patrick.net
An Antidote to Corporate Media
1,260,460 comments by 15,051 users - mell, socal2, stereotomy, WookieMan online now
invite response« First « Previous Comments 264 - 303 of 2,893 Next » Last » Search these comments
Y
2015 Apr 6, 11:30am
Fail.
By definition women would have to give the doctor permission to get probed prior to abortion. It's the woman's choice to follow the law, or walk.
Rape is penetration without permission.
Christians tried to get a law passed that required women to be raped -- yes, raped by the legal definition -- by their doctor before getting an abortion.
Wrong state, idiot. The bill that was being discussed was one from Iowa, a Jesus-land state, which is why the Republican Party has their main presidential caucus there.
But hey, when did American Christians ever learn geography anyway?
FFS - as if that matters.
ANY State bill that tries to restrict abortion to match "civilized" standards in Europe is fought tooth and nail by American Liberals and Liberals start hitting the fainting couches fearing that the Taliban are just around the corner.
I've said it before, but once Liberals bother to get educated on the science and ethics of human development, we will look back at abortion as abhorrent as the Democrat's historical support for slavery, Jim Crow and Eugenics.
Not too late to get on the right side of history Dan. Just so sad seeing so many American Liberals still making the destruction of unborn babies the center of their political goals. Pretty fucking ghoulish if you ask me.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 11:57am
And there is no reason why we should tolerate Christianity or any other religion.
Exhibit A - showing the "tolerance" of the American Left.
Why should I tolerate ignorance and stupidity? Some things should not be tolerated.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 12:01pm
Which religion is a real threat to us, Dan?
The religion of Climate Change, if you doubt me insult Dan's religion and see what happens.
A perfect example of why religion and irrationality should not be tolerated. Man-made climate change has been scientifically proven. To deny that at this point is to be the village idiot. Of course such idiots will never be convinced of their fallacy, but they still influence our government policies and inhibit our ability to limit and prepare for the effects of climate change. And the result of this irrationality can already be seen in Miami which is experiencing flooding due to rising sea-levels and will be underwater within 20 years unless drastic actions are taken. Miami has to bear the financial cost of saving itself from sea-level rises caused by polluting coal fire plants in other states and in China precisely because of climate changing denier idiots like indigenous. They have a very real, negative effect on America.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 12:06pm
Fail.
By definition women would have to give the doctor permission to get probed prior to abortion. It's the woman's choice to follow the law, or walk.
Rape is penetration without permission.
EPIC FAIL. You're false analysis was debunked even before you wrote it.
he entire purpose of the bill requiring women to get raped before getting an abortion was to make the process so humiliating and painful that effectively no woman would dare attempt to do it. Imagine if you had to be anally raped before you could cast a vote in an election. Wouldn't that infringe on your right to vote?
Want another example? Image having to "consent" to being anally raped before being allowed to participate in any religious ceremony: baptism, mass, confirmation, marriage, or Christian burial. Still not a violation?
I hate to see Shrek in a jury on a rape case given his concept of "consent". I can see his reasoning right now. The alleged victim consented to have sex because she willingly chose to be penetrated rather than beaten or killed.
A perfect example of why religion and irrationality should not be tolerated. Man-made climate change has been scientifically proven.
One does not need to be a Jesus-freak to question Liberal's paranoia and religion of climate change.
What HAS NOT been proven is the severity of the impact of climate change and if Man can even stop it.
The draconian carbon cuts the Chicken Little's have proposed are often a worse prescription to humanity than the disease.........particularly for the poor and 3rd world who will be forced to keep shivering in the dark and eating dirt. But Dan likes living at or below sea-level in Florida, so the world's poor will be made to suffer to subsidize Dan's quality of life living near the ocean.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 12:11pm
ANY State bill that tries to restrict abortion to match "civilized" standards in Europe is fought tooth and nail by American Liberals and Liberals start hitting the fainting couches fearing that the Taliban are just around the corner.
What state in Europe requires that women be raped? And how is that a good thing?
I've said it before, but once Liberals bother to get educated on the science and ethics of human development, we will look back at abortion as abhorrent as the Democrat's historical support for slavery, Jim Crow and Eugenics.
The entire issue of abortion is already handled in this classic thread, The abortion question answered. Turns out, both sides were wrong.
First-trimester abortions are not even remotely the same thing as third-trimester abortions. To equate the two is utterly ridiculous and indicates a completely lack of understanding of even basic biology. Again, this is exactly something that Christianity fucks up in our society. Its false belief in a human soul negatively affects policies and causes unnecessary suffering and violations of human rights.
First-trimester abortions are not even remotely the same thing as third-trimester abortions.
When my son was 2 months old, he was not even remotely close cognitively as his 3 year old sister. Yet he had just as much legal rights to life and liberty as my older daughter. In fact, my daughter was born nearly 2 months premature and survived and has thrived due to the miracles of modern medicine at the NICU - I suppose she could have been legally destroyed a day before she was born if we the parents simply "chose" that is what we wanted.
What state in Europe requires that women be raped? And how is that a good thing?
Really can't take loons like you seriously that conflate "rape" with sonograms and totally discount the penetration (rape?) required to dismember and suck out viable fetuses through the abortion process.
God forbid people become educated on the "clump of cells" they are choosing to destroy through abortion. Education = rape! The sonogram manufacturers are major rapists because they haven't invented a better sonogram procedure for 1st trimester.
"Ultrasound Images Suggest A Scary Effect Of Smoking On Unborn Babies"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/24/smoking-while-pregnant-_n_6930678.html
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 12:28pm
When my son was 2 months old, he was not even remotely close cognitively as his 3 year old sister. Yet he had just as much legal rights to life and liberty as my older daughter.
Precisely because he had a brain, which you would know is what counts if you actually read the thread I referenced above. A fertilized egg does not have a brain. Nor does a zygote.
In fact, my daughter was born nearly 2 months premature and survived and has thrived due to the miracles of modern medicine at the NICU - I suppose she could have been legally destroyed a day before she was born if we the parents simply "chose" that is what we wanted.
Nope. Roe v. Wade doesn't say that. RvW protects the right of a woman to have an abortion during the first trimester, not the last. Once again you demonstrate your ignorance.
You could dispel that ignorance by reading and comprehending the thread I referenced above.
The entire issue of abortion is already handled in this classic thread, The abortion question answered. Turns out, both sides were wrong.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 12:36pm
Really can't take loons like you seriously that conflate "rape" with sonograms and totally discount the penetration (rape?) required to dismember and suck out viable fetuses through the abortion process.
You mean loons like the FBI and the Department of Justice? They define rape as the
Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.
Again, you are just demonstrating your ignorance. A trans-vaginal ultrasound most certainly meets this definition. Given that normal ultrasounds are more than adequate to show images of a fetus, the sole purpose of a trans-vaginal, i.e. sticking the probe inside the vagina, most certainly was to rape the woman and thus deter her from having an abortion.
Now just imagine how the women who got pregnant from rape must have felt to be told they had to be raped again or bear the rapist's baby. That's just plain sick and despicable.
And that's Christianity's influence on our society. That's why Christianity is a far greater threat to America than Islam even though Islam is worse world-wide. Our human rights aren't being threatened by Sharia Law, but by the Ten Commandments and Christian dogma.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 12:40pm
By the way, if you care about stopping abortion so much, why don't you protest pollution? Pollution causes more miscarriages, i.e. abortions against the mother's will, than women seeking abortions. And when pollution doesn't cause the death of the fetus, it leaves it physically and often mentally impaired.
Pollution kills far more children than abortion doctors. See previous posts on this issue for details and references.
Y
2015 Apr 6, 1:18pm
COLOSSAL FAIL.
Rape: Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration perpetrated against a person without that person's consent.
Regardless of the purpose of the bill, probing with consent does not constitute rape.
The doctor cannot probe without the consent of the victim / girlfriend / bride.
It may be a bad bill. It may help to restrict abortions via humiliation. But it does not meet the definition of Rape.
Your insistence on this is just another self-delusional redefinition of the english language for self-gratification.
Something libbys are becoming famous for...
Fail.
By definition women would have to give the doctor permission to get probed prior to abortion. It's the woman's choice to follow the law, or walk.
Rape is penetration without permission.EPIC FAIL. You're false analysis was debunked even before you wrote it.
he entire purpose of the bill requiring women to get raped before getting an abortion was to make the process so humiliating and painful that effectively no woman would dare attempt to do it. Imagine if you had to be anally raped before you could cast a vote in an election. Wouldn't that infringe on your right to vote?
No, since your first one did not hold water...
Want another example?
Nope. Roe v. Wade doesn't say that. RvW protects the right of a woman to have an abortion during the first trimester, not the last. Once again you demonstrate your ignorance.
Yet all these States in America allow for abortion on demand in the 3rd Trimester.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/18/us/politics/abortion-restrictions.html
Again, you are just demonstrating your ignorance. A trans-vaginal ultrasound most certainly meets this definition.
Therefore so does inserting forceps and vacuum hoses into a vagina to perform the abortion. How the hell do you think MOST abortions are performed?
Why do Libs like you support raping women and destroying human babies at the same time. See how that logic works?
Precisely because he had a brain, which you would know is what counts if you actually read the thread I referenced above. A fertilized egg does not have a brain. Nor does a zygote.
The brain of a 2 month old is not fully developed or comparable to adult brains. Just as a 3 month old fetus' brain and a 9 month fetus' brain are different.
But I suppose it is easier for your conscience to just think of this caveman practice of abortion as removing a "lump of cells" and that having moral qualms about abortion equals raping women.
Y
2015 Apr 6, 1:28pm
There. I corrected it for you...
Why do
LibsLibbys like you support raping women and destroying human babies at the same time. See how that logic works?
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 1:41pm
Regardless of the purpose of the bill, probing with consent does not constitute rape.
And forcing a woman to "consent" or not have an abortion is not consent either. Consent, by definition, must be freely given without coercion.
You know this and choose to lie, which is why you ignored the response...
Dan8267 says
Want another example? Image having to "consent" to being anally raped before being allowed to participate in any religious ceremony: baptism, mass, confirmation, marriage, or Christian burial. Still not a violation?
I hate to see Shrek in a jury on a rape case given his concept of "consent". I can see his reasoning right now. The alleged victim consented to have sex because she willingly chose to be penetrated rather than beaten or killed.
No, since your first one did not hold water...
You're not even being coherent here.
Consent, by definition, must be freely given without coercion.
And consent of the baby being torn apart in 2nd and 3rd trimester? Oh - forgot, just a clump of cells. No need to even consider THAT part of the equation. Out of site, out of mind.
Lets get back to talking about sonogram rapists!
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 2:05pm
Yet all these States in America allow for abortion on demand in the 3rd Trimester.
Roe v Wade leaves the states to decide abortion policy during the second trimester and partially during the second.
Most pro-choice people do not support third trimester abortions unless the mother's life is in danger. And damn few abortions are done in the third trimester and they are almost always due to the mother's life being in danger.
From the Center for Disease Control
The majority of abortions in 2011 took place early in gestation. In 2011, most abortions (91.4%) were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.3%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.4%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation.
That's less than 1.4% done after the 21st week, which is still in the middle of the second trimester. The third trimester begins at week 28.
Therefore so does inserting forceps and vacuum hoses into a vagina to perform the abortion. How the hell do you think MOST abortions are performed?
Most abortions are performed chemically, such as by using the RU-486 pill.
However, this is irrelevant. A woman can give consent to a medical operation without wanting or consenting to a procedure that has no medical purpose and exists only to dehumanize and humiliate her, which is exactly what the rape ultrasounds were about.
Why do Libs like you support raping women and destroying human babies at the same time. See how that logic works?
Your "logic" doesn't work and it's nothing more than poisoning the well. However, you are demonstrating why religion, including Christianity, is a bad influence on our society. It prevents us from having adult conversations on morality, something our society sorely needs to do.
And by the way, being pro-life is completely consistent with liberal philosophy and there are plenty of pro-life liberals. The question comes down to what point does the offspring become a person, which is essentially asking what constitutes a person. That question was answered in detail in the thread The abortion question answered. Turns out, both sides were wrong.
The brain of a 2 month old is not fully developed or comparable to adult brains. Just as a 3 month old fetus' brain and a 9 month fetus' brain are different.
I have no problem with the idea that a 1-year-old is more sentient than a new born and therefore more of a person. The fact is that personhood doesn't happen in an instant. Rather, it slowly increases. Again, this was handled in the thread The abortion question answered. Turns out, both sides were wrong. You should really read that thread. And read it to understand rather than get pissed off.
But I suppose it is easier for your conscience to just think of this caveman practice of abortion as removing a "lump of cells" and that having moral qualms about abortion equals raping women.
But I suppose it is easier for your conscience to just think of this caveman practice of abortion as removing a "lump of cells" and that having moral qualms about abortion equals raping women.
What the fuck are you even talking about here? No woman ever said that having an abortion was like getting raped. Women have said that being forced to undergo trans-vaginal ultrasounds to get an abortion would feel like rape.
I never said anything remotely like "having moral qualms about abortions equals raping women". I said actually raping women, by the definition given by the Department of Justice, equals raping women. That's a fucking truism. Are your reading comprehension skills really that low?
Most abortions are performed chemically, such as by using the RU-486 pill.
Wrong. Lots of "rape penetration tools" with the most common 1st Trimester abortion technique. This also requires vaginal sonograms to know where the unborn baby is located in the uterus to accurately scrape and suck it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilation_and_curettage Dan8267 says
Your "logic" doesn't work and it's nothing more than poisoning the well. However, you are demonstrating why religion, including Christianity, is a bad influence on our society. It prevents us from having adult conversations on morality, something our society sorely needs to do.
Ha! So rich hearing Dan complaining about "poisoning the well" when he accuses pro-life people wanting to rape women. You are a joke. You have to know that - right?
To tie islam and abortion issues together, perhaps women who commit abortions should be sold on the exchange to muslim shieks...
Patrick
2015 Apr 6, 5:31pm
When the IRA was blowing up buses and public places all over the UK and Eire in the 1980s, along with ETA (Basque Independence Terrorists) how come nobody blamed Catholicism?
that one is easy. the answer is that christianity does not encourage murder. jesus robbed, enslaved, raped, murdered no one at all. the example of the religion's founder means a lot. re-read the original post.
the irish conflict is purely political, about invaders and their landlord descendants vs native inhabitants. the two sides just use religion to identify each other.
Strategist
2015 Apr 6, 6:28pm
Both are, but Christianity is a far greater threat. A threat isn't determined by just how bad something is, but also by the probability of it happening.
How can you say Christianity is a greater threat? If Steven Spielberg makes a movie insulting Jesus, the probability of him getting shot by Christian wackos is virtually zero. If he made the same movie about Mohammad, him getting shot by Muslim wackos is almost certain. This is why Hollywood will not make movies insulting Islam. It's OK to insult another religion, but never Islam.
I am an atheist, an evolutionist and a freedom lover just like you. But we need to see the real threats to us. Islam is a chronic threat to every religion, every nation, every ideology, everywhere on earth, at all times. Muslims are the greatest victims of this Mad Religion. We as atheists need to reach out to all the religions of the world, and join them in subduing this Mad religion.
Every time we attack Islam the extreme Liberal Left yells out "Racism" and then goes on to attack Christianity, as if that was not racism by their definition. :(
indigenous
2015 Apr 6, 7:19pm
To the last 2 arguments. To come to any conclusions arguing values is a waste of time. To get anywhere the arguments have to be objective. Subjective = personal values. The starting point that most of us can agree on is that life wants to continue itself and others. Unless you are a Radical Muslim to which the majority of us would say they are insane and argumentation is futile. Descending from this would be arguing about property rights.
As to abortion the objective answer would be whose rights are imposed on the most. Certainly the unborn child in the later stages of the pregnancy and equally the mother in the earlier stages of the pregnancy.
Off topic the objectivity of global warming is highly dubious.
indigenous
2015 Apr 6, 7:27pm
Muslims are the greatest victims of this Mad Religion. We as atheists need to reach out to all the religions of the world, and join them in subduing this Mad religion.
Although funding them through socialistic public transfers and allowing them to remain individuated from the melting pot doesn't help.
Also bombing their countries doesn't help. In Iraq and Afghanistan 6000 American soldiers were killed to 250,000 civilians.
Also following the money would sure help. I have heard credible reports that the initial funding for ISIS was to fight Assad. I have also read comments that they get their money from Saudi Arabia. I think this would be a primary place to investigate. Remember the Iran Contra scandal? I.E. it happens, this time with Obama.
Yea yea we need to kill them if necessary, but the above has a lot more to do with the pathology than war mongering.
tovarichpeter
2015 Apr 6, 7:28pm
"When the IRA was blowing up buses and public places all over the UK and Eire in the 1980s, along with ETA (Basque Independence Terrorists) how come nobody blamed Catholicism?" /p>
The IRA was condemned by every RC bishop in Northern and Southern Ireland and by the overwhelming majority of RC priests in both places.
Y
2015 Apr 6, 7:32pm
Choosing to obey or not obey the law of the land is not 'coercion' you dumb shit.
Consent, by definition, must be freely given without coercion.
I know...give it time, it may fade away...
I hate .
Y
2015 Apr 6, 7:55pm
Vaginal ultrasound is not rape.
There are tens of thousands of vaginal ultrasounds performed annually, with the patients consent.
If they were humiliated during the procedure as you portray, no one would ever give their consent.
If it was as painful as you portray, there would be anesthetics applied prior to the procedure. In practice, there is not, which says a lot about the statements you are pulling out of your ass.
If it was rape, there would be thousands of arrests, and eventually no doctors available to perform the procedure.
Your problem is that you associate a common medical procedure used in preventive medicine, with a sexual act.
Whats up with that???
Maybe you are the one humiliated and in pain thinking about all those hundreds...yes thousands of vaginal ultrasounds being given each year right under your nose.
Best you talk to professionals about these visions you are having
...
he entire purpose of the bill requiring women to get raped before getting an abortion was to make the process so humiliating and painful that effectively no woman would dare attempt to do it.
Strategist
2015 Apr 6, 8:01pm
My Doctor stuck his finger up my ass just last week. If that is rape I need disability, because I can't work anymore.
indigenous
2015 Apr 6, 8:03pm
My Doctor stuck his finger up my ass just last week. If that is rape I need disability, because I can't work anymore.
Did he have a hand on each of your shoulders? If so it was probably rape.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Apr 6, 8:55pm
For real?
FFS - the UK has an entire government agency (MI5) who's sole responsibility is to spy on their own people and get intelligence to combat DOMESTIC terrorism.
Yes, for real, a whole assortment of new laws were passed in the UK over a relatively few minor incidents, all of which paled in comparison to IRA terror in the 70s and 80s, against Civilians.
And Strategist, I mean who blamed the Vatican and the Pope for the IRA and ETA?
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 10:23pm
Most abortions are performed chemically, such as by using the RU-486 pill.
Wrong.
Tell that to the American Life League who posted this graph.
Only idiots quote Wikipedia, especially on political issues. It's as accurate as Fox News.
Ha! So rich hearing Dan complaining about "poisoning the well" when he accuses pro-life people wanting to rape women.
I never said pro-life people wanted to rape women. You are just outright lying now.
What I said was that the Christian right backed Republican Party in Iowa tried to pass a law requiring women to get raped via trans-vaginal ultrasound before getting an abortion in order to effectively force them not to get one. I stand by that statement. If you want to argue the issue, go ahead. I look forward to making you look even more foolish.
You are a joke. You have to know that - right?
Translation: I have no more arguments.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 10:26pm
There are tens of thousands of vaginal ultrasounds performed annually, with the patients consent.
The key word there is with consent.
To force a woman to have such an exam in order to have an abortion is to remove consent. And thus, by the legal definition used by the Department of Justice and the FBI, it is rape. That is simply a fact no matter how you try to twist the situation.
Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.
The bill requiring women to subject themselves to that procedure had absolutely NO medical purpose. It was strictly intended to humiliate and dehumanize the women seeking abortions. That is why the Democrat-controlled state senate defeated the bill.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 10:39pm
Choosing to obey or not obey the law of the land is not 'coercion' you dumb shit.
And your statement doesn't apply to the bill forcing women to have trans-vaginal ultrasounds, you dumb shit. That bill was struck down because it was clearly a rape bill.
Quite a few red states tried passing these rape laws and they were called out in the media as state rape laws. In fact, the Journal of Criminal and Law and Criminology, Volume 103, Issue 4, Fall 2013 published an article, Humiliation, Degradation, Penetration: What Legislatively Required Pre-Abortion Transvaginal Ultrasounds and Rape Have in Common
A doctor reacted to this kind of legislation by saying, “I do not feel that it is reactionary or even inaccurate to describe an unwanted, non-indicated transvaginal ultrasound as ‘rape.’ If I insert ANY object into ANY orifice without informed consent, it is rape. And coercion of any kind negates consent, informed or otherwise.â€
A Virginia state legislator considering such a bill said, “What’s before us is akin to rape.†A rape victim expressed her thoughts in a recent blog post, The State of Virginia About to Rape Women, Legally: “I have been a victim of rape, so I don’t use the word lightly, but there’s no other way to put it.â€
So, you Shrek, you asshole, are going to say that an actual rape victim is full of shit when she equates the force trans-vaginal ultrasounds to rape just like the FBI and Dept. of Justice do?
Y
2015 Apr 7, 7:03am
Yeah...Shrek, you asshole...where are you, you pussy! Say something!
what's this? Shrek in bed with the libbys? Nuff said..
So, you Shrek, you asshole,
HydroCabron
2015 Apr 7, 7:49am
In Iraq and Afghanistan 6000 American soldiers were killed to 250,000 civilians.
The nice thing about Christianity is that it doesn't make killing the infidels a policy, so Christians can feel better about themselves. I'm sure just as many Christians spoke up about the slaughter of innocent people in Iraqistan as moderate Muslims do about terrorism. That is: not a whole lot.
The only thing I like about radical Islam is that they're honest about this one thing: killing as policy. American Christians tell themselves "The government did it to make us safer - I don't favor killing innocent people.
Strategist
2015 Apr 7, 7:59am
And Strategist, I mean who blamed the Vatican and the Pope for the IRA and ETA?
I'm not sure what role the Vatican played with regards to IRA and ETA. If they did not get blamed, they may not have anything to do with them.
As for Pope John Paul, I liked the guy. Not necessarily his views, but the man was peaceful. Wasn't it him who admitted after 400 years that the Church screwed up on Galileo?
Strategist
2015 Apr 7, 8:01am
In Iraq and Afghanistan 6000 American soldiers were killed to 250,000 civilians.
The nice thing about Christianity is that it doesn't make killing the infidels a policy, so Christians can feel better about themselves. I'm sure just as many Christians spoke up about the slaughter of innocent people in Iraqistan as moderate Muslims do about terrorism. That is: not a whole lot.
The only thing I like about radical Islam is that they're honest about this one thing: killing as policy. American Christians tell themselves "The government did it to make us safer - I don't favor killing innocent people.
We did not kill any innocent civilians.
HydroCabron
2015 Apr 7, 8:04am
Wasn't it him who admitted after 400 years that the Church screwed up on Galileo?
The low standards for Pope John Paul II continue to amuse. Admitting the Earth orbits the Sun after only 400 years? So brave!
Hey, look! He smiled and waved! What a great man - sure he swept sex abuse under the rug, and was a Neanderthal reactionary, but he was anti-communist and he had a nice smile!
I'm not sure what role the Vatican played with regards to IRA and ETA.
One point here is that these are the standards to which Muslims are held. If ISIS blows up a lunch counter in Aleppo, Muslims from Indonesia to Burbank are thought to share the guilt. This is bullshit, just as it's bullshit to blame the Pope for the actions of the IRA.
indigenous
2015 Apr 7, 8:16am
The nice thing about Christianity is that it doesn't make killing the infidels a policy, so Christians can feel better about themselves. I'm sure just as many Christians spoke up about the slaughter of innocent people in Iraqistan as moderate Muslims do about terrorism. That is: not a whole lot.
The only thing I like about radical Islam is that they're honest about this one thing: killing as policy. American Christians tell themselves "The government did it to make us safer - I don't favor killing innocent people.
Agreed.
However the US is as much of a warmonger as the terrorists ever were, they haven't gotten close to 250,000 people in just Iraqistan. Yea we can and do buy into all of the bullshit reasons but they are bullshit.
The deal is if you don't give them a game the game becomes to get you, similiar to current Mexico, maybe the future US?
« First « Previous Comments 264 - 303 of 2,893 Next » Last » Search these comments
A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins
Dear friends,
The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!
What most Muslims will say:
Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.
What knowledgeable Muslims should say:
That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.
What the Qur'an Teaches Us:
We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).
The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).
He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.
Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.
Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.
We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.
Arabic translation الترجمة العربية
See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.
Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.