patrick.net

indigenous says

bob2356 says

Ask philip morris about what, they were sued by the DOJ. DOJ is a government agency.

So they weren't stopped in a court of law? Somehow the law has nothing to do with this because it was a government agency?

Contradict yourself much? You said "if someone is damaged". Someone is a person. The DOJ is a government agency enforcing the law, You are advocating getting rid of government agencies that enforce the law.

bob2356 says

Regulations are the law you dolt. The law lays out a principle. Regulations implement it. Mises didn't explain that to you?

Gees Bobby I didn't realize you were so emotional.

What color is the sky in your world?

As stated previously these agencies that pull the regulation out of their ass, are there to enhance their own interests at the expense of almost everyone else, that is the magic of government that you obsequiously enshrine.

indigenous says

bob2356 says

most major waterways were severely polluted

Yup the tragedy of the commons, the solution is private property as then the offending companies would be sued. E.G. train companies were often sued for damaging crops or even someone's clothing being damaged by embers coming from the train's coal engine

So the thousands of toxic waste dumps, mostly on private land owned by the polluters, fit into this vision how? Who do you sue about an abandoned toxic waste dump that belonged to a company that doesn't exist any more now polluting your well.

How do we make air private property? Who do we sue for toxins in the air we breath.

How do we make entire watersheds private property? Which upstream polluter do we sue if there are many?

You totally dodged the relevant question, as always. How does an individual hire lawyers to take on a huge multinational corporation. I'll be waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting. As always.

I didn't see any of your case law about burning ember case law from 100 years ago. Want to provide a link.

indigenous says

bob2356 says

Regulations are the law you dolt. The law lays out a principle. Regulations implement it. Mises didn't explain that to you?

Gees Bobby I didn't realize you were so emotional.

What color is the sky in your world?

As stated previously these agencies that pull the regulation out of their ass, are there to enhance their own interests at the expense of almost everyone else, that is the magic of government that you obsequiously enshrine.

Not all emotional. Just amazed that anyone could be so ignorant of the system of government they live under.

bob2356 says

How do we make air private property?

bob2356 says

How does an individual hire lawyers to take on a huge multinational corporation.

Yes who will build the roads blah blah

Here is one, didn't even have to go back a decade, is the Burlington Northern big enough for you?

http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/11/06/burlington-northern-railroad-settles-million-dollar-lawsuit-for-burning-homes/

bob2356 says

Not all emotional. Just amazed that anyone could be so ignorant of the system of government they live under.

Back at ya, amazed that anyone could be so ignorant of the VERY mechanism that drives the standard of living this country enjoys.

indigenous says

BTW any real advances come from technology.

It takes technology and gov orgs such as the DOE and EPA to make improvements. Alt energy companies are getting funding from the DOE to help take technology to market. Fuel standards such as CAFE are legislated. They create the market that drives product development as well as research. Technology eventually allows companies to achieve standards, but they would never develop the technology if the standards were not in place in the first place.

Holy shit!! You people are all MORONS. The EPA is protecting the environment!!!???

Let's ask the tribes along the Colorado River how that's working out for them...

YesYNot says

It takes technology and gov orgs such as the DOE and EPA to make improvements.

The fuck they do, they react and regulate, they can mandate whatever they want it doesn't make it so.YesYNot says

They create the market that drives product development as well as research. Technology eventually allows companies to achieve standards, but they would never develop the technology if the standards were not in place in the first place.

The fuck they do you have it exactly backwards.

Indig--

You're an idiot. No company would EVER spend a dime on new cleaner technology if it wasn't mandated by the EPA or similar government agency.

Companies exist for one reason--to make profit. If polluting is more profitable, they will pollute 100 times out of 100.

joeyjojojunior says

Companies exist for one reason--to make profit. If polluting is more profitable, they will pollute 100 times out of 100.

Spoken like a true Lefty. The customer tells the companies what to build with their spending. Government meddles this process

"Spoken like a true Lefty. The customer tells the companies what to build with their spending. Government meddles this process"

And how does that have anything to do with the fact that companies exist only to make profit?

joeyjojojunior says

You're an idiot. No company would EVER spend a dime on new cleaner technology if it wasn't mandated by the EPA or similar government agency.

Yeah, what an economic boon that's been. How many "green" companies where started and went under the past 8 years? How many had execs with direct ties to feds? Although that does lead perfectly into...
joeyjojojunior says

Companies exist for one reason--to make profit.

And they do, at our expense. Or did you think the government somehow earned that money they're giving away?

Tim Aurora says

All type of companies go under.

At the rate of 80% for the industry? Why not when the CEO is guaranteed to come out in the black thanks to our tax dollars.

Tim Aurora says

If you are not so worried about pollution try living next to a nuclear or a coal power plant.

Maybe you didn't see my picture of what the EPA does. Maybe YOU should go drink some of that kool.. er water.
NuttBoxer says

"Yeah, what an economic boon that's been. How many "green" companies where started and went under the past 8 years? How many had execs with direct ties to feds? Although that does lead perfectly into..."

Who cares? The issue of government funding of green initiatives is completely separate from the EPA.

"And they do, at our expense. Or did you think the government somehow earned that money they're giving away?"

What are you talking about? We're talking about the EPA--not government grants.

"Maybe you didn't see my picture of what the EPA does. Maybe YOU should go drink some of that kool.. er water"

Great--what actions did the EPA take to do that?

I'm assuming they issued a regulation requiring pollution of the river?

Let's get the cards on the table here. All of you support the EPA because your a bunch of fat lazy fucks, who want someone else to do their job of keeping the earth clean. Far be it from you to ever start a compost pile, recycle anything without being told to, or consume less.

Tim Aurora says

Remember the dot com boom. That was even the worse survival rate

Who was throwing the money into that? You aren't comparing apples with apples...

"Let's get the cards on the table here. All of you support the EPA because your a bunch of fat lazy fucks, who want someone else to do their job of keeping the earth clean. Far be it from you to ever start a compost pile, recycle anything without being told to, or consume less."

Yep. Let's do it. I want the EPA because I know that fat lazy fucks like you won't do jack shit because you'd rather earn an extra $0.50 instead of changing a process to become more environmentally friendly. And the only language you understand is $$ so we need a government agency with the ability to levy large fines.

joeyjojojunior says

Who cares? The issue of government funding of green initiatives is completely separate from the EPA.

Really, so the EPA exists on who's dime? If you can't make the connection between backdoor deals and government agencies, then you'll never understand why the EPA doesn't give a shit about pollution.

"Really, so the EPA exists on who's dime? If you can't make the connection between backdoor deals and government agencies, then you'll never understand why the EPA doesn't give a shit about pollution."

OK, educate me. Show me the backdoor deals that connect the EPA to the government funding from completely separate agencies.

joeyjojojunior says

Yep. Let's do it. I want the EPA because I know that fat lazy fucks like you won't do jack shit because you'd rather earn an extra $0.50 instead of changing a process to become more environmentally friendly. And the only language you understand is $$ so we need a government agency with the ability to levy large fines.

Instead of proving me wrong by stating how YOU protect the environment, you just parroted my post. I don't need the EPA to keep my yard clean, turn off my lights when I'm not using them, install energy saving bulbs, compost, eat organic, garden, pick up garbage around my house(even next to my property). But then again, I'm not a...
NuttBoxer says

fat lazy fuck

"Instead of proving me wrong by stating how YOU protect the environment, you just parroted my post. I don't need the EPA to keep my yard clean, turn off my lights when I'm not using them, install energy saving bulbs, compost, eat organic, garden, pick up garbage around my house(even next to my property). But then again, I'm not a..."

You think the EPA exists to keep your lawn clean?? What the hell is wrong with you??

You think they go around looking for Sanford and Son?

joeyjojojunior says

You think the EPA exists to keep your lawn clean?? What the hell is wrong with you??

You haven't responded back with a single thing that you do that shows you care about the environment, I've responded with multiple. You are the person I meant to insult in every post here, glad I drew your hypocritical, do nothing, wasteful ass.

JJJ the EPA exists to regulate the competition out of business and limit our land rights, they don't do shit else. Follow the money, or just look at the Colorado river again.
NuttBoxer says

"When is the last time a tree did you any favors?"

Ceffer says

"When is the last time a tree did you any favors?"

This morning when dropped a deuce

"You haven't responded back with a single thing that you do that shows you care about the environment, I've responded with multiple. You are the person I meant to insult in every post here, glad I drew your hypocritical, do nothing, wasteful ass."

Of course not, you idiot. Me composting isn't going to stop WR Grace from creating environmental wastelands. Or the Cuyahoga river from becoming flammable from pollution from industry. The EPA isn't about individuals. It's about corporations. How do you not know that???

"JJJ the EPA exists to regulate the competition out of business and limit our land rights, they don't do shit else. Follow the money, or just look at the Colorado river again."

So, how does the government benefit when companies go out of business? How is that in their best interest?

The EPA is exactly like the police force: it has power to enforce necessary laws and regulations, and it is made up of people who are often greedy, venal, corrupt, and avaricious. We don't abolish the police because a cop committed a crime or abuse of power, we appoint a regulatory agency to police the police. That's what is missing with the EPA, and that's how we fix (not abolish!) that agency.

indigenous says

bob2356 says

How does an individual hire lawyers to take on a huge multinational corporation.

Yes who will build the roads blah blah

Here is one, didn't even have to go back a decade, is the Burlington Northern big enough for you?

http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/11/06/burlington-northern-railroad-settles-million-dollar-lawsuit-for-burning-homes/

Maybe you should go read the case. The settlement was 23 families and 2 large corporations that were suing BN. Not exaclty a single individual taking on exxon, ge, or the koch bros.

No burlington northern isn't very big at all. The big multinationals could buy and sell BN out of petty cash.

"You are the person I meant to insult in every post here, glad I drew your hypocritical, do nothing, wasteful ass."

Just curious--why do you think this?

bob2356 says

Maybe you should go read the case. The settlement was 23 families and 2 large corporations that were suing BN. Not exaclty a single individual taking on exxon, ge, or the koch bros.

No burlington northern isn't very big at all. The big multinationals could buy and sell BN out of petty cash.

Class Actions is most likely the answer as with the Stringfellow Acid Pits.

Short of that just tort law or even small claims court.

Either way the law was used.

If this was done instead of useless agencies the taxpayer would save money.

Not to say that tort law does not need reform. Which would further enhance this very effective solution to the problem.

This is very interesting about how the bureaucracy is created and how it works. How the government is run by people nobody knows.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?414716-4/bureaucrat-kings

Quigley says

we appoint a regulatory agency to police the police. That's what is missing with the EPA, and that's how we fix (not abolish!) that agency.

Yes, how's that working out again...

joeyjojojunior says

Just curious--why do you think this?

Because I'm actively engaged in making my planet healthier, and you only get upset when someone who is doing your job for you is threatened with annihilation, leaving you on the hook to actually do something.

This is something I saw the other day that has a lot to do with this and it's pernicious nature.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?414716-4/bureaucrat-kings

joeyjojojunior says

So, how does the government benefit when companies go out of business? How is that in their best interest?

People from government regulatory agencies have a long history of being in bed with the biggest companies they are supposed to regulate. One back scratches the other, and fuck the government grants being wasted, because WE fund them. Again, government makes no goods, and sells no services that add value to society, economic or otherwise.

To that point the reason don't change it because we are only dealing with the tip of the iceberg in elections.

What doesn't change are the people within the regulatory agencies and the political staffers.