are surrounded by women but just none that fit your incredibly narrow and unrealistic demands for a date.

New Renter says

Then there is no STEM shortage, there is just a shortage of exceptional, highly specialized programmers.

Trust me, companies want exceptional generalists instead.

New Renter says

bangfest without demanding money

That part isn't a problem for me :-)

New Renter says

Then there is no STEM shortage, there is just a shortage of exceptional, highly specialized programmers.

Programmers/CS/CE are a narrow subset of STEM yet the media screams STEM SHORTAGE when in reality most of the STEM world has nothing resembling a shortage whatsoever.

Isn't this the bane of the so-called culture of the principal investigators? The men in power hold all the cards and thus, demands a STEM shortage, to maintain their R&D fiefdoms.

New Renter says

So far all I have heard from you people is of a shortage of exceptional (competent) programmers in the SFBA

BTW, there is a shortage of exceptional prop traders in finance.

And the reason for that is they're already millionaires and thus, demand more of the firm's bonuses than anyone else.

If anything, you want to be that *unicorn*.

Peter P says

New Renter says

Then there is no STEM shortage, there is just a shortage of exceptional, highly specialized programmers.

Trust me, companies want exceptional generalists instead.

Fine, whatever. STEM is still far, far more than just exceptional generalist programmers who are willing to rent a crapshack in the SFBA and spend 2+ hrs in the car each day because their employer isn't willing to let them work from home even though programming is about the ONLY STEM profession one CAN do at home.

Rin says

New Renter says

bangfest without demanding money

That part isn't a problem for me :-)

You're also not the one bitching about a STEM shortage.

Rin says

New Renter says

So far all I have heard from you people is of a shortage of exceptional (competent) programmers in the SFBA

BTW, there is a shortage of exceptional prop traders in finance.

And the reason for that is they're already millionaires and thus, demand more of the firm's bonuses than anyone else.

If anything, you want to be that *unicorn*.

Yeah. That skill is even harder to come by. Worse yet, some promising prop traders are false prophets who end up losing big.

Peter P says

Yeah. That skill is even harder to come by. Worse yet, some promising prop traders are false prophets who end up losing big.

maybe because that profession rewards bullshit more than facts.

Rin says

My degree was supposed to make me qualified as a programmer, but by the time I left school, all of the software and programming languages I’d learned had been obsolete for years.

I'm still coding using COBOL. Lot's of gigs available.