patrick.net

freespeechforever says

Russia is portrayed as an enemy

Russia is a bad demographic economic country, small country, doesn't really make anything of value, it's currency moves all over the map with the price of oil... they have a lot nuclear weapons, that's about it.

But.. to be portrayed as a enemy is because they don't have our same values, Putin is a dark soul man.... He doesn't like NATO and I don't blame him one bit.

US establisment? It's Russia who openly declared US as enemy in their military doctrine. Shall we continue to excersize "strategic patience" and pretend they didn't? To what end?

Logan, you be to be the biggest fool l've ever met online. (And that's saying something)
You haven't yet answered the question.

I'm doubting you even understand the question... I thought you studied history? Your summation of Russia/USSR is...
Has bad demographics.
Doesn't manufacture much.
Volatile currency in relation to oil.
Has a lot of things that go boom.

Putin is a dark soul man? WTF are you talking about? You don't even know him. Perhaps you think he's James Brown??

Therefore what? We in the west have a grudge against 'them' because of their ineptitude?

Short, badly written sentences full of non sequiturs, coupled with incoherent babbling, faulty reasoning and inability to express oneself with any clarity whatsoever... Only underline the chaos of your thought processes as you attempt to fight through the narcissism that blankets your brain.

freespeechforever says

single,original idea of your own.

What this you speak of?

I find the recent U.S. troop movements in Poland, Norway, Ukraine, etc, during Obama's last lame-duck days very telling and disturbing.

It's as if the military-industrial complex is screaming "we're going to try & make a good/bad empire duopoly relevant again" (because it's highly profitable building weapons in such eras where we can deceive the masses.

Gotta scare people into believing that there's an imminent threat to their existence that requires nearly 32% of their total taxes and government budgets if they're going to make war-profiteering great again!

rando says

They need to shift focus away from Saudi Arabia.

Good job patrick. One person on patnet with a clue. That is above average.

That being said Trump embracing Russia and sucking up to Putin is stupid. Russia isn't going to directly challenge the US. They are going to continue to support their cold war alliances, most of which are countries the US opposes. Including shia muslim countries. Russia will cause mischief to their advantage anywhere the opportunity pops up. If it that causes problems for the US then too bad. The US needs to be respectful, but extremely wary of Russia. It is very unlikely they are never going to be a friend or ally. History and culture is very much against it.

What I don't understand is that through the 2000s, Putin was a ruthless dictator, having journalists & others mysteriously die, however, during that time period, he was a this 'nice guy' free market President, great ally of America in the mainstream press.

And then, starting around the Sochi Olympics, the media suddenly started calling him a ruthless dictator when that was never hidden for all the years before it.

Russia & Saudi Arabia have core, common interests, IMO, chief among them being higher long-term crude oil prices, natural gas prices and pipeline distribution network to Europe, and, particularly important to the Ruling House of Saud Family (despite their reluctance to openly admit it), destroying militant Islam (which threatens the Saudi Ruling Family, which is why Osama Bin-laden, aka Tim Osmond, financed while the CIA when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan, was banished from the kingdom despite having a politically connected and wealthy father who had co tracts with House of Saud).

junkmail says

You don't even know him.

Clap Clap Clap

Chart please.

Logan Mohtashami says

Laura Ingraham ‏@IngrahamAngle

We have gone from "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall" to "Mr. Putin, whatever you think is best." #flexibility #USSR #Motherland

AllTruth says

Ruling House of Saud Family (despite their reluctance to openly admit it), destroying militant Islam (which threatens the Saudi Ruling Family, which is why Osama Bin-laden, aka Tim Osmond, financed while the CIA when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan, was banished from the kingdom despite having a politically connected and wealthy father who had co tracts with House of Saud).

sure, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people in the House of Saud still financing terrorism

http://www.salon.com/2016/01/06/saudi_arabia_funds_and_exports_islamic_extremism_the_truth_behind_the_toxic_u_s_relationship_with_the_theocratic_nation/

You guys should listen to what Rex Tillerson said about Russia ( congressional testimony) in terms of why and what form is Russia our adversary.

No time. I read faster than he talks.
Link please.

Logan Mohtashami says

You guys should listen to what Rex Tillerson said about Russia ( congressional testimony) in terms of why and what form is Russia our adversary.

Logan, you should a) post anything that is YOUR OWN OPINION RATHER THAN KEEP REFERRING TO OTHERS' OPINIONS (because your brain is tiny, apparently), and b) post some random charts while you're at it.

prodigy says

No time. I read faster than he talks.

Tillerson called Russia an "unfriendly adversary" which poses a "danger" as it attempts to advance its own interests in eastern Europe.

Name a country that doesn't attempt to advance its own interests, Logan.

Dumb Fuck!

AllTruth says

Dumb Fuck!

That was Tillerson's answer to the question is Russia our enemy

You old man are particular grumpy on this thread, am I missing something here, is this the big thread idea for Pat.net

Or did the pill not work this weekend?

Logan, you are proving my point.

There's not a single, original thought in your empty skull.

A head CT scan would show a parakeet on a swing inside your head.

This is common knowledge.
What about his testimony is not?

Logan Mohtashami says

Tillerson called Russia an "unfriendly adversary" which poses a "danger" as it attempts to advance its own interests in eastern Europe.

AllTruth says

A head CT scan would show a parakeet on a swing inside your head.

This is my point, I am missing something here?. prodigy says

What about his testimony is not?

So, going with my theme of not having the same values as America. Now, obviously the term enemy can mean a lot things these days with how the world is more connected together

Tillerson's answer ..... which is the question that is proposed on this thread

"We're not likely to ever be friends," he said, adding that the United States and Russia "do not hold the same values."

So I gave you the thesis of not having the same values, hence why we always look at Russia as our enemy. Also, most likely the new Secretary of State had a similar view to the question that was proposed on this thread.

:-)

Logan parrots Tillerson's canned answer made to a Senate Panel that he knows wants to keep U.S.-Russian relations in bad shape (and actually actively try and further undermine) as he seeks Senate confirmation to become Secretary of State.

Of course Tillerson is going to provide responses that are canned, such as "they don't share our values." (Do China, Saudi Arabia, etc.)

Yet Logan doesn't realize that Tillerson isn't able to express his genuine, free opinions if he really wants to pass the Senate Kabuki Theater "tell them what they want to hear" litmus test.

If you don't like the answer ( We don't share the same values) then you don't like the answer.

However, that was my answer to why the Establishment looks at Russia as our enemy.

LOGAN - DO YOU think Russia (or China, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or any of another 100 nation-states) NOT SHARING OUR VALUES MAKES THEM OUR "ENEMY?"

AllTruth says

"ENEMY?"

China... obviously we have an economic relationship with, but we don't think of the as our true friends

Iran .... is more of an enemy to Israel which is a ally and we don't think of them as friends

Saudi Arabia, nobody really thinks of them as a friend, like Iran they're not friends with Israel either

Russia, is the same, they're more of a threat to Europe not to us directly

Plus, the hacking inncident, not that it changed the election is still an attack to our democracy. ( In terms of what the Establishment) thinks of them by not sharing our values

Plus, Putin himself and what he has done to some of his opponents, goes against our values.

China is way more of a long-term threat to the US than Russia, by a factor of about 20x.

China's economic growth is the engine that Russia now lacks and has always lacked, and that will allow China to invest far more heavily into weapons systems and conventional military forces than Russia could ever hope to.

China is already the world's #2 economy with a population of 1.3 billion.

China and the U.S. barely have any "shared values."

You buy into the "Putin boogeyman" propaganda, lock, stock and barrel.

Putin is hamstrung by factors China's leadership is not.

AllTruth says

by a factor of about 20x.

China doesn't come close to Russia's nuclear weapons.

To me the difference is that Russia's economy isn't strong and they don't have much to lose, where China actually wants to move forward with their state capitalism thesis.

However, your claim in terms of economics, the only 2 major economic powers are going to be China and the U.S.

Logan Mohtashami says

they don't have much to lose

Bwahahaha

What an idiot!

They have their lives to lose.

AllTruth says

Russia & Saudi Arabia have core, common interests, IMO, chief among them being higher long-term crude oil prices, natural gas prices and pipeline distribution network to Europe, and, particularly important to the Ruling House of Saud Family (despite their reluctance to openly admit it), destroying militant Islam (which threatens the Saudi Ruling Family, which is why Osama Bin-laden, aka Tim Osmond, financed while the CIA when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan, was banished from the kingdom despite having a politically connected and wealthy father who had co tracts with House of Saud).

Sorry, but Russia and Saudi Arabia have very little common interest. Here is a good article laying out the problems between them. http://nationalinterest.org/feature/russia-saudi-arabia-are-headed-showdown-16362. The house of Saud and Saudi money, both government and private, is THE source of terrorism around the world. They created and funded the entire worldwide Wahhabi jihadist terrorism movement and are actively supporting jihadist groups in Syria as well as across the region even into Russia. They have zero interest in destroying militant Islam, they are supporting it. They are only interested in controlling it so it doesn't threaten them. Russia is mostly allied with the shia in the middle east. Syria, Iran, Iraq. Wahhbabi (aka saudi) is a radical sunni sect dedicated to destroying shia and moderate sunni. Not much common ground to be had.

Bin Laden wasn't exiled for supporting terrorism. He as exiled for being a threat to the Saudi government, claiming they weren't Islamic enough. Big difference.

FP says

they don't have much to lose

Point was, if your economy isn't doing well, why risk more sanctions from the west by invading Ukraine. When you don't have much to lose, you do stuff like that.

Logan Mohtashami says

Point was, if your economy isn't doing well, why risk more sanctions from the west by invading Ukraine. When you don't have much to lose, you do stuff like that.

And this shows again what a gas bag you are:

1. The US-instigated coup in Ukraine took place before the Russian economic troubles, which started after the oil prices went down, i.e. much later.

2. When your economy is at the edge, sanctions can be even more devastating and painful.

3. You clearly don't understand the way Russians think. Hint - check their history - Napoleon's invasion, WWII, etc.

4. You have very little understanding of Europe and Eastern Europe in particular. Let me enlighten you a bit. Eastern European countries (with small/occasional exceptions) do not have independent foreign policy. They do whatever the US (and to a small extend Germany) dictates them. This is possible because their politicians are corrupt and can be manipulated/blackmailed/bought whenever necessary. Additionally, the children of the elites study/live in the west. So all the "Russia threaten Eastern Europe," cries are little more than US incited hysteria to justify their hyping Russia as an enemy. Russia simply does not have the capability to be a threat.

5. The biggest dangers to your country, which must be contained, are in Asia - China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia. That's where the focus should be, while at the same time improving our relationship with other countries.

@bob2356 best post you've made here in a while!
I agree completely with your power-based assessment of the political situation. It's ALWAYS about power! Even crazy religions like Islam usually take a backseat to issues of power.

FP says

And this shows again what a gas bag you are:

You asked a question on this thread, I gave you the answer.

Establishment will always look at Russia as the enemy because we don't share the same values.

For example, how is Putin still in power? How many people has he killed? How many people has he put into prison that has opposed him?

Rex! ..... "We're not likely to ever be friends," he said, adding that the United States and Russia "do not hold the same values."

Logan Mohtashami says

If you don't like the answer ( We don't share the same values) then you don't like the answer.

However, that was my answer to why the Establishment looks at Russia as our enemy.

If by "values" you mean "SWIFT International Wire Transfer System" then I agree. Russia was all fine and good and Hillary wanted a relations "reset" until the dastardly Ruskies created the BRICS wire transfer system, cutting New York out of that money train. Clearly such disregard for NY banker hegemony couldn't be allowed to stand or spread! So the bankers sponsored a Ukrainian neo-nazi coup, knowing that Russia would intervene to save Russian citizens there and could be officially declared a rogue state.
THAT is why Russia is the enemy! Because they don't share banker values and pay tribute to the bankers of New York! Such heresy! Nothing should be held back in pursuit of justice for these Russian bastards! Let the nukes fly! Better that the world ends in flame and nuclear winter than a banker gets stiffed on a $30 wire transfer fee!

Logan, you have proven to be very shallow. I have no interest in carrying out a serous duscussion with you any more.

I can't follow the money trail to find who in the Establishment/PTB benefits?
If they see a bigger profit elsewhere they will drop their present propaganda
& move to another line of shit.

FP says

So all the "Russia threaten Eastern Europe," cries are little more than US incited hysteria to justify their hyping Russia as an enemy. Russia simply does not have the capability to be a threat.

Russia is a country that sees itself as a pole of power in a multi-polar world. They used to have large influence around the world and cling to that as much as they can, often by opposing the US in countries that have been historically opposed to the US: see Iran, and Syria as just 2 examples.

One of the things Russia does for its "allies" is providing high tech air defense systems that make US air assault very difficult. Insulating them from US influence.

So they wield more influence in the world than China. While arguably China is a stronger country, economically and eventually militarily.

Add to this that Putin is an evil autocrat that bullies and kill its critics/opposition. He will push for as much power and influence as the US let him have.

Clearly Russia a strategic competitor of the US.

It still probably doesn't mean the US should have pushed him around in Ukraine the way Obama/Clinton did.

When you deal with a dictator that can destroy every town, larger than mid size, in the US within an afternoon, you should think twice before pushing him around.

Rin says

What I don't understand is that through the 2000s, Putin was a ruthless dictator, having journalists & others mysteriously die, however, during that time period, he was a this 'nice guy' free market President, great ally of America in the mainstream press.

I think everyone thought he would go after a while and many in the west bought the fact that Medvedev became president in 2008 and was really in power.
It's getting clearer that we are dealing with a dictator for life.

Quigley says

If by "values" you mean "SWIFT International Wire Transfer System" then I agree. Russia was all fine and good and Hillary wanted a relations "reset" until the dastardly Ruskies created the BRICS wire transfer system, cutting New York out of that money train. Clearly such disregard for NY banker hegemony couldn't be allowed to stand or spread!

Like it or not, the US has financial power and uses it around the world for its agenda.
It's an efficient and much less costly (in money and lives) way to enforce power than force is.
The question is do you root for the home team or not?
If you could have the US in power or Putin in power, who would you choose?
Because that's often the choice.

Right, Heraclitus - because Putin is so much more oppressive and ill-willed than China's unelected elite, totalitarian rulers.

/sarc (for oblivious)