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Bigsby
2015 Nov 16, 3:31am
Bigsby would consider this a mere aberration and shift the topic to violence against Pakistanis and Bangladeshi, when it is just collateral damage(staying silent) when stuff like this is going on in England:
No, I wouldn't. I would consider it a despicable crime and failed policing. If it's more pervasive within a specific community, then it needs to be addressed, but any fool can pick and choose cases to try and make a point. That kind of 'stuff' goes on around the world. You see groups of white pedos arrested from time to time. Do you then think it reasonable for Muslims to make mileage from that? See how it works?
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Nov 16, 4:40am
Isn't the crux of the problem, Israel's resistance to the establishment of a Palestinian state in Palestine? Isn't that the festering sore that drives anti-Westernism and specifically anti-Americanism in Muslim Countries. Then the next question is Why do we allow this to continue? We need to impose regime change in Israel.
No. First off, ISIS and AQI and Al-Nusrah clearly identify this Civil War as an anti-Shi'a, anti-Alawite operation to cleanse Islam of Heresy.
Marcus has a thread about the major concern of Insurgents when stopping vehicles and running areas is being to identify Shi'a. Iraq Civil War is also about Kurds (far more Secular) vs. Shi'a vs. Salafi. Pentagon briefing I posted in another thread also has Al-Baghdadi discussing the war as being Sunni vs. Shi'a.
Marcus Threat/NYT Story: http://patrick.net/Questions+Rebels+Use+to+Tell+Sunni+From+Shiite
This stuff has been going on since the 4th or 5th Caliph, around 700AD, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Jews, Christians, Palestine, or anything else. It's all over a succession in Baghdad 1000+ years ago.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Nov 16, 4:49am
Even the DC School for Saudi Arabian diplomats uses these textbooks and continued doing so after promises to correct them.
They've been found in Birmingham UK taxpayer-funded "Faith" schools.
Remember, Saudi Textbooks were first criticized before 9/11. It was *before* 9/11 Saudi Arabia promised the first time to remove offensive passages, it continues till this day:
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/education/258583-saudi-textbooks-propagate-intolerance
That is now almost two decades ago after Promises. Similar promises have been made elsewhere and not honored:
And these passages are also used in the official School for Saudi Diplomat Children. Here is Austria threatening to close a Saudi School for outrageous passages:
http://www.thelocal.at/20141215/vienna-moves-to-close-saudi-school
From DC to Indonesia:
http://jakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/news/islamic-textbooks-spark-concern-among-teachers/
I had a link that had Textbook Content provided in France by Saudi Arabia to schoolchildren, can't find what I did with it. But I think you get the drift.
Oh, and Saudi Money corrupts. Here is an Austrian Judge saying that the Abaya is just like a Judge's Robe and asserting that those accusing Saudi Arabia of Human Rights violations are ridiculous - while both a Judge AND on the Saudi King Abdullah NGO Payroll.
http://www.thelocal.at/20141023/judges-furious-at-pro-saudi-comments
Strategist
2015 Nov 16, 7:16am
Pretty much the entire Muslim World.
Thanks for posting, Thunder.
I ask all the Islam apologists, Tovobot, Bob, Bigsby, and Gary if they believe Islam preaches hate and violence. The root cause of all Islamic violence.
Strategist
2015 Nov 16, 7:20am
Thanks for posting, Thunder.
I ask all the Islam apologists, Tovobot, Bob, Bigsby, and Gary if they believe Islam preaches hate and violence. The root cause of all Islamic violence.
Look at the damn video and tell me guys.......Can we trust these hate filled fanatics in Pakistan with nuclear weapons?
Shaman
2015 Nov 16, 7:45am
Look at the damn video and tell me guys.......Can we trust these hate filled fanatics in Pakistan with nuclear weapons?
Seems like we are already "trusting" Pakistan with nukes.
But hey, thanks for buying into the propaganda for endless war!
Bigsby
2015 Nov 16, 7:46am
I ask all the Islam apologists, Tovobot, Bob, Bigsby, and Gary if they believe Islam preaches hate and violence. The root cause of all Islamic violence.
I'm not an apologist for ISIS. I just dislike the tone and sweeping generalizations of the usual suspects (and a few others) towards the Muslim population as a whole on this website. And the answer to your question is no, not from my over a decade experience of living in the Middle East. I do not hear or see hate and violence being preached. The message has been corrupted by some but far from all. There are over 1.6bn Muslims in the world. Most live in peace, are not violent and don't preach hate.
Strategist
2015 Nov 16, 8:05am
I ask all the Islam apologists, Tovobot, Bob, Bigsby, and Gary if they believe Islam preaches hate and violence. The root cause of all Islamic violence.
I'm not an apologist for ISIS. I just dislike the tone and sweeping generalizations of the usual suspects (and a few others) towards the Muslim population as a whole on this website. And the answer to your question is no, not from my over a decade experience of living in the Middle East. I do not hear or see hate and violence being preached. The message has been corrupted by some but far from all. There are over 1.6bn Muslims in the world. Most live in peace, are not violent and don't preach hate.
We all agree "All" Muslims are not terrorists. The great majority of Muslims are no different then non Muslims.
When Muslims use the terms "Americans" "West" "Jews" "Christians" we understand they are not referring to every single person in that group.
Do not take a generalized comment literally.
Bigsby
2015 Nov 16, 8:29am
We all agree "All" Muslims are not terrorists. The great majority of Muslims are no different then non Muslims.
When Muslims use the terms "Americans" "West" "Jews" "Christians" we understand they are not referring to every single person in that group.
Do not take a generalized comment literally.
If that's what you really believe, then you should be more careful with the language you use.
resistance
2015 Nov 16, 8:39am
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32169080
At least 147 people, mostly students, have been killed in an assault by al-Shabab militants on a university in north-eastern Kenya. Heavily armed attackers stormed Garissa University early on Thursday, killing two security guards then firing indiscriminately on students. Four of the gunman were eventually surrounded in a dormitory, and died when their suicide vests detonated. It is the deadliest attack yet by al-Shabab. The militants singled out Christians and shot them, witnesses said. More than 500 students managed to escape, 79 of whom were injured. A fifth gunman has reportedly been arrested.
ah wait, that was back in april.
so many murders by muslims, hard to keep track.
and that massacre of random innocent people by muslims was also america's fault, right bigsby?
Strategist
2015 Nov 16, 10:03am
We all agree "All" Muslims are not terrorists. The great majority of Muslims are no different then non Muslims.
When Muslims use the terms "Americans" "West" "Jews" "Christians" we understand they are not referring to every single person in that group.
Do not take a generalized comment literally.If that's what you really believe, then you should be more careful with the language you use.
We can all easily lose track of the words used in any heated discussion. You and Bob are smart enough to figure out the real message behind a generalized choice of words from an opposing argument.
resistance
2015 Nov 20, 8:31pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/world/africa/mali-hotel-attack-radisson.html
Gunmen shouting “Allahu akbar†stormed a Radisson Blu hotel Friday in Bamako, the capital of the West African nation of Mali, seizing scores of hostages and leaving bodies strewn across the building.
allahu akbar, hostages, bodies, blah, blah, blah
religion of peace, blah, blah, blah
again and again and again and again...
NDrLoR
2015 Nov 20, 9:07pm
We all agree "All" Muslims are not terrorists. The great majority of Muslims are no different then non Muslims
The same principle applied to the great majority of Japs and Germans during World War II or Koreans in the Korean war--it wasn't their populace who were dangerous, it was their armies that had been assembled and were under the direction of despots. Left to themselves, most of the population would just as soon go about their business and be left alone. Although in the majority of those cases they didn't raise their children from infancy to be killers.
resistance
2016 Jan 20, 1:53pm
it's pretty much a daily event somewhere in the world. just another normal day today:
Gunfire and explosions rang out across the campus as the attackers, some apparently teenagers themselves, stormed through classrooms and dormitories shouting “Allahu akbar,†or “God is great,†and firing at random.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/21/world/asia/bacha-khan-university-attack-charsadda.html
heartwarthog
2016 Jan 21, 12:43am
Iran's culture ministry has banned use of the word "wine" along with the names of "foreign animals" and certain dignitaries in books published in the country.
According to the ministry, the censorship is designed to protect Iranians from "Western cultural onslaught" and promote "the principles of the Islamic revolution".
http://www.businessinsider.com/iran-home-of-shiraz-bans-word-wine-2016-1
curious2
2016 Jan 21, 10:45pm
it's pretty much a daily event somewhere in the world. just another normal day today:
"At least 25 people died when suspected Islamist-militant gunmen attacked a beach-front restaurant and a hotel in the Somali capital, Mogadishu." The gunmen reportedly shouted the usual Aloha Snackbars.
Dan8267
2016 Jan 22, 12:07pm
Religion is like forest fires. You can't pick and choose which ones to fight. You have to extinguish all flames or they grow to consume the world. Remove Islam but do not address the root problem of religion itself and another religion just as bad or worse will take its place.
The mythology matters little. Once people accept irrationality, all bets regarding morality and the welfare of mankind are off.
resistance
2016 Jan 22, 1:20pm
Remove Islam but do not address the root problem of religion itself and another religion just as bad or worse will take its place.
but maybe one religion gives you immunity to infection by another.
Dan8267
2016 Jan 22, 1:23pm
but maybe one religion gives you immunity to infection by another.
If that were true, neither Islam nor Christianity would exist. Both became popular by converting others including Judaism and various pagan religions.
Now living in a culture based on natural philosophy, the scientific method, and rationality provides amazing immunity from religion. Just look at the decline of religion in the western world as our society embraced science and technology.
curious2
2016 Jan 22, 1:28pm
immunity to infection by another.
Maybe some resistance, but not immunity. The latest incarnation of Jihadi John was raised Hindu but converted. Also, an American who had converted to Islam was later killed by ISIL/Daesh. If you accept the premise of supernatural belief and wishful thinking, it creates a vulnerability that can be exploited, like a backdoor into the mind. Around half of Americans convert from one religion (or denomination) to another, but Islam acts like a resistant infection because it mandates capital punishment for apostasy.
MisdemeanorRebel
2016 Jan 22, 1:50pm
Religion is like forest fires. You can't pick and choose which ones to fight. You have to extinguish all flames or they grow to consume the world. Remove Islam but do not address the root problem of religion itself and another religion just as bad or worse will take its place.
Exactly. This is why Unitarians and other hippy-dippy religions apologetics fail.
IF Jesus was the hippy peacenik these groups say, then the Inquisition, Witch-burnings, etc. grew out of his teachings anyway. As Curious2 mentioned above, all religion is a "backdoor exploit".
Keep in mind the huge battles over whether Balrogs have wings dark as shadow, or are encircled by a shadow as if they had wings, and whether they "Fly" as in aerial or "Fly" as in running fast. Any large text has ambiguous statements. The Prince of Peace also claimed he came Not in Peace, but with a sword, to set Father against Son, while commanding Peter to drop the Sword, etc.
Islam is far less ambiguous in certain passages, like Leviticus is less ambiguous than the New Testament.
People can even read the NT and come away with the idea that Jesus only came to save the Elect, whom god nominated at the creation of the world, and engage in Predestinationism/Calvinism. Even though Jesus unambiguously says "Any who believes upon me..."
If that were true, neither Islam nor Christianity would exist. Both became popular by converting others including Judaism and various pagan religions.
Now living in a culture based on natural philosophy, the scientific method, and rationality provides amazing immunity from religion. Just look at the decline of religion in the western world as our society embraced science and technology.
Very few religions avoid infecting others. Here’s a list of examples (definitely not full):
Traditional Judaism (~ the last 2500 years): discourages conversion
Modern Christianity (~ since reformation): makes very limited conversion attempts.
Islam: the most aggressive conversion attempts, although does not apply to all countries (e.g. Turkey or Azerbaijan are pretty liberal)
Druze: prohibits conversion (you can only be born a Druze).
Socialism: only second to Islam in promoting conversion. And of course, the Socialists/liberals will tell you theirs is not a religion (hint: they are dead wrong).
FortWayne
2016 Jan 22, 2:17pm
How can you say Christianity is a greater threat? If Steven Spielberg makes a movie insulting Jesus, the probability of him getting shot by Christian wackos is virtually zero. If he made the same movie about Mohammad, him getting shot by Muslim wackos is almost certain.
We should get Dan to make a movie insulting Mohammad!
@FortWayne you forgot the violence at Planned Parenthood and abortion type clinics. Right wing extremists embrace Christianity in America and perpetrate violence increasingly too. KKK membership has exploded since Obama took office. (so are you going to blame Obama?)
Do you want to say that these assholes do not claim to be Christians? The FBI and DHS has long been quoted on their assessment of the right wing as the primary threat in America. On the other hand local police have traditionally been perpetrators of right-wing violence and are complicit in organized hate groups such as KKK.
Hardly any of the counted shooters mentioned religious affiliation as a motive, they just count any white American shooter as Christian since it's the largest faith in the US. Nowhere is religion be found on a manifesto. In fact most of the white American shooters are feminized mommy lesser beta or omega kids who lack(ed) a strong if not any father figure as well as access to pussy and likely have been on leftist approved add/adhd/anxiety/addiction drugs. They are the failures of a feminist-leftist/cuckservative society that condemns any expressions of manhood and male energy, not of religion. Mother jones did their usual anti-conservative and anti-religious hack-job here, and a poor one at that. It's a leftoid world gone mad, where the muslim attackers clearly and eloquently explain (and shout) that they are killing because it is their religious duty and we tell them that they don't really mean that in their state of confusion and that their religion is peaceful, and where a white American shooter does not clarify any of their actions or mumbles incoherently we immediately know and tell him it's due to their evil Christian affiliation. You can't make this shit up!
PockyClipsNow
2016 Jan 22, 4:00pm
Leftoid cuckservative feminized beta adhd muslim hack-job shooter manifesto!!!!!
Languages are changing faster than ever with the internet.
Dan8267
2016 Jan 22, 4:55pm
Socialism: only second to Islam in promoting conversion. And of course, the Socialists/liberals will tell you theirs is not a religion (hint: they are dead wrong).
Only someone deluded by the religion of conservative bigotry would say something that stupid.
Socialism is a tactic, nothing more. And it is a tacit that cannot be avoided under any government. The only question is how and when to use that tactic. The largest socialist program in all of human history is the U.S. military. Somehow I doubt you are in favor of dismantling that socialist program.
Liberalism is a social, not economic, philosophy that advocates the following principles.
1. All people are equal under law.
2. We are a nation of rights, not privileges.
3. The purpose of government is to protect rights (from life to liberty to property).
4. People should be allowed to do what they want as long as they are not violating the rights of others. Corollary: There should be no victimless crimes.
So, if you hate liberalism so much, which of the above principles do you disagree with?
Dan8267
2016 Jan 22, 5:03pm
Dan is much more likely to make a movie insulting the likes of FortWayne, Strategist, CIC, Captain etc
Those idiots are Christian Islamists. The differ from ISIS and Al Qaeda only in the particular myths they believe, but in all important things, in all philosophy, they are no different from any jihadist.
An irrationalist is an irrationalist. It does not matter if the crazy person thinks the universe was created by a giant green smurf or a giant blue smurf. The fact that he thinks there is a giant smurf responsible for all of the universe is what matters. The particulars of the delusion are irrelevant. What matters is that the delusion is unassailable with logic, reason, or facts.
I look at CIC and James Holmes and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the exact same way. They are idiots who deserve no respect and who's poisonous ideas must be opposed relentlessly. Fort Wayne and Strategist aren't that far behind.
The only reason why I talk about Christianity more is that Christianity is the religion that has infected our society and affects our laws. So it's more relevant to our daily lives and the people who are elected and appointed to powerful positions within our government. To put it simply, a sane person is more concerned about the disease in his own body than a worse disease in someone else's body.
Rin
2016 Jan 22, 5:10pm
I look at CIC and James Holmes and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the exact same way. They are idiots who deserve no respect and who's poisonous ideas must be opposed relentlessly.
No argument from me on those chumps!
Strategist
If Strategist were simply rich (not tied to an area due to wife and job), he'd be traveling with me, sipping Martinis and banging hoes from Australia to Holland. And then, he'd mellow out and completely forget about politics and simply enjoy life.
That's the true nature of a Strategist type, not some guy, wasting his time on PatNet.
resistance
2016 Jan 22, 9:47pm
Those idiots are Christian Islamists. The differ from ISIS and Al Qaeda only in the particular myths they believe, but in all important things, in all philosophy, they are no different from any jihadist.
that's just not true. you really think that they are going to start shooting up the place in the name of jesus, because they want to imitate Him?
curious2
2016 Jan 23, 3:15am
And again today:
The only reason why I talk about Christianity more is that Christianity is the religion that has infected our society and affects our laws.
Dan, I respect you and like many of your comments, but Christianity helped found our society.
More than 10% of human DNA consists of viral DNA that infected our ancestors, and more than 90% of the DNA we carry around is not even human, it belongs to microbes that live in us and on us. Whether a particular infection is parasitic or symbiotic depends on whether it is harmful or helpful. 80% of humans believe in a religion, and the most successful countries in the world have Christian majorities. In contrast, countries with Muslim majorities have tended to stagnate or even regress, including Egypt which used to be one of the world's most advanced civilizations back in the days of Ra, Osiris, and the original Isis. If people insist on having a religion, as most people do, then the best to suggest is that they should choose a successful religion, e.g. Ra/Osiris or practically anything other than Islam.
instead, we've had two Presidents in a row who claimed to "respect" Islam, even while waging war in Muslim countries. That's a dreadful combination. First, it isn't the place of an American President to "respect" Islam, nor any particular religion over others, nor religion over irreligion. Second, if we are going to wage war in a country, we might offer some reasonable advice instead of merely killing people. For example, we might reasonably point out that their ancestors, with nearly identical DNA, lived better in the same place before it became infected with Islam. We don't need to advocate any particular religion, nor religion in general, but we should suggest most Egyptians consider anything else, which would be less harmful than what they have now.
Dan8267
2016 Jan 23, 5:57am
that's just not true. you really think that they are going to start shooting up the place in the name of jesus, because they want to imitate Him?
If they were born in the middle east, they would be in the front lines for ISIS. It's only because western society has more law and order and a secular government that they aren't. Put them in America circa 1580 and they would be witch hunters.
I do honestly believe that the only thing keeping CIC from being a terrorist is that he's too cowardly to risk his own neck. As far as morality is concerned, I doubt CIC values human life any more than the idiots I mentioned who have committed terrorist acts.
Dan8267
2016 Jan 23, 6:04am
Dan, I respect you and like many of your comments, but Christianity helped found our society.
As did slavery. But Christianity certainly is not necessary to found a society based on western ideas that predate Christianity like democracy, liberty, and secularism. The ancient Greeks invented those.
And certainly we don't need Christianity to promote social justice, equality under law, social safety nets, anti-poverty programs, and peaceful coexistence with other nations. The last of those things is helped by commerce more than anything else. Nations tend not to war with trading partners. It's not in their economic interests and the people who decide to go to war don't want to disrupt commerce that is making them rich.
It's easy to find moderate American Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism and who will claim that Islam has helped them be better people and love their neighbors. However, the long view of history has consistently shown that religion, regardless of mythology, does far more harm than good and that the good attributed to religion can and does happen just as well or better without religion.
If Christianity never existed, and no other religion had taken its place, then the world today would be far better as shown in this classic graph.
resistance
2016 Jan 23, 10:33am
If they were born in the middle east, they would be in the front lines for ISIS.
where are the christian terrorist groups in the middle east, murdering random civilians and yelling "praise jesus"?
ah, they don't exist? why is that? mideast christians and muslims are genetically the same people in the same environment, only one difference... (this is a naturally occurring experiment with one variable, if you want to think of it in scientific terms)
sure, all religions are inherently anti-scientific because they claim knowledge of the supernatural and stress faith over reason, but they are not all the same in their effects on the rest of us.
Dan8267
2016 Jan 23, 11:14am
where are the christian terrorist groups in the middle east, murdering random civilians and yelling "praise jesus"?
ah, they don't exist? why is that?
There used to be lots of Christians threatening to slaughter people if they didn't convert. That's exactly how Christianity spread through Europe, North America, and South America. Today Christianity has been mostly neutered because of hundreds of years of naturalists, scientists, and rationalists chipping away at the power of Christianity. Progress started during the Renaissance and took 500 years to get from witch hunts to where we are today. Hopefully with technology and the Internet connecting the world, it won't take that long to transform the Middle East, which is today where Europe and America was in 1500.
Make no mistake, Christians started killing people as soon as Christianity was made legal in 315 C.E. and mass murder of others by Christians did not stop until 1945. That's 1630 years of Christian slaughter that only stopped three generations ago. There are still people alive today who are survivors of Christian genocides. Yes, a lot of progress has been made of the past 70 years, but to say that the Christianity is somehow fundamentally different from Islam is simply not born out by history. Islam would have to continue behaving exactly as it is right now until the year 2240 just to catch up with Christianity.
We tend to forget just for how long and until how recently Christianity had been as barbaric as Islam because it's not within most living people's memory. But the fact is, you can cherry pick all the good stuff from the Bible or the Koran, it does not change the fact that the followers of both families of religions have committed terrible atrocities in the name of their religions. Nor does it change the most important point. Faith in any religion requires a wholesale suspension of rational thought, and such irrationality inescapably causes death and destruction and extensive bad decision making. This is a property intrinsic to all religions regardless of how passive, sweet, or tolerant the teachings of that religion are.
Good philosophies do not require lies to justify themselves. Good ideas do not require faith as empirical verification supports any good idea. Faith is a red flag that indicates a movement is corrupt and evil even if it started out with the best of intentions.
sure, all religions are inherently anti-scientific because they claim knowledge of the supernatural and stress faith over reason, but they are not all the same in their effects on the rest of us.
Yes, there is variance in the effects of religion, more so because of the age of the religion than the particular teachings as in the case of Christianity and Islam.
However, all religions are the same disease. Arguing that one is better is like arguing that herpes isn't as bad for some people than for others. You still don't want to be infected.
resistance
2016 Jan 23, 12:31pm
Christians started killing people as soon as Christianity was made legal in 315 C.E
not merely made legal, but made the state religion. you are simply talking about religion and government being joined so that resistance to the religion is assumed to be resistance to the government. the particular religion is irrelevant to that effect. (except that islam demands to also be the government - separation of church and state is explicitly forbidden for them, while christians and all others can live with the separation)
the evil of state religion is a completely different issue from small bands of self-organized fanatics happy to die just so that they can kill "non-believers". that effect simply did not happen in christianity, or any other religion, ever.
christians may have distain for non-christians, but do not generally hate them with a white-hot intensity which rapidly spills over into public massacres and happy death in the process. that is unique to islam among all religions.
you're comparing the common cold to rabies. both are infectious and cause harm, but only one of them makes you bite others, froth at the mouth, and die.
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2009/05/terrifying-brilliance-of-islam.html
read that please. christianity was just baby steps toward islam.
NDrLoR
2016 Jan 23, 2:33pm
christians may have distain for non-christians, but do not generally hate
They often see them as ones to be converted, but not coerced. The theory is also that if Christians really live the Christ-like life, it will make lost people take notice and want to convert. Of course today, the real hostility is directed from "nones" as they call themselves towards Christians. I'd say most of secular Europe, which is after all considered part of Christendom, despises Christianity more than it does Islam.
christians may have distain for non-christians, but do not generally hate
They often see them as ones to be converted, but not coerced. The theory is also that if Christians really live the Christ-like life, it will make lost people take notice and want to convert. Of course today, the real hostility is directed from "nones" as they call themselves towards Christians. I'd say most of secular Europe, which is after all considered part of Christendom, despises Christianity more than it does Islam.
Very true. Being outspoken Christian makes you an immediate outcast in Western society, the denominations are mostly just for show or so they can go and watch the Christmas play with their kids and visit the Church once a year. The leftoid-feminist hivemind has created a narrative that you are evil for being Christian and that you must be persecuted if you display your Christian values to anyone but yourself. This is deliberate as it tears apart one important part of the fabric that kept societies and countries together and cohesive. If people feel like aliens among themselves, they have nothing to counter to the ruling class and narrative for whom the rules do not apply.
resistance
2016 Jan 23, 2:44pm
Of course today, the real hostility is directed from "nones" as they call themselves towards Christians. I'd say most of secular Europe, which is after all considered part of Christendom, despises Christianity more than it does Islam.
this is true, and quite amazing.
it's going to take a lot of education of europeans by muslim immigrants for them to finally learn the difference. france has had quite a bit of education lately, but it hasn't sunk in yet.
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A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins
Dear friends,
The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!
What most Muslims will say:
Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.
What knowledgeable Muslims should say:
That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.
What the Qur'an Teaches Us:
We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).
The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).
He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.
Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.
Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.
We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.
Arabic translation الترجمة العربية
See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.
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