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marcus says

Like personalities repel one another. Some people just need to have someone or some group to hate.

I hate all groups that abuse human rights. So should you.

I hate incorrect generalizations, so should you.

Those people aren't going to behave better when you shun them from the economies of the world for decades and then centuries. That will make them stronger in their conviction that we are the evil ones. The number of moderate Muslims in secular countries needs to keep on increasing. As these people gain some degree of success and wealth it will eventually be seen as the smart path.

I'm not totally opposed to pressuring the moderate Muslims that this is partly their problem to solve. But at the same time the moderates need to grow.

This isn't rocket science. Either they change or eventually there is great war. Forcing the issue based on hate is not the answer. I'm surprised this isn't more obvious to you and so many others.

marcus says

I hate incorrect generalizations, so should you.

Those people aren't going to behave better when you shun them from the economies of the world for decades and then centuries. That will make them stronger in their conviction that we are the evil ones.

No it won't. If you want to end bad and barbaric practices, you have to speak out first.
We ended slavery because people spoke out and even risked their lives to end it.
We stopped burning witches because people spoke out against the practice.
Why do you think Islamic barbarism is any different?

Strategist says

Why do you think Islamic barbarism is any different?

I don't. In fact I think you're right. We ourselves changed slavery.

The Islamic world needs to reject Jihadism or Islamism or whatever you want to call it. Increasing the number of moderates (the internal force that will reject the crazy fundamentalism) is what I say is required. Did you read the rest of my comment you quoted ? When you hate someone simply for being Islamic, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution. Moderate Islam wsould be cultivated and helped to grow wherever possible.

I don't think what we did in Iraq helped much.

marcus says

Increasing the number of moderates (the internal force that will reject the crazy fundamentalism) is what I say is required.

Stop fighting Germany, stop bombing them. Just try to grow the number of moderates in the third Reich.

Radical Islamism started up in the 30s (and there's a history of Waves of Islamic Intolerance going back to the 800s AD). It's been getting stronger every decade. The Gulf States spend billions building madrassahs and Islamist Schools all over the world. You see burkas and chadors in places you never saw them 30-40 years ago.

That's why the first thing the Saudis wanted to do to "Help" Germany and Sweden with Refugees was to build Mosques and Madrassahs.

Really ? I'll leave the argument with that absurdity to you. You know better. Hint: Fundamentalist Islam isn't a nation state we are at war with. But fundamentalist Islam wants us to be at war with Islam. They know that they win in that case.

marcus says

Strategist says

Why do you think Islamic barbarism is any different?

I don't. In fact I think you're right. We ourselves changed slavery.

The Islamic world needs to reject Jihadism or Islamism or whatever you want to call it. Increasing the number of moderates (the internal force that will reject the crazy fundamentalism) is what I say is required. When you hate someone simply for being Islamic, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I agree we need more moderate Muslims. Forcefully speaking out against sharia laws is one way of convincing them to become moderates.
You think they will evolve into becoming moderates? Hasn't happened in the last 1,400 years.

People who migrate to the West are MORE likely to be radicalized than those that live in the Middle East. Especially the 2nd Generation.

I think cultivating moderate Islamic populations in Europe and the U.S. will help a lot. That's what I'm talking about. The Islamophobia that you preach makes that impossible.

Strategist says

Hasn't happened in the last 1,400 years.

Unlike another major religion, that has became very much so more moderate in the past few hundred years.

Many Modern Materialist Liberals can't get their hands around TRUE alternative forms of living that involve more than sexual proclivities.

Like the Italian Chick that got raped hitchhiking for peace through the mideast - before she left the first country she started in.

marcus says

Fundamentalist Islam isn't a nation state we are at war with. But fundamentalist Islam wants us to be at war with Islam. They know that they win in that case.

We are at war with fundamentalist Islam, just like the rest of the world including moderate Muslims.

Rashomon says

And I've had conversations about religion and no-one has reported me to the non-existent religious police when I mentioned I was atheist.

If they don't have religious police, then that narrows down the list to only a subset of Muslim countries. How about vigilante Sharia Patrols?

Anyway, secret confession without providing evidence doesn't show much courage on your part. Can you buy Dawkins or Hitchens books in the country where you live? Try buying one, get your fingerprints on it, and give it to one of your Muslim "friends". See how they handle physical evidence.

marcus says

I think cultivating moderate Islamic populations in Europe and the U.S. will help a lot. That's what I'm talking about. The Islamophobia that you preach makes that impossible.

So what's your plan to create moderate Muslims. It obviously does not include speaking out.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

People who migrate to the West are MORE likely to be radicalized than those that live in the Middle East. Especially the 2nd Generation.

Total bullshit example of statistics lying. If it doesn't happen at all in some Islamic countries and it happens 3 times in England, I guess it's infinitely more likely for migrants to be radicalized. So ?

curious2 says

Anyway, secret confession without providing evidence doesn't show much courage on your part. Can you buy Dawkins or Hitchens books in the country where you live? Try buying one, get your fingerprints on it, and give it to one of your Muslim "friends". See how they handle physical evidence.

Ha ha. He will come back in two body bags. One for the head.

Strategist says

So what's your plan to create moderate Muslims. It obviously does not include speaking out.

I'm fine with speaking out intelligently in was that promote the goal. But not in ways that promote the goal of mutual hate. My plan would be to try not to ostracize all American Muslims or treat them all as if they are evil.

Strategist says

How nice would they be to me if:

I told them I was an atheist.

Mohammad was a child rapist.

Stoning a woman to death was for barbarians.

Is that what you call speaking out in a productive way ? Or is it just Trumpeter virtue signaling. Some twisted new form of political correctness inside of your political group ?

marcus says

Strategist says

So what's your plan to create moderate Muslims. It obviously does not include speaking out.

I'm fine with speaking out intelligently in was that promote the goal. But not in ways that promote the goal of mutual hate. My plan would be to try not to ostracize all American Muslims or treat them all as if they are evil.

You must treat their beliefs as evil. You will not convince them otherwise.
We did not end slavery without calling it evil, being PC, or being nice to them.

PeopleUnited says

Defend Islam

There has never been an Islamic terrorist. After all, the Quran says to love they neighbor, so any terrorist is no true Scottsman, er, Muslim. Yeah, that's the ticket. If that excuse works for Christianity, it works for Islam.

Strategist says

How nice would they be to me if:

I told them I was an atheist.

Mohammad was a child rapist.

Stoning a woman to death was for barbarians.

1. They haven't cared so far...
2. I don't think they'd appreciate it.
3. I expect they'd agree.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Stop fighting Germany, stop bombing them. Just try to grow the number of moderates in the third Reich.

Lol, perfect analogy!

marcus says

Fundamentalist Islam isn't a nation state we are at war with. But fundamentalist Islam wants us to be at war with Islam.

Actually, Fundamentalist Islam does think of itself as a nation state. It's the "ummah".

And like it or not, it has already declared religious war on the rest of the world.

curious2 says

Anyway, secret confession without providing evidence doesn't show much courage on your part. Can you buy Dawkins or Hitchens books in the country where you live? Try buying one, get your fingerprints on it, and give it to one of your Muslim "friends". See how they handle physical evidence.

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean, 'secret confession.'
And we live in the age of the internet. Anyone can get hold of those books simply by going to Amazon. I have Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris on my Kindle. Nothing stopping others from doing the same if they so wish.

rando says

Lol, perfect analogy!

Lol, indeed.

rando says

And like it or not, it has already declared religious war on the rest of the world.

That doesn't change the fact that it's it's going to take Islam to change Islam, which is why that's an extremely stupid analogy. But I think on some level you know your wrong.

Was it going to take Naziism to change Naziism?

I'm sure lots of Nazis were very nice people too.

marcus says

rando says

And like it or not, it has already declared religious war on the rest of the world.

That doesn't change the fact that it's it's going to take Islam to change Islam

We can't wait hundreds or thousands of years for them to change when they already have nuclear weapons.
We must control them, until we destroy them. Our lives are more important than their sick ideology.
The greatest threat we face within us are those who share your bizarre PC beliefs.

rando says

Was it going to take Naziism to change Naziism?

Again, such a stupid comparison. Not calling you stupid, just your point. Nazism ended. IT didn't evolve. You think anyone is going to end Islam without a lot of centuries going by first ? You make my argument for me. Islam obviously has to evolve. Fundamentalists don't suddenly become atheists. They or their children have to first become moderates, maybe later generations become atheists. Look at Christianity. Many people agree that Islam is where Christianity was many centuries ago. and Christianity is still here, and unfortunately the fundamentalist part has been growing, as people leave the more sophisticated and moderate versions, which is distressing, but I digress.

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/islams-time-tested-weapon-testosterone/

Muhammad could not allow a female’s allure to distract males from their role as warriors for Islam. The solution involved sought to prevent it while still satisfying the warrior’s testosteronic needs.

This demanded Muslim males not view Muslim women as equals. For this reason, women were made subservient to them. The wife’s obligation was to meet the husband’s sexual demands, as well as to field a future warrior army. To diffuse any one female’s allure, Allah allowed males multiple wives.

Undoubtedly, the rationale for multiple wives was a belief the more mares available in the husband’s marital stable, the less clingy he would become to one in particular. Enjoying each, husbands, unburdened by familial ties, were less likely to be distracted from their warrior role. This prompted Muhammad to equate Muslim wives to domestic animals. As the highly revered 13th century Islamic scholar al-Qurtubi noted, Muhammad’s teachings likened a woman “to a sheep—even a cow or a camel—for all are ridden.”

Strategist says

The greatest threat we face within us are those who share your bizarre PC beliefs.

MY beliefs are based on logic and non-emotion far more than yours. Your beliefs sound a lot like hate to me.

marcus says

Strategist says

The greatest threat we face within us are those who share your bizarre PC beliefs.

MY beliefs are based on logic and non-emotion far more than yours. Your beliefs sound a lot like hate to me.

They are hate. Hate to Islam.
Why does your beliefs sound like love to Islam?

Strategist says

Why does your beliefs sound like love to Islam?

Because you're lying. Not hating is not the same as loving, except in the, love thy neighbor, brotherly love, sense of the word.

marcus says

Strategist says

Why does your beliefs sound like love to Islam?

Because you're lying. Not hating is not the same as loving, except in the love thy neighbor brotherly love sense of the word.

So you do not hate the sharia laws, and Islamic pedophilia. Disgusting, isn't it?

marcus says

"I would be interested in arguments for the merits of...." blah blah blah.
Red herring.

Look Marcus I really want to know the defense of Islam. What are the merits of Islam and why would anyone be better off to have more Moslems in their town or neighborhood.

It's not a red herring at all. America is about freedom, including freedom of religion. The whole point is that we don't have to approve, endorse or defend the beliefs of someone we allow in to America. That freedom is what always made America great.

PeopleUnited says

why would anyone be better off to have more Moslems in their town or neighborhood

Why would people be better off to have arrogant right wingers in their neighborhood ? Or Italians ? Or Catholics, OR Jews, Or WASPS ? If you're asking the question, then there's something intrinsic to America that you don't get.

Rashomon says

curious2 says

Anyway, secret confession without providing evidence doesn't show much courage on your part. Can you buy Dawkins or Hitchens books in the country where you live? Try buying one, get your fingerprints on it, and give it to one of your Muslim "friends". See how they handle physical evidence.

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean, 'secret confession.'

And we live in the age of the internet. Anyone can get hold of those books simply by going to Amazon. I have Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris on my Kindle. Nothing stopping others from doing the same if they so wish.

It means you told someone privately, secretly, and with deniability.

Do they have bookstores and libraries in the country that you serve? If so, do they have Dawkins and Hitchens on the shelves? You can probably find a Koran in almost every house, and locally for sale. Why not be brave and generous and buy a printed copy of a Dawkins or Hitchens book? Books make excellent gifts. Why are you so afraid to test the claims you make about your Muslim "friends"? If you don't feel safe, if you wouldn't bet your life on what you say, then you can't expect other people to bet their own lives and the lives of their families.

Islam says what it says, and in most countries that have Muslim majorities, most Muslims demand Sharia. That would require executing you. Maybe you can fool yourself with your "no true Scotsman" fallacy, pretending that "no true Muslim" would do to you what Islam says to do to you, but you don't fool anyone other than yourself.

The OP asks who would think it is a good thing for more Muslims living in a neighborhood. To me, that's not the right question. The first question is should we legislate actions or ideas. We have always legislated actions and allowed freedom of speech and religion. We ought to treat people as people and legislate actions, regardless of religion.

https://patrick.net/1303440/2017-02-27-free-speech-freedom-of-religion-and-freedom-of-the-press-in-today-s-world

As far as immigration is concerned, we are somewhat vulnerable in a democracy to being overrun by people with vastly different viewpoints. OTOH, Muslims represent such a small percentage of our country, that letting small amounts of Muslims immigrate is not a threat for voting purposes. If the Republican party starts a war against Islam, then of course, they will want to limit Muslim immigration to help win elections at the margins. I like Persian food, so having a few enterprising Iranians is a great benefit IMO, which is realized in most major cities in the US.

curious2 says

It means you told someone privately, secretly, and with deniability.

Good grief, there isn't some kind of religious contract you have to sign before being allowed into the country.

curious2 says

Do they have bookstores and libraries in the country that you serve?

You mean the country I work in. Yes, they have bookstores. And yes, things are censored, which is almost irrelevant in this day and age when what you can't get by actually leaving the house, you can get by turning on your computer.

curious2 says

Why not be brave and generous and buy a printed copy of a Dawkins or Hitchens book? Books make excellent gifts. Why are you so afraid to test the claims you make about your Muslim "friends"?

Sigh. Just as I wouldn't buy a Christian a book on atheism in the UK or US, I wouldn't buy one for my Muslim friends either. They don't try and convert me to Islam. I don't argue with them simply for being Muslim. I couldn't think of anything more pointless to do.

curious2 says

Islam in most countries that have Muslim majorities, most Muslims demand Sharia. That would require executing you.

I suspect you have little real understanding of what Sharia is let alone how it is actually implemented (or not) around the Muslim world. And of course some Muslims are very anti non-believers and atheists. Others aren't. There are also plenty of Americans who are hostile towards atheists - just look at how few of your politicians are willing to admit they're atheists.

Actually The original question is what are the merits of Islam? I would like to hear the defense of Islam. It is an honest question and if it can't be defended it begs the second question as to whether a neighborhood or town is better with or without Islam. So far there has been no true defense of Islam on this thread. Put it another way, how is Islam good for non-Muslims? When we as non-Moslims do the math is Islam a net positive for us or a net negative? YesYNot says

The OP asks who would think it is a good thing for more Muslims living in a neighborhood. To me, that's not the right question. The first question is should we legislate actions or ideas. We have always legislated actions and allowed freedom of speech and religion. We ought to treat people as people and legislate actions, regardless of religion.

https://patrick.net/1303440/2017-02-27-free-speech-freedom-of-religion-and-freedom-of-the-press-in-today-s-world

As far as immigration is concerned, we are somewhat vulnerable in a democracy to being overrun by people with vastly different viewpoints. OTOH, Muslims represent such a small percentage of our country, that letting small amounts of Muslims immigrate is not a threat for voting purposes. If the Republican party starts a war against Islam, then of course, they will want to limit Muslim ...

YesYNot says

Muslims represent such a small percentage of our country, that letting small amounts of Muslims immigrate is not a threat for voting purposes

But cause the majority of fatalities from terrorism, even though they are less than 2% of the entire population, more than ALL other causes combined. And hundreds, if not thousands, volunteered for ISIS.

Once you reach a certain portion - sociologists suggest over 15% - in an area, or worse, a country, Muslims get rambunctious about taking over and moving the place into the Dar al-Islam with the original residents becoming second class citizens over time. True to tradition, this isn't done by law but by things like Sharia Patrols and attacks on girls who don't conform to dress code and men who have beers in public. Many Muslims believe Welfare is their Jizya.

In any case a welfare state is not compatible with mass immigration.

PeopleUnited says

Actually The original question is what are the merits of Islam? I would like to hear the defense of Islam. It is an honest question and if it can't be defended it begs the second question as to whether a neighborhood or town is better with or without Islam. So far there has been no true defense of Islam on this thread. Put it another way, how is Islam good for non-Muslims? When we as non-Moslims do the math is Islam a net positive for us or a net negative?

The truth is Islam is not defendable. There is nothing good about Islam that you can't get elsewhere, but there are loads of bad things only Islam can provide.
That makes Islam 100% useless.