patrick.net

It's a yay. The ones who get increases are also consumers, and local ones at that. Yet, not all consumers are minimum wage employees, therefore, adding a few cents to a good or service won't hurt those of us above the pay floor, yet will increase consumption for millions.

Conversely, if the minimum wage increase is a bad idea, then why not lower it and help the business owner make even more profit? Why not cut your salary for the same purpose? Or is it only the poor who deserve to have their pockets picked?

The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation, so I'd say not only should it increase, but perhaps reparations are due since the wealthy have been skimming off the top of these workers' wages for decades.

The ONLY sensible minimum wage is $0.00/hr, indexed to inflation.

CL says

It's a yay. The ones who get increases are also consumers, and local ones at that. Yet, not all consumers are minimum wage employees, therefore, adding a few cents to a good or service won't hurt those of us above the pay floor, yet will increase consumption for millions.

Conversely, if the minimum wage increase is a bad idea, then why not lower it and help the business owner make even more profit? Why not cut your salary for the same purpose? Or is it only the poor who deserve to have their pockets picked?

The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation, so I'd say not only should it increase, but perhaps reparations are due since the wealthy have been skimming off the top of these workers' wages for decades.

What you are proposing in creating a very large lower class...gee entirely similiar to Europe. So no one goes hungry(except those that do) and the .1% rich get even richer while no one else ever does. Good one(see my above comment about being incapable of rational thought).

And to your proposal to lower the minimum wage...yes, in fact that would be of benefit.

What you mutts fail to realize, amongst other things, is that price discovery is what separates the US from a communist country.

CL says

Conversely, if the minimum wage increase is a bad idea, then why not lower it and help the business owner make even more profit? Why not cut your salary for the same purpose? Or is it only the poor who deserve to have their pockets picked?

Yes! Lower it to $0.00/hr. More economic activities everywhere.

Perhaps visitors should avoid cities with higher minimum wages. Service is going to suck. For example, who is going to hire bathroom attendants at $14/hr?

Peter P says

The ONLY sensible minimum wage is $0.00/hr, indexed to inflation.

I think we refer to these type of employees as unpaid interns.

Call it Crazy says

So, the NET affect of minimum wage increases becomes ZERO to the workers, because these workers might see an increase in their paycheck but it's going to cost them more when they go spend it at different stores and businesses who raised their prices to cover their own employees...

Worse yet, consumers suffer because many services are no longer viable. Restroom attendants, doormen, etc.

Just as a note Vanderbilt made his fortune by improving water transportation around NY in some cases lowering the fares to ZERO, and only made money on the concessions. And no he was NOT subsidized.

I guess that opportunity would be gone or less likely with minimum wage?

Call it Crazy says

the business owner has to raise prices on his products or services to cover
his additional costs.

So, the NET affect of minimum wage increases becomes ZERO to the workers,
because these workers might see an increase in their paycheck but it's going to
cost them more when they go spend it at different stores and businesses who
raised their prices to cover their own employees

Your business math ineptitude is showing here. As if raising the minimum wage by $X raises the price of every good and service =>$X.

Inflation and stagnant wages have whittled spending to the bone, and the minimum wage needs periodic adjustments for this. Some of my fellow small business owners fail to recognize that these workers are our customers, or our customers' customers. Advocating that their wages remain fixed hurts us too!

Automan Empire says

Inflation and stagnant wages have whittled spending to the bone, and the minimum wage needs periodic adjustments for this. Some of my fellow small business owners fail to recognize that these workers are our customers, or our customers' customers. Advocating that their wages remain fixed hurts us too!

Those "poor" customers seem to have no problem buying a new iPhone every two years.

Automan Empire says

Call it Crazy says

the business owner has to raise prices on his products or services to cover

his additional costs.

So, the NET affect of minimum wage increases becomes ZERO to the workers,

because these workers might see an increase in their paycheck but it's going to

cost them more when they go spend it at different stores and businesses who

raised their prices to cover their own employees

Your business math ineptitude is showing here. As if raising the minimum wage by $X raises the price of every good and service =>$X.

Inflation and stagnant wages have whittled spending to the bone, and the minimum wage needs periodic adjustments for this. Some of my fellow small business owners fail to recognize that these workers are our customers, or our customers' customers. Advocating that their wages remain fixed hurts us too!

????

If that occurs, it's an effective cost increase to everyone at a certain wage level and up. Not everyone gets a wage increase because minimum wage rises(and in fact some wages within a percentage of min raise will fall to or near min wage)

Like I said the net effect is to create a large permanent lower class.

Automan Empire says

Your business math ineptitude is showing here.

Your economic ineptitude is showing here.

Automan Empire says

Inflation and stagnant wages have whittled spending to the bone

Close but no cigar

Automan Empire says

and the minimum wage needs periodic adjustments for this.

What is needed is economics 101

Automan Empire says

Some of my fellow small business owners fail to recognize that these workers are our customers, or our customers' customers. Advocating that their wages remain fixed hurts us too!

Yes the Henry Ford myth, first of all the math you mention regarding this does not pencil out as it would have a negligible effect in HF 's time or now.
Secondly that is NOT why HF did it, it was strictly about retaining workers and being able to push them harder without quitting.

Call it Crazy says

So, the NET affect of minimum wage increases becomes ZERO to the workers, because these workers might see an increase in their paycheck but it's going to cost them more when they go spend it at different stores and businesses who raised their prices to cover their own employees...

Except those stores and businesses have more than minimum wage consumers--they spread the costs to all consumers, rich and poor alike. So, the costs are not levied upon the lowest wage earners.

Even if the wages increases for the next echelon, that can be handled by all consumers too. It would result in a leveling of income from those who can afford it the most, the top percentile, to the bottom percentile.

If a toilet paper factory raised the pay of its employees by a dollar, each roll of toilet paper would go up a dime. I can't even tell you what the price of toilet paper is since I don't price shop. But the poor won't use up any more paper than they did prior to the increase, and the rich won't notice. The worker would gladly get the increase, and pay for the higher priced ass-wipes.

CL says

Conversely, if the minimum wage increase is a bad idea, then why not lower it and help the business owner make even more profit?

The relevance of minimum wage varies depending on competition in the labor market. In a rural area with only one major employer, a minimum wage protects workers who would otherwise lack bargaining power. In an urban area with many different employers, competition for jobs and workers tends to provide price discovery indicating the value of labor, which would otherwise be replaced by automation.

CL says

I don't price shop.

And yet, you opine on economics and specifically the price of labor. You divide the world falsely into "the rich" and "the poor" without even knowing where you fall on that scale. If you get hyperinflation and the price goes to $1bn and your "smart" credit card can't buy anything anymore, you'll start to see why other people do "price shop" and pay attention to the risks of inflation. I didn't answer the OP because I don't live in LA and I don't pretend to know what the minimum wage should be there, but I certainly don't imagine that it's free money like manna from heaven. If you want to feel virtuous about helping "the poor" without doing any actual intellectual work, support the fast food workers trying to organize a union; if they succeed, McD's profits might fall, and the Captain might pay more for his junk "food", but it won't do much harm, because nobody needs to eat that stuff anyway.

Peter P says

Call it Crazy says

So, the NET affect of minimum wage increases becomes ZERO to the workers, because these workers might see an increase in their paycheck but it's going to cost them more when they go spend it at different stores and businesses who raised their prices to cover their own employees...

Worse yet, consumers suffer because many services are no longer viable. Restroom attendants, doormen, etc.

Restroom attendants are creepy. It's not amusing to have a strange man begin to massage my shoulders when I'm wang in hand trying to take a piss.
And then they always want a tip. It's like a tax on whizzing! Who needs that?

Quigley says

Who needs that?

Wow, are you sure that was a restroom attendant and not a Republican Senator? In my experience, restroom attendants seem totally indifferent and never even offer (let alone begin) to massage anyone's shoulders. Did he seem to have a "wide stance", or mention a history of commenting on PatNet (e.g. Bop69, Forthood, TOB)?

Nay...

Business would just hire illegals-it is LA.

lostand confused says

Business would just hire illegals-it is LA.

They already do? If the thought police come around, they will want to do a tally, which will not end well...

Quigley says

Peter P says

Call it Crazy says

So, the NET affect of minimum wage increases becomes ZERO to the workers, because these workers might see an increase in their paycheck but it's going to cost them more when they go spend it at different stores and businesses who raised their prices to cover their own employees...

Worse yet, consumers suffer because many services are no longer viable. Restroom attendants, doormen, etc.

Restroom attendants are creepy. It's not amusing to have a strange man begin to massage my shoulders when I'm wang in hand trying to take a piss.

And then they always want a tip. It's like a tax on whizzing! Who needs that?

The attendant can keep the restroom clean at all times. He can also offer me a variety of hand lotions.

CL says

Conversely, if the minimum wage increase is a bad idea, then why not lower it and help the business owner make even more profit? Why not cut your salary for the same purpose? Or is it only the poor who deserve to have their pockets picked?

The idea of having low minimum wages is not so that businesses can profit, it's so businesses will have an incentive to hire teenagers who might otherwise resort to crime.

Call it Crazy says

What causes inflation?

Higher wages not based on productivity will definitely add to inflation...."Wage push inflation"

Call it Crazy says

Wow... Very Good!! You get an A+

Yeeaayyyy. I remembered something from Econ 101.

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

Call it Crazy says

Wow... Very Good!! You get an A+

Yeeaayyyy. I remembered something from Econ 101.

That's exactly what I thought!!

Any chance of teaching that to the brain dead ones here?

Not a chance.

It is in effect what the Davis Bacon act did to contractors that were bringing cheaper labor up from the south to do construction jobs in the north east.

This law said that you had to pay all workers prevailing wages. This meant that only the most skilled workers would be used in order for the contractor to remain competitive.

This stopped all entry level workers from entering the field. Of course automation was a way to get around this problem as well.

Strategist says

Call it Crazy says

What causes inflation?

Higher wages not based on productivity will definitely add to inflation...."Wage push inflation"

Why would that be a bad thing? My guess would be that the effect tapers the higher up the scale you go. Since we are fighting deflation and income/wealth inequality, the effect would be to lower the value of the wealthiest folks while increasing the spending power of the bottom half.

curious2 says

And yet, you opine on economics and specifically the price of labor. You divide the world falsely into "the rich" and "the poor" without even knowing where you fall on that scale

Someone hasn't had their tea. Yawn/yap/yawn.

I know what the minimum wage should be! HIGHER! When you adjust for inflation, Sam Walton paid his employees more than they are paid today. If workers are desperate enough, they will work for a dollar. The business class love their desperation, but that doesn't make for a health economy or a contented working class.

curious2 says

In a rural area with only one major employer, a minimum wage protects workers who would otherwise lack bargaining power. In an urban area with many different employers, competition for jobs and workers tends to provide price discovery indicating the value of labor, which would otherwise be replaced by automation.

You have introduced two very different ideas here: bargaining power, and price discovery. The first is appropriate but it exists in both rural and urban settings. Business has the leverage and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. It is obvious when you look at corporate profits. And it is why legislation is needed to increase the value of labor w.r.t. the value of capital.

I don't see the issue with price discovery.

Strategist says

Higher wages not based on productivity will definitely add to inflation...."Wage push inflation"

Not necessarily. Price is determined by supply and demand and is INDEPENDENT of cost. That should be obvious looking at corporate profits.

Strategist says

Call it Crazy says

Wow... Very Good!! You get an A+

Yeeaayyyy. I remembered something from Econ 101.

lol. No, you both get Fs.

FFS, that is one of the most basic lessons of ECON 101.

I'll agree that it should be higher, but I'm not sure how much higher. Maybe $10/hour would be reasonable. Anyone who works long term for minimum wage is either mentally retarded or a serious slacker. $10/hour would strike a balance, encourage teens to get jobs, and perhaps lift all boats.

Call it Crazy says

tatupu70 says

Price is determined by supply and demand and is INDEPENDENT of cost.

Sure, right up to the point that you don't turn a profit and close the doors to your business.

tatupu70 says

that is one of the most basic lessons of ECON 101.

Which you know NOTHING about, as all your past posts have shown us!

If your business model is so flimsy that you can't afford to pay your workers a reasonable wage, maybe you should close your doors and leave business to someone with more skill at it.

You mutts are retarded...

Quigley says

If your business model is so flimsy that you can't afford to pay your workers a reasonable wage, maybe you should close your doors and leave business to someone with more skill at it.

Well, an alternative would be to take a dollar or two per hour from all of your employees. Instant profit! Need more? Take 3 or 4!

Employees are customers too.

Wage push inflation has little to do with increased prices in the manner described.

In a competitive market, firms produce goods until marginal cost = marginal revenue. An increase in marginal costs through increased wages leads to an upward shift in the MC curve, in short, the firm produces less. Since the market supply curve is simply a combination of cost curves for all market participants, this leads to a shift upward in the market supply curve. In short, the price iincreases because the market supply is less provided demand remains constant. HOWEVER,

The rub lies within how increasing market wages effects market demand for a particular good. That is, if increased wages do not add qualified demand to a particular good, then supply falls, and profitability falls within that marketplace, ie - Business jet demand is not increased by an increase in minimum wage - no business jet buyers are created through a minimum wage increase.

But for the majority of businesses who rely on minimum wages - like fast food - a minium wage increase will help them. This is because their employees are their customers - and an increase in their income translates to an increase in their qualified demand for fast food. Less of the aggragate national income is being sucked to the top, where the demand for fast food in not increased with minimum wage increases. Therefore price increases are driven by increased demand shifting their Marginal Revenue curves upward MORE than their marginal cost curves were shifted upward.

At higher sales, same fixed costs, more sales and same average marginal profit margin per unit = more profit.

control point says

minium wage increase will help them. This is because their employees are their customers -

Not true this is the Henry Ford meme

indigenous says

control point says

minium wage increase will help them. This is because their employees are their customers -

Not true this is the Henry Ford meme

Do you think your customers are not someone else's employees? Golden rule time ...

So who are the employees? What do they do with they earnings? Do they eat air and not spend their income? Why do they work?

Quigley says

Do you think your customers are not someone else's employees? Golden rule time ...

Why do I get the feeling you hang out with errc?

thunderlips11 says

So who are the employees? What do they do with they earnings? Do they eat air and not spend their income? Why do they work?

At the lower quintile they are not wasting money on fast food. How many fast food restaurants do you see in predominately Mexican areas?

indigenous says

control point says

minium wage increase will help them. This is because their employees are their customers -

Not true this is the Henry Ford meme

Gotta love the internet. Someone can make a supported argument - I could draw a few graphs that illustrate the point, show some examples of when it was observed in the past, and provide a general explanation of inflation affecting different goods in different ways and how it can be beneficial to certain businesses.

The only neccesary counterargument on the internet is "Not True" followed by a shit eating grin and sense of accomplishment. Ignorance truly is bliss.