patrick.net

I moved this comment by @jazz music here, from the Robin Williams thread. I don't want that thread to degenerate into a flame war. Besides, the delusional mentality in the comment below fits better with the title of this thread:

jazz music says

Please know that you can find lots of statistics indicating how many thousands of lives have been saved since the advent of ACA.

You know darn well that they only called it Obama care because they want you to hate it even though a few years before that it was the only thing GOP would consider. It would be more fair to call it Obamacare if it was a single-payer plan. This is all old history that you know, and that some of us choose not to ignore.

I'm not saying that Affordable Care Act is in anyway optimal, but it is something that took the place of nothing for the majority of people who have neither salaried employment nor Medicare.

The tax monies that were allocated to affordable care were highly envied by corporations carving huge benefits for themselves, as non-accountable job creators, out of the working public.

ACA is certainly outrageous to businesses because this one time the public good took a priority over their bottom line. This example represents a horribly profound change in the direction of government, and of course powerful interests are invested in making sure that this never ever happens again, let alone become a trend.

Bear in mind that ACA all happened even though GOP was practicing scorched earth tactics.

Now we'll see with GOP controlling both houses whether they will be successful in denying affordable health care to our population.

I moved this comment here because it was a reply to the delusional comment by jazz music above:

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

jazz music says

but it is something that took the place of nothing for the majority of people who have neither salaried employment nor Medicare.

So, why is it anyone's business that they live when the marketplace has decided they are supposed to die?

Death is natural and an act of God.

ACA is a criminal attack on Freedom that defies everything that America is about.

jazz music says

You know darn well....

that this legislation was a rapacious, murderous capitulation empowering entrenched industry executives at the expense of Americans' blood and treasure.

@jazz music, it's bad enough that you cling to your disproved delusions, you don't need also to call everyone else liars.

Why Democrats Lost

And besides that......a lot of em suck

jazz music says

[Obamacare] was right wing legislation to begin with that Obama took on....

Wherever it started, he signed his name onto it, and called it Obamacare. Republicans held both houses of Congress and the White House for years without enacting this legislation, and when it came up for a vote, they voted against it. The rest of your comment made no sense, including your profanity and rhetorical questions not worth dignifying with answers. The bottom line remains, when Democrats held power, this legislation is what they imposed upon everyone, and since then they have been removed from power, yet they fail to recognize that this legislation caused that result.

Democrats have the raw number advantage.
They lost because they could not inspire their base to get up off their ass and vote.
There is nothing inspirational about the list in the thread title.

curious2 says

Why Democrats Lost

It's hard to get excited about voting for a party that have proven themselves do nothing placeholders.
Americans were promised democratic, egalitarian change by the democrats, but received only additional buggery by the wealthy elite masters. An underwhelming performance would be an improvement over the uninterrupted slide into penury that is The Obama Legacy.

The biggest thing that I worry about is that most Democrats still want to give it a couple of years to work without defining what works means. How about bringing health costs to 2009 level inflation adjusted? It's impossible now.

Obama, in thrall to the Dark Lord Summers and the Evil Elf Timmy Geithner (with He-Who-Shall-Not-be-Named Rubin standing behind the curtain) sold us down the river immediately on entering office, with the same enthusiasm as any Bush.

When Citizens United was affirmed by the corporate-fluffing Supremes,
Obama the Lesser should have delivered a speech along the lines of:
"This will not stand!
If this is the law, then We Will Change the Law and Preserve the Republic!
We The People rule this great land and not the parasitical moneyed elites."

As Brother Cornell says: "a republican in blackface"

I'm sure the commander-in chief and his banker friends have all of our best interests at heart.

From your linked article:

"Fifty-six percent of people are against the healthcare overhaul and 44 percent favor it... Sixty-one percent of Americans are against the mandate, the issue at the center of the Republicans' contention that the law is unconstitutional, while 39 percent favor it."

People oppose being forced to swallow the pile of manure, and they always have. The bill is ridiculous because of the outrageous markups that the legislation enables.

Hitler reacts to Democrat midterm losses

http://www.youtube.com/embed/YN6uMI6TCAw

This 2010 article remains true:

"Fifty-nine percent of voters say that the biggest problem with the health-care system is the cost: They want reform that will bring down the cost of care. For these voters, the notion that you need to spend an additional trillion dollars doesn't make sense. If the program is supposed to save money, why does it cost anything at all?

On top of that, most voters expect that passage of the congressional plan will increase the cost of care at the same time it drives up government spending. Only 17% now believe it will reduce the cost of care."

As most voters predicted, spending increased and costs have continued to increase faster than wages and CPI.

As the linked map shows, Republicans have become the dominant party. They have a 60-seat majority in the House, plus a majority in the Senate and on the Supreme Court, plus at least 31 Governors, plus majorities among state legislatures:

"Republicans now control state government outright in at least 24 states, one more than they did before the election. They control at least 66 of 99 state legislative chambers nationwide. And they cut the number of states with total Democratic control from 14 to seven — the lowest number since the Civil War."

Obamacare has given the Republicans a 10 point head start in every race, and the consequences have devastated the Democratic party. Independents oppose Obamacare by a margin of 3-1, but Democrats cannot even recognize that fact, let alone understand it. All Democrats can say is that everyone who doesn't drink the prescribed Obamacare Flavor-Aid is "right wing," thus handing the "right wing" a majority of voters and political power nationwide.

I don't know what to say about it anymore. I don't know how to talk with Democrats or Republicans. Both sects seem lost in their own counter-factual worldviews, and I don't know how to reach them. For example, most Republicans believe the earth was created less than 10,000 years ago as described in Genesis, while most Democrats insist that Obamacare should be (or even is actually) popular. I don't know what to say to people who reject evidence based decision making, and I would appreciate any honest suggestions.

curious2 says

I don't know what to say about it anymore. I don't know how to talk with Democrats or Republicans. Both sects seem lost in their own counter-factual worldviews, and I don't know how to reach them. For example, most Republicans believe the earth was created less than 10,000 years ago as described in Genesis, while most Democrats insist that Obamacare should be (or even is actually) popular. I don't know what to say to people who reject evidence based decision making, and I would appreciate any honest suggestions.

When someone sees everyone else as the problem--it's usually best to look in a mirror. Then the real problem shows itself.

tatupu70 says

When someone sees everyone else as the problem--it's usually best to look in a mirror. Then the real problem shows itself.

1) I don't see everyone else as the problem, only the two major parties.
2) I looked in the mirror, now what?
3) Are you happy with Tuesday's election results, or do you see a majority of voters as "the problem?"

curious2 says

2) I looked in the mirror, now what?

Maybe some introspection?

curious2 says

Are you happy with Tuesday's election results, or do you see a majority of voters as "the problem?"

That question is not a proper either/or. The answer to both is no.

tatupu70 says

curious2 says

Are you happy with Tuesday's election results, or do you see a majority of voters as "the problem?"

That question is not a proper either/or. The answer to both is no.

How can you claim to be unhappy with the election results without being unhappy with the voters?

Very hard to defend either party. Amazing that people try.

Republicans didn't win because people want Republican policies- what ever they are- but because the Democrats showed how poorly they implemented their form of government from the failed obamacare, IRS targeting, VA mess-ups, on again off again never ending war in Syria/Iraq etc.

Now it's the republicans turn to show us their poor version of government.

curious2 says

This 2010 article remains true:

"Fifty-nine percent of voters say that the biggest problem with the health-care system is the cost: They want reform that will bring down the cost of care. For these voters, the notion that you need to spend an additional trillion dollars doesn't make sense. If the program is supposed to save money, why does it cost anything at all?

On top of that, most voters expect that passage of the congressional plan will increase the cost of care at the same time it drives up government spending. Only 17% now believe it will reduce the cost of care."

As most voters predicted, spending increased and costs have continued to increase faster than wages and CPI.

There are so many ways on the left and right to "fix" healthcare from free market to providing coverage for those unable to pay to single payer.

What exactly is Obama care other than a way of getting people to put information into a government data base via a 1 billion dollar unsecure website so they can get worse coverage at a higher price or get fined if they don't buy it.

Certainly its not "affordable" not "health care" but has "Obama" written all over it.

Who ever invented it had no idea what they were doing-blame everyone for it.

Blame Obama & democrats for passing it, blame the Supreme court for inventing legal fiction that it is a tax, blame republicans for not repealing it

SoftShell says

Slate is a patently biased source.

try again.

Facts have a liberal bias too.

I think the developmentally delayed Fox viewers AND the smug pricks who think the smug prick Maddow is the Second Coming can both understand this simple chart.

Note: "The projections include impacts from the Affordable Care Act."

We will always have health care inflation as long as we, as the public, continue to want the latest technology and innovation in medical devices, pharmaceuticals and advanced procedures. You can only squeeze so much from a rock as it pertains to the payer infrastructure, but I believe Obamacare (or least the components from the Republican Chafee bill in 1993) is a good step in the right direction. I agree that Fox News and the right wing media has dumbed down the public into thinking Obamacare is socialized medicine...it's sad.

debyne says

I agree that Fox News and the right wing media has dumbed down the public into thinking Obamacare is socialized medicine...it's sad.

The only brainwashing dumbing down of dishonesty, is the Democrats trying to claim they lost because the 2/3rds of the disgusted voters didn't show up to vote, because they are all FOX viewers.

And again...

If that IS the case, how about showing them a little more respect, or do you plan getting them to vote in 2016 by calling them idiots and misinformed?

At least the Republicans did soul searching in '08 and after '12.

Stay scrong Liberals, stay scrong!

CBO is projecting a $21.5T economy in 2022

$5T of that is 23%.

This rise from the current 16%+ is to be expected; the 80M baby boomers are age 50 to 68 now and will be 58 to 76 in 2022.

Hello health care boom!

Bellingham Bill says

CBO is projecting a $21.5T economy in 2022

And in every board room in America, the topic of meetings, is how much of that share can they get. By cutting hours, automating production, and synthesizing materials. You guys better get to investing in those companies, your jobs just aren't going to dissolve themselves.

debyne says

We will always have health care inflation as long as we, as the public, continue to want the latest technology and innovation in medical devices, pharmaceuticals and advanced procedures.

In all other sectors, advancing technology produces better results at lower cost. The issue comes down to who defines "better results:" the medical industrial complex is designed to maximize revenue, so better results from that POV means more revenue. Better results for people, including better value for money, would be possible if even one of the two major parties prioritized that. Neither does.

Peter P says

Obamacare eliminates pre-existing conditions. This alone is worthwhile.

Absoutely not! That issue along with getting insurance for the uninsured could have been dealt with without creating a billion dollar web site and massive bureacracy

smaulgld says

Peter P says

Obamacare eliminates pre-existing conditions. This alone is worthwhile.

Absoutely not! That issue along with getting insurance for the uninsured could have been dealt with without creating a billion dollar web site and massive bureacracy

You cannot eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions without covering everybody. Otherwise, only those with pre-existing conditions will buy insurances.

Alas, the whole concept of healthcare insurance is ridiculous. Everybody needs some medical care.

Can I buy sunshine insurance in California?

Peter P says

Alas, the whole concept of healthcare insurance is ridiculous. Everybody needs some medical care.

That is the argument for single payer not for obama care

Peter P says

You cannot eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions without covering everybody. Otherwise, only those with pre-existing conditions will buy insurances.

Basically that is the loop hole in Obama care. Many people will forego the insurance and pay the fine if its cheaper and then if they get sick or need expensive treatment, sign up and not be denied for a pre existing condition- the law was not well thought out.
Indeed the supreme court had to save the "law" by calling it a "tax"

smaulgld says

Peter P says

Alas, the whole concept of healthcare insurance is ridiculous. Everybody needs some medical care.

That is the argument for single payer not for obama care

Obamacare is not ideal but it is one step closer to a better system.

smaulgld says

Peter P says

You cannot eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions without covering everybody. Otherwise, only those with pre-existing conditions will buy insurances.

Basically that is the loop hole in Obama care. Many people will forego the insurance and pay the fine if its cheaper and then if they get sick or need expensive treatment, sign up and not be denied for a pre existing condition- the law was not well thought out.

Indeed the supreme court had to save the "law" by calling it a "tax"

Hopefully more people will see the light and strive for a single-payer system.

Peter P says

Hopefully more people will see the light and strive for a single-payer system.

Because the government so painfully botched this version of an attempt of health insurance, the appetite for another comprehensive try will be limited

smaulgld says

Because the government so painfully botched this version of an attempt of health insurance, the appetite for another comprehensive try will be limited

I don't know, I thought any enterprising conservative would balk at the notion of tying healthcare to employment.

Universal healthcare is simply another form of national defense.

Peter P says

You cannot eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions without covering everybody.

Democrats parrot insurers' "adverse selection" argument in isolation, illustrating the difference between "the truth" and "the whole truth;" in reality, propitious selection and subsidies can outweigh adverse selection. The insurance industry evolved over centuries without mandates. No other country on earth levies a tax/penalty on ordinary individuals for not buying insurance; the nearest parallel might be Australia, where persons with exceptionally high incomes incur a 1% surcharge (less than half the Obamacare penalty) for not buying. The individual mandate was unnecessary from a public perspective but it gave unprecedented power to the politicians and lobbyists who wrote it on behalf of their corporate sponsors.

Peter P says

Universal healthcare is simply another form of national defense.

Neither major party sees it that way. As part of Obamacare and "stimulus," the federal government bought flu vaccines but refused to give them to actual people. Instead, the administration gave the vaccines to corporate sponsors to sell at a profit, and the providers charged more than the market would bear, so more than 70 million vaccines expired unused while more than 10,000 Americans died of H1N1 and hundreds of thousands were hospitalized enriching the Chicago-based AHA. "Thanks, Obamacare!" By far the biggest beneficiaries of that legislation have been the revenue recipients and the Republican party.