patrick.net

Honestly, when I saw 'CIA' and 'Frozen' in the same sentence I immediately thought of the Culinary Institute of America. Power of association.

Strategist says

The CIA does not torture terrorists for pleasure you nitwits. They torture these assholes to extract critical information that can save innocent lives. Including your worthless asses.

Bullshit. Torture somebody long enough, and they'll tell you they're the illegitimate bastard son of Stalin and Ma Barker and rode a broom to the moon last night at the Black Sabbath.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

The CIA does not torture terrorists for pleasure you nitwits. They torture these assholes to extract critical information that can save innocent lives. Including your worthless asses.

Bullshit. Torture somebody long enough, and they'll tell you they're the illegitimate bastard son of Stalin and Ma Barker and rode a broom to the moon last night at the Black Sabbath.

They'll also tell you the truth. That's all we want.

Strategist says

They'll also tell you the truth. That's all we want.

This is not always true though. People will say anything to make it stop. Sometimes they tell the truth. Sometimes not.

Peter P says

Strategist says

They'll also tell you the truth. That's all we want.

This is not always true though. People will say anything to make it stop. Sometimes they tell the truth. Sometimes not.

So sometimes we will save innocent lives, and sometimes we will not.
It's still worth it. I'm sorry, but I have no compassion towards these animals.

Strategist says

I'm sorry, but I have no compassion towards these animals.

Accused animals. Most are not guilty of anything in a court of law because they've never been tried.

sbh says

Strategist says

It's still worth it. I'm sorry, but I have no compassion towards these animals.

While they're torturing our guys and gals I hope you take comfort in the "truth" it earned.

These animals will torture our guys and gals regardless of what we do, because they torture innocent people for the sake of torturing. We should only torture terrorists to save innocent lives.
You guys are being so short sighted, its putting all of us in danger. The ultimate goal should be to get rid of these wackos, not allow them to thrive.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

I'm sorry, but I have no compassion towards these animals.

Accused animals. Most are not guilty of anything in a court of law because they've never been tried.

Most will be found innocent because our justice system is fucked up. The lawyers would be the only ones to benefit. Let the CIA and the military decide terrorism cases. Our justice system could not even find OJ guilty. Lets not worry about these terrorists who want to hurt us. Lets worry about us for a change.

Holy shit, Strategist.

For others, read Tom Friedman's column, if you can take really bad writing and notice the timing of the content. I'm too disgusted to bother with "Porn stache" or any other remark..

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/opinion/thomas-friedman-were-always-still-americans.html

sbh says

Strategist, you're presuming torture has something to do with it. In the end you're saying we should torture because they torture. I don't admire your values. When you say "we should torture to save innocent lives" and we torture people who have no information that bears on that end, we have tortured in no furtherance of that end and have ultimately reduced the number of "innocents" we would presume to protect. Anyone who advocates torture is no longer innocent. You have exempted yourself from the quality you claim is the basis for your advocacy of a heinous act.

It's this simple: go to a CIA rendition site and torture someone. Get their fluids all over your hands and into your pores. Smell their fear and vomit and wear it for several hours while listening to their screams. Then come back here and extoll your innocence.

You guys just don't get it. We can all agree ISIS is the mother of all terrorist organizations, right? ISIS is led by Al Baghdadi, a terrorist who was an American prisoner in Iraq. We let him go and look what happened? Mass slaughter, rape, slaves, and beheading children. If Al Baghdadi was treated my way, he would have given us all the information we needed, and then we would have shot him. But he was treated your way. Do you guys realize all of you who supported treating him like a human being are responsible for the slaughter that followed? Yes, everyone of you. Your way does not work. My way saves innocent lives.

sbh says

Strategist says

If Al Baghdadi was treated my way, he would have given us all the information we needed

Nope. That's a presumption laden delusion. There could have been others ready to take over in his absence that he didn't even know about. You're fooling yourself in an effort to justify your outrage.

Nope. this guy is highly effective. Some people just cannot be replaced. e.g.. Steve Jobs, Hitler, Al Baghdadi, Bin Laden.

sbh says

Strategist says

and then we would have shot him

Probably not on that as well. We'd have spent millions adjudicating and incarcerating him. And the rape and beheading and the terror would have continued apace.

Then that would not have been my way.

sbh says

Strategist says

But he was treated your way.

You know this? I don't. Enlighten me. What did we do to him that was per my prescription, a prescription I have never detailed.

He was treated nicely, wasn't he? That is your way, being nice.
"Nice guys finish last"

sbh says

Strategist says

Do you guys realize all of you who supported treating him like a human being are responsible for the slaughter that followed?

Now you sound like CaptainShitForBrains.

He is right at times, you know.

sbh says

Strategist says

My way saves innocent lives.

No, you're just saying that. How many lives has your way saved?

None. Because my way is not used. Your way caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, and mass destruction.

CIA is ran by assholes, no better than the terrorists they tortured.

Think about it folks, we have secret prisons that can imprison anyone with no trial, no rights, and torture that person.

As far as they told us, it's only terrorists, what frightens me is when they'll start jailing average Americans without telling us. That's where Assange and Snowden would have ended up, and just about anyone who were significant enough.

Strategist says

Most will be found innocent because our justice system is fucked up. The lawyers would be the only ones to benefit. Let the CIA and the military decide terrorism cases. Our justice system could not even find OJ guilty. Lets not worry about these terrorists who want to hurt us. Lets worry about us for a change.

You truly don't deserve american citizenship. There are plenty of countries that have intelligence and the military run the justice system. Move to one and stop dishonouring all the people who fought for what america really stands throughout our history.

Bigsby says

These comparisons to the Nazis are just ridiculous.

Torturing people to death is the worst thing a person can possibly do. The comparison is apt. Both the Nazis and the CIA have no respect for human life and take a sadistic pleasure in torturing others. Same evil.

thunderlips11 says

Many of them literally did.

Yes, the U.S. took many Nazis to fight the Cold War. More importantly, they took the Nazi philosophy of the end justifies the means and the enemy is subhuman.

Bigsby says

it belittles what the Nazis actually did to throw around such stupid comparisons.

You do realize that the Nazis are most well known for genocide, something that the United States has committed dozens of times.

Strategist says

The CIA does not torture terrorists for pleasure you nitwits. They torture these assholes to extract critical information that can save innocent lives.

And the Nazis tortured the Jews to protect the Aryan race. Same difference. The bad guys will always justify their actions.

Oh, and by the way, torture has made us LESS safe. It's dumb ass policies like that and the illegal wars that lead to the rise of ISIS. We'd be a lot safer if Al Gore, who won the election, had become president instead of that idiot Bush.

Strategist says

So sometimes we will save innocent lives, and sometimes we will not.

It's still worth it

And when the children and grandchildren of those tortured return the favor by bombing and killing Americans, you will have cost more lives than you allegedly had saved. There are consequences to actions. Imagine what YOU would do if your children were tortured in the name of protecting Iran. Then realize that other people would do the same when their families are tortured by our country.

Just remember, countries who do not live by International law and the Geneva Convention are not protected by those things either. Anyone who supports torturing our enemies tacitly supports letting our enemies torture OUR soldiers when they are captured. It's tit for tat. The only way to protect our soldiers from atrocities is to not commit those atrocities ourselves.

No nation will hold back torturing captured soldiers from a nation that routinely tortures its captives. If we waterboard prisoners, our soldiers will be waterboarded as well. So those who advocate torture do not support our troops; they endanger our troops.

Dan8267 says

These comparisons to the Nazis are just ridiculous.

Torturing people to death is the worst thing a person can possibly do. The comparison is apt. Both the Nazis and the CIA have no respect for human life and take a sadistic pleasure in torturing others. Same evil.

The comparison isn't apt. The Nazis systematically murdered millions of innocents.

What the CIA did was abhorrent. It doesn't require some bullshit comparison to the Nazis. You can make your point without resorting to such histrionics.

Dan8267 says

Bigsby says

it belittles what the Nazis actually did to throw around such stupid comparisons.

You do realize that the Nazis are most well known for genocide, something that the United States has committed dozens of times.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. And dozens of times? Perhaps you'd care to expand upon what you consider genocide.

Bigsby says

The comparison isn't apt. The Nazis systematically murdered millions of innocents.

The United States murdered millions of innocent Native Americans, or did you forget about that? Our history is as bad as the Nazis.

So, for the CIA to take on philosophy the Nazi's embraced that certain people are subhuman and thus can be tortured without remorse makes the comparison valid. They are of the same nature as the Nazis.

Bigsby says

And dozens of times?

Yes, dozens of times. Millions of Native Americans across dozens of nations. To lump all Native Americans as one people makes as much sense as lumping all Europeans of 200 years ago as one people. So yes, dozens.

Dan8267 says

Bigsby says

And dozens of times?

Yes, dozens of times. Millions of Native Americans across dozens of nations. To lump all Native Americans as one people makes as much sense as lumping all Europeans of 200 years ago as one people. So yes, dozens.

Very convenient. And absolutely nothing to do with what the CIA did.

Dan8267 says

The United States murdered millions of innocent Native Americans, or did you forget about that? Our history is as bad as the Nazis.

No, I didn't forget about that. What has that got to do with your comparison of the CIA and Nazis? And I think a great many people would disagree with your assertion that your history is as bad as the Nazis.

Bigsby says

Very convenient. And absolutely nothing to do with what the CIA did.

Genocide is practice as the result of classifying people as subhuman. That you don't see the connection is a flaw in your vision.

Dan8267 says

Bigsby says

Very convenient. And absolutely nothing to do with what the CIA did.

Genocide is practice as the result of classifying people as subhuman. That you don't see the connection is a flaw in your vision.

No, it's a flaw in your stupidly broad brush stroke of a comparison.

Bigsby says

No, it's a flaw in your stupidly broad brush stroke of a comparison.

I don't intent to convince you. That would be impossible, and quite frankly I don't give a damn what you think.

But I will state for the record that any decent person who reads this article on the CIA torture would conclude that everyone involved should face Nuremberg-style trials, and that is the only way America will ever be able to wipe its hands clean of these atrocities.

From Friedman's article:
I greatly respect how Senator John McCain put it: “I understand the reasons that governed the decision to resort to these interrogation methods, and I know that those who approved them and those who used them were dedicated to securing justice for the victims of terrorist attacks and to protecting Americans from further harm. ... But I dispute wholeheartedly that it was right for them to use these methods, which this report makes clear were neither in the best interests of justice nor our security nor the ideals we have sacrificed so much blood and treasure to defend.” Even in the worst of times, “we are always Americans, and different, stronger, and better than those who would destroy us.”

Dan8267 says

But I will state for the record that any decent person who reads this article on the CIA torture would conclude that everyone involved should face Nuremberg-style trials, and that is the only way America will ever be able to wipe its hands clean of these atrocities.

Fine. Prosecute them, but don't peddle stupid lines about genocide and Nazism. Deal with the behaviour of a presumably relatively small group of people and the institution that allowed it/down played it/covered it up.

FortWayne says

CIA is ran by assholes, no better than the terrorists they tortured.

This is a gift of the Nazis, and I'm not exaggerating to make a point.

The CIA used torture in Vietnam, and all over South America. As did the graduates of the "School of the Americas" which didn't exist to teach Latin Americans the finer points of Spanish Grammar.

Where did the sudden interest in torture come from? Gehlen and others. All the escaped Nazi rats who fled to the Allies to avoid real justice at the hands of the enraged Russians. All the intel Nazis were snapped up by the OSS, later CIA.

Dan8267 says

Torturing people to death is the worst thing a person can possibly do. The comparison is apt. Both the Nazis and the CIA have no respect for human life and take a sadistic pleasure in torturing others. Same evil.

There are many stories about CIA led teams in South America. In several incidences priests and nuns were tortured, and at least one distinctly remembers hearing the voice of "Alejandro" who spoke American-accented Spanish and English. "Alejandro" said the police made a mistake by kidnapping her, but not by torturing here. He was apparently smart enough to realize that she was the wrong person to torture, not that it was wrong to torture a person.

It already came out from Guatemalan Archives that not only was the CIA there, but that they exceeded their boundaries of actions and financing.

Sister Dianna of the Ursuline Order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianna_Ortiz

Can we send the CIA over to the NAR Headquarters?

Two other quick points:

Mubarak, Assad, and others helped the CIA torture. The CIA sent them there with 100% full knowledge of what would happen.

Also, numerous cases of "mistaken identity", including people who froze to death. Turns out they got the wrong guys in many circumstances.

CIA Agents also got "Cash" rewards, including ones that sent the innocents by mistake.

But make no mistake: there’s still an extraordinary amount to take away from this report. If there is one tragic story, out of the many, that is emblematic of the CIA program, as its supporters defend it in the days, it’s that of Gul Ruhman. It may be two stories – it’s hard to know, so much has been redacted and the atrocities are so countless – but at least one Gul Ruhman we know was tortured at the notorious CIA black site known as the Salt Pit, chained to the floor and frozen to death. The CIA’s inspector general referred this person’s case to CIA leadership for discipline, but was overruled. Four months after the incident, the officer who gave the order that led to Rahman’s death was recommended for a $2,500 “cash reward” for his “consistently superior work”.

Footnote 32 explains why a dead prisoner ended up in CIA custody in the first place: “Gul Ruhman, another case of mistaken identity.”

Now, let's talk about Pussy Riot getting a few months in jail for causing a ruckus in a Church, real evil.

Perhaps they should have locked these folks in a cell with Martha Raddatz. I'd cop to anything under those circumstances.

thunderlips11 says

The CIA used torture in Vietnam, and all over South America. As did the graduates of the "School of the Americas" which didn't exist to teach Latin Americans the finer points of Spanish Grammar.

No one does Mad Dog better than the USA. The New World presented a huge opportunity for those with the killer gene to express their genetic endowment, as the Native Americans came to learn all too well. If you don't use it, you lose it, and so outlets for murder and savagery are necessary.

Strategist says

We can all agree ISIS is the mother of all terrorist organizations, right?

It's not.

ISIS is currently being wiped from the desert. They were never an existential threat to the United States, and never will be.

Abu Nidal was worse, but it's academic, because the Bolsheviks were worse, and the Mexican cartels are worse than all of them. I don't see the CIA torturing Mexican cartel members right now.

It's always "so-and-so is the worst - an unprecedented villain - and deserves no mercy" - and has been so for thousands of years. Whether it's the Judean People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea, or the Carthaginians, the struggle against the newest, most-awful ever enemy gives people the excuse to hack, torture, dismember, freeze, starve and castrate until they sink below the enemy they've demonized.

A good example is the aftermath of the Battle of Culloden in 1745. The English convinced themselves of the moral inferiority of the unprecedentedly vicious Jacobite supporters of Charles Stuart. How the English behaved after the victory has left a stain on the nation that persists - it is not regarded as an honorable victory. Hunting down the wounded for days is really not something to be proud of.

Be wary whenever you hear about the newest villain's rape rooms and beheading lust. Think about the motives of who is feeding you such stories, and the human tendency to exaggerate and conceive of the end times.