patrick.net

Quigley says

Why should anyone take you more seriously than, say, David Duke?

I take exception to being compared to David Duke as the KKK is a Democratic organization.

Quigley says

A mutt is a dog of mixed breed. Since you are clearly using the word as a perjorative, it is implied that you believe mixed race people to be of poor quality.

While I use the word as a pejorative, I am not referring to the color of one's skin but rather an unwillingness to consider anything outside of their provincial views, which is purely their actions.

BTW how am I supposed to know what race anyone is on this forum, if I do care.

BBTW racist is the last thing Libertarians are E.G. I hate Obama not because of his race but rather because of his actions. I love Thomas Sowell and Walter E Williams, race is irrelevant.

I find the term "Heinz 57 decerebrate" much less offensive.

Bigsby says

A level playing field over the last 50 years? Please tell me you're joking.

You bet, racism is a creation of the government. E.G. Black unemployment was lower than white unemployment until minimum wage, Davis Bacon, and other discrimination laws.

indigenous says

Bigsby says

A level playing field over the last 50 years? Please tell me you're joking.

You bet, racism is a creation of the government. E.G. Black unemployment was lower than white unemployment until minimum wage, Davis Bacon, and other discrimination laws.

That is possibly the most moronic thing you've posted and that's saying something. Racism is a creation of the government? How fucking stupid are you?

Then I should obviously avoid arguing with you.

Bigsby says

How fucking stupid are you?

That depends on who you ask.

Clearly you are incapable of considering anything outside you provincial allowable opinions...

indigenous says

Bigsby says

How fucking stupid are you?

That depends on who you ask.

Clearly you are incapable of considering anything outside you provincial allowable opinions...

Oh right, so thinking your view that racism is 'a creation of the government' is bloody moronic is a 'provincial allowable opinion,' is it? Ha, ha, ha.

Bill Whittle's Top 5 Conservative Principles (ascending order)

OK, I watched this video. I've never heard of Bill Whittle, so I went in tabular rosa. I even was optimistic when he said off the bat that these are the principles he personally thinks are most important, but might not be what other conservatives believe. I thought maybe this guy is what a conservative should be even if he's not reflective of actual self-identifying conservatives. Unfortunately, I was wrong.

Let's go over his points.

5. Individuality
"This is one of the essential ideas of modern conservatism. The love of and respect for the individual person."

If only this were true, but it is not true, not even remotely. The following video is a perfect example of a conservative cop demonstrating the conservative's absolute antipathy for individuality.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/yMNtuuJ0vVE

When I posted that video in this thread, a typical conservative, Strategist, stated

If I go visit Union Sq, I do not want to see freaks sleeping, defecating, urinating in public areas.

Now the persons in the above video were not doing any of those things. Nor was there any reason for any sane person to believe that they were going to do such things. Yet, the conservative calls them "freaks" and expresses utter contempt for them based solely upon their appearance.

Now there is no way that a guy with a green mohawk would ever hang out with or even talk to a computer nerd like me. This is exactly the kind of guy who in high school would have thought he's too cool to be anywhere around someone like me. Yet, as a liberal, I have no problem with this person expressing his fashion preferences with leather jackets, piercings, and a green mohawk even though I personally find them to be conformist, silly, and shallow. I would not judge him to be a criminal or a despicable person based on such shallow criteria.

In contrast, conservatives do despise such individualism and even believe that is alright to violate the legal rights of such persons solely because of the conservative's distaste for the culture of these people.

Despite all this, I would have been willing to accept that Bill Whittle was an enlightened conservative -- I know, that's an oxymoron -- if only he had kept his mouth shut. But alas, he made the same mistake that all conservatives do. He kept talking.

Whittle deliberately misuses the term progressivism. Progressivism has nothing to do with provoking culture wars. That's just an outright lie. In fact, throughout the video, Whittle will repurpose the word progressivism to mean the exact opposite of what it actually means.

Even more insulting, he tries to twist the entire civil rights movement, which was strongly opposed by conservatives, even filibustered by quintessential conservative Strom Thurmond. If Martin Luther King, Jr. is a conservative as Whittle portrays, then Republicans (formally Dixiecrats) most certainly are not conservative.

4. Guns
"Conservatives respect the rule of law."

Empirically false. Conservatives rallied around Ted Bundy. They have no respect for financial or environmental laws. They tolerate crimes committed by corporations for profits, by cops for ego, soldiers against "the enemy" and any innocent caught in the crossfire, and politicians for personal gain as long as the politician is in their party.

Conservatives cherry pick which laws they follow.

"Second, the right to keep and bear arms is a reflection of the value we place on individuals."

If that were true, then conservatives would have never strived so hard to keep guns out of the hands of blacks.

Note: Despite the Second Amendment, we do not have the right to bear arms. Arms include a hell of a lot of things beside guns. It includes tanks, flame-throwers, mines, missiles, and nuclear warheads.

Conclusion: Yes, the possession of guns by some people, not all, is certainly a top principle of conservatives, but not for the reasons he's given.

3. Equality of Opportunity

Hell, that's exactly what Progressivism is. Again he lies about what Progressivism is.

Furthermore, conservative actions have always been to ensure privilege, not equality of opportunity. From slavery to segregation to basing access to education and health care on wealth, conservatives have done everything to ensure an uneven playing ground.

2. Wealth Creation

Here he goes into a Straw Man argument that you either believe wealth can be created or that it is forever fixed and nothing can create wealth. He argues that zero-sum games cannot exist if any wealth can be created. Even a five-year-old can see this is a false statement.

The argument between conservatism and its oppositions has to do with conservatives wanting ownership, not wealth production, to be the basis for who gets what share of the wealth production. Everyone else wants distribution to be determined based, to some degree or another, on what wealth people actually produce.

1. Freedom and Responsibility

"Now since we believe in individuals, we believe that they should be allowed to pursue their own personal happiness right up to the point where their pursuit infringes on someone else's pursuit."

Change the second instance of the word "pursuit", in red, to "rights" and you have the definition of liberal. Yeah, this guy is claiming that conservatives are liberals.

We only have to go to the example of the guy with the mohawk to see that conservatives do not believe in this principle. If conservatives actually believed in the quote above, then they would have no problem with gay marriage, gay pride parades, recreational marijuana usage, anti-pollution laws, or anything else that we liberals want.

In conclusion, Bill Whittle has blatantly lied about both what conservatism believes and what the oppositions to conservatism believe. If Bill Whittle actually believed in the things he claims to believe, then he would be both a liberal and a progressive.

You can't be a true liberal until you learn to steal by proxy, citing some ludicrous and unworkable fantasy of social bliss, contentment and harmony while rhapsodizing about the goodness and equality of men, then keep all the money for yourself.

Dan8267 says

In conclusion, Bill Whittle has blatantly lied about both what conservatism believes and what the oppositions to conservatism believe. If Bill Whittle actually believed in the things he claims to believe, then he would be both a liberal and a progressive.

Well done. I love how he says conservatives want everyone to start at the same place - he uses the 100 yard dash as an analogy. Holy fuck, I can't believe he said that with a straight face.

indigenous says

that will never be understood by the mutts

So "everyone could be like me!".

Except of course we're "mutts" who are incapable of understanding and thus deserve only a boot on the back of our necks.

Aren't "mutts" part and parcel of that melting pot thingy that is sporadically supposed to be good for America? Or is it, only as long as all the brown bits melting into the pot, turn out lily white?

I like mutts, it's not the perjorative you use it as.

Bill Murray said it best!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXjqTyQuq4w

rooemoore says

I love how he says conservatives want everyone to start at the same place

Yeah, the entire video can be summed up as a conservative acknowledging that conservatism is evil by falsely stating that conservatism is the exact opposite of what it actually is and then claiming how good that is.

The only part that was slightly truthful was that conservatives are pro-gun, but even that part was disingenuous as to why and with respect to whom.

Vicente says

indigenous says

that will never be understood by the mutts

It's comically hypocritical that indigenous posts a video proclaiming principles that he venomously opposes like individuality and a level playing field.

- Freedom and Responsibility
- Individuality

These are keywords that sound good but in practice are used to justify the worse corporate abuses.

Example: let the bank give a liar loan to the poor idiot buying an overpriced shack at the top of the market and didn't read the mortgage documents.

Conservatives: yes that's the "individual" "responsibility" of the poor idiot.

It's all: let the big corporations do whatever they want, practice fraud, extortion, and con jobs with impunity, corrupt lawmakers, etc, etc...

If conservatives love a level playing field, why are they so opposed to the estate tax? Why do they constantly lobby government for preferential rules and treatment to give their business an edge over others? Why do they defend predatory pricing of drugs for Americans vs the rest of the world with "property rights!?"
Increasingly, I see that a conservative is the same thing as a feudal lord, jealously defending his position atop the lowly serfs and his right to abuse them.

Heraclitusstudent says

Example: let the bank give a liar loan to the poor idiot buying an overpriced shack at the top of the market and didn't read the mortgage documents.

Conservatives: yes that's the "individual" "responsibility" of the poor idiot.

Ah but there is absolutely not problem with this as both bear the consequences. The debt-serfs will default and the bank will go bankrupt.. unless they are bailed out by crony socialism/capitalism (really the same).

Quigley says

If conservatives love a level playing field, why are they so opposed to the estate tax? Why do they constantly lobby government for preferential rules and treatment to give their business an edge over others? Why do they defend predatory pricing of drugs for Americans vs the rest of the world with "property rights!?"

Increasingly, I see that a conservative is the same thing as a feudal lord, jealously defending his position atop the lowly serfs and his right to abuse them.

Yeah, that's why aligning with a Libertarian stance makes more sense. True conservatives IMO were actually also liberals, i..e the bourgeoisie, which today would closest resemble Libertarians (with a somewhat lesser focus on private property).

Dan8267 says

It's comically hypocritical that indigenous posts a video proclaiming principles that he venomously opposes like individuality and a level playing field.

You don't have a clue about what my perspective is.

Heraclitusstudent says

- Freedom and Responsibility

- Individuality

These are keywords that sound good but in practice are used to justify the worse corporate abuses.

Example: let the bank give a liar loan to the poor idiot buying an overpriced shack at the top of the market and didn't read the mortgage documents.

Conservatives: yes that's the "individual" "responsibility" of the poor idiot.

It's all: let the big corporations do whatever they want, practice fraud, extortion, and con jobs with impunity, corrupt lawmakers, etc, etc...

Crony capitalism

Quigley says

If conservatives love a level playing field, why are they so opposed to the estate tax? Why do they constantly lobby government for preferential rules and treatment to give their business an edge over others? Why do they defend predatory pricing of drugs for Americans vs the rest of the world with "property rights!?"

Increasingly, I see that a conservative is the same thing as a feudal lord, jealously defending his position atop the lowly serfs and his right to abuse them.

Again Cronyism not free market.

Heraclitusstudent says

These are keywords that sound good but in practice are used to justify the worse corporate abuses.

When the individual speculator defaults on his loan and abandons the property, it shows lack of character and responsibility. When a bank does the exact same thing, it's a wise business decision and a right that no one should question.

Dan8267 says

When the individual speculator defaults on his loan and abandons the property, it shows lack of character and responsibility. When a bank does the exact same thing, it's a wise business decision and a right that no one should question.

Complete bullshit. Welfare is welfare.

dodgerfanjohn says

So to the chagrin of the modern racists like Marcus

Says the guy who thinks Trayvon Martin was not murdered.

I find it disingenuous but not surprising at all that modern racists use "I believe in judging individuals by the content of their character" as a BS line to justify and feel okay about themselves when they base their beliefs on generalizations about groups.

Quigley says

If conservatives love a level playing field, why are they so opposed to the estate tax? Why do they constantly lobby government for preferential rules and treatment to give their business an edge over others? Why do they defend predatory pricing of drugs for Americans vs the rest of the world with "property rights!?"

Increasingly, I see that a conservative is the same thing as a feudal lord, jealously defending his position atop the lowly serfs and his right to abuse them.

+
Very true.

Dan nailed it too. But it's only going to cause the idiots to dig in more deeply to hold on to their stupidity.

I visualize a young child with their fingers in their ears saying "I can't hear you! LALALALALALALNANANANANANANANANANANNA !!" (that's what indigenous is doing right now)

Mutts...

Why does anyone even bother to put this out? The war is over. America will never be what it was. Never!

This is just rabble-rousing. If you believe this you are in the minority and in a democracy where the 51% controls the 49, you are the loser. You would have already bailed.

Bigsby says

dodgerfanjohn says

So to the chagrin of the modern racists like Marcus, US society more or less has been a level playing field for all races for 50 years now. The only thing holding blacks back in US Society is their own cultural flaws and racism against others.

A level playing field over the last 50 years? Please tell me you're joking.

Not havig resided in the US that entire time, and not having grown up here, I have no idea why you'd even bother commenting. Presumably your knowledge on the matter comes from that bastion of unbiased reporting that liberal idiots love so much...the BBC.

And anyway, clearly you took my comments out of context.

humanity says

dodgerfanjohn says

So to the chagrin of the modern racists like Marcus

Says the guy who thinks Trayvon Martin was not murdered.

I find it disingenuous but not surprising at all that modern racists use "I believe in judging individuals by the content of their character" as a BS line to justify and feel okay about themselves when they base their beliefs on generalizations about groups.

You just described the opposite of racist belief.

You are one very confused dude(or chick)

indigenous says

It's all: let the big corporations do whatever they want, practice fraud, extortion, and con jobs with impunity, corrupt lawmakers, etc, etc...

Crony capitalism

You're exactly right. This is what "conservatives" are all about.

mell says

Ah but there is absolutely not problem with this as both bear the consequences. The debt-serfs will default and the bank will go bankrupt.. unless they are bailed out by crony socialism/capitalism (really the same).

You have to distinguish between the bank and the banksters:

The bank could go under. The banksters would have made huge bonuses for years and don't give a rat's ass about what happens to the bank.

Plus as you say, they get bailed out anyway.

Heraclitusstudent says

mell says

Ah but there is absolutely not problem with this as both bear the consequences. The debt-serfs will default and the bank will go bankrupt.. unless they are bailed out by crony socialism/capitalism (really the same).

You have to distinguish between the bank and the banksters:

The bank could go under. The banksters would have made huge bonuses for years and don't give a rat's ass about what happens to the bank.

Plus as you say, they get bailed out anyway.

Well, there will be always middle-men who make out by taking immediate cuts for forward promises on labor, but these businesses go under pretty soon and a well-educated/recession-experienced public would and should avoid those transactions anyways. The bailouts instead of handcuffs (for fraud) are the main problem and as long as the rule of law is not restored partisan politics are utterly meaningless and there are no good or bad guys, only bad guys. For me the main pillar of libertarianism/conservatism is the rule of law, which has been raped and pillaged by todays progressives by
1) ignoring laws
2) selectively (not) prosecuting
3) passing laws that IMO are unconstitutional (such as affirmative action, discrimination/harassment laws, hate crime and more)
That is not to say that prior administrations, conservative and democratic, didn't have their scandals, but this one certainly takes the cake. I'd very much like to participate in progressive ideas (such as legalizing all drugs), but not with shitting all over the constitution and existing laws and introducing thought-crime and the PC-police into our daily lives. It has come that far that most people do not dare to voice their opinions (not even softly) on social medias if it differs from the progressive mainstream due to fear of repercussions which could ruin their lives. Voltaire would certainly be ashamed of today's "progressivism".

indigenous says

BTW if you write another book I will just TLTR

You're allowed to post a 10 minute video, but he's not allowed to make a thoughtful response?
indigenous says

You don't have a clue about what my perspective is.

That's because you've been brainwashed and so your "perspective" is often muddled and contradictory due to the fact that you don't know what your talking about. Intelligent people with a message that they truly understand have no difficulty communicating it to others. Those people may agree or disagree, but they get the point.

When we don't understand your "perspective" you call us "mutts" and infer that we're too stupid to understand. We're plenty smart enough to understand thoughtful arguments.

dodgerfanjohn says

You just described the opposite of racist belief.

You are one very confused dude(or chick)

Riiiiiiight.

In my opinion you would be very hard pressed to find a white racist that doesn't believe that they judge individuals by the content of their character rather than the color of the skin. And of those racists that say this, many even really do sometimes or very often practice judging individuals on their character (and disregarding their race).

By your very weak definition of what it means to not be a racist you may even almost be right when you say "US society more or less has been a level playing field for all races for 50 years."

The problem is your definition is wrong. OF course everyone in 2014 is capable of jusdging people on far more important attributes than the color of their skin.

The thing is that usually we don't have a lot of information about the content of a persons character. And this information is actually fairly difficult to obtain.

George Zimmerman, who may even have had black friends in his past, had zero information about Trayvon Martins character, and yet he approached him aggressively with a gun, insisting that he comply with him. This was based on a judgement that was not based on the content of Trayvon Martin's character. I believe that he would not have done this had Trayvon been a similarly dressed 16 year old white kid in a hoody.

I'm not trying to rehash the argument, just trying to help you understand what a racist is.

Again, your requirement is far too weak, and is really just an excuse to let yourself off the hook for being a flaming racist.

dodgerfanjohn says

Not havig resided in the US that entire time, and not having grown up here, I have no idea why you'd even bother commenting. Presumably your knowledge on the matter comes from that bastion of unbiased reporting that liberal idiots love so much...the BBC.

And anyway, clearly you took my comments out of context.

Were you alive during the entirety of human existence? Have you lived in every place in every country on the planet all the time and at the same time? Obviously not. But let me guess, you are happy enough to comment on events that you did not see, were not alive for or have not directly experienced.
And in what way did I take your comment out of context? What you actually said was even more ludicrous as you then went on to entirely blame blacks for the issues they face (their cultural flaws and their racism according to you). Perhaps you'd care to explain what context I'm supposed to put that in.

Bigsby says

Were you alive during the entirety of human existence? Have you lived in every place in every country on the planet all the time and at the same time? Obviously not. But let me guess, you are happy enough to comment on events that you did not see, were not alive for or have not directly experienced.

Next time just say "Dodgerfanjohn, you are right. I am not from the US and don't understand fully the racial context and atmosphere of the US. Next time I won't open my limey mouth about it, just listen and observe".

humanity says

In my opinion you would be very hard pressed to find a white racist that doesn't believe that they judge individuals by the content of their character rather than the color of the skin. And of those racists that say this, many even really do sometimes or very often practice judging individuals on their character (and disregarding their race).

Good god you are dense.

dodgerfanjohn says

Bigsby says

Were you alive during the entirety of human existence? Have you lived in every place in every country on the planet all the time and at the same time? Obviously not. But let me guess, you are happy enough to comment on events that you did not see, were not alive for or have not directly experienced.

Next time just say "Dodgerfanjohn, you are right. I am not from the US and don't understand fully the racial context and atmosphere of the US. Next time I won't open my limey mouth about it, just listen and observe".

When I listen and observe, it isn't to someone as clearly ignorant of the facts as you.

Call it Crazy says

Once again, your true racism comes out. Go back and listen to the 911 tapes. Zimmerman at first didn't know what color he was BECAUSE he was wearing a hoodie...

Your racism and hatred of whites comes out loud and clear!!

You're the one that gets all defensive about this when I remind everyone of what's obvious. It's so amazing the length you go to to SUGGEST THAT I'M A RACIST for stating the obvious, that Trayon Martin was murdered, and very likely would not have been if he were white.

dodgerfanjohn says

Good god you are dense.

And yet you are the one that doesn't understand this:

humanity says

The problem is your definition is wrong. OF course everyone in 2014 is capable of judging people on far more important attributes than the color of their skin.

The thing is that usually we don't have a lot of information about the content of a persons character. And this information is actually fairly difficult to obtain.

humanity says

George Zimmerman, who may even have had black friends in his past, had zero information about Trayvon Martins character, and yet he approached him aggressively with a gun, insisting that he comply with him. This was based on a judgement that was not based on the content of Trayvon Martin's character.

It is mind-boggling that anyone can come out these days and still call the TM case murder. Call it excessive force, involuntary manslaughter from your point of view.. all fine. But you must be either delusional or have malintent to call an altercation where the person using deadly force was pinned to the ground and being pounded a (premeditated) murder. And it certainly had ZERO to do with racism, considering that earlier GZ protested a black man's beating by the cops. This is exactly the problem, GZ may be a bit of a whacko, but that doesn't turn a tragic altercation into a murder fueled by racism. And that shit is what everything these days turns into, no matter how far fetched the initial circumstances are, every discussion with self-proclaimed progressives turns either into a case of

1) racism/nazism (godwin's law)

2) genderism/mysogyny (vagina's law, also applicable to gays and transgenders)

3) classism (rich vs poor)

This behavior makes even the few legitimate cases drown in the sea of bullshit of all the fabricated cases. The fact that the GZ tapes were doctored by the media to fuel the outrage shows you how far this bs is being peddled, unnecessarily dividing a nation with fake bullshit made-up social non-issues.

Call it Crazy says

There are no words to describe how racist and biased you are...

NONE!!!

You forgot to say QED or something to that effect at the end of your proof of what a racist I am.

Why do facts bother you so much ?

George Zimmerman had no way of assessing the content of Trayvon Martin's (a teenager) character.