patrick.net

Marcus said: "I agree that Islamists and raicdal fundamentalist Muslims are a big problem. I just disagree about the solution. I don't claim to be a world class chess player, but I like games and understand some game theory. That's my perspective. I don't see that aggression or hate will be helpful right now, other than surgical strikes from our end aimed at terrorists, with the objective of terrorizing specific terrorists. That's taking their game to them. Where as blaming all of Islam, is actually what the terrorists want."

Marcus, I am glad that you are willing to share your belief that Islamic and radical Moslims are a big problem.

However I have not proposed a solution. We must recognize a problem before we can begin to solve it. I started this thread to promote a discussion of Islam as a net positive or net negative influence in America and by extrapolation the world. I don't have all the answers either but I think it is time to develop some before it is too late and the liberty we enjoy as free people is eroded away.

As far as what the terrorists want, I think it is clear. The Islamic terrorists are willing to die in order to achieve their end goal which is to either murder or convert to Islam every human being on the planet.

What I won't do that you will is generalize the worst attributes of terrorists on to Islamic folk in general.

PeopleUnited says

They are willing to die in order to achieve their end goal which is to either murder or convert to Islam every human being on the planet.

But they are a small segment of the Islamic world. And their existence is threatened more every time they act. Our battle needs to be directed towards terrorists, not towards the Islamic world in general. The latter is what the terrorists want.

marcus says

What I won't do that you will is generalize the worst attributes of terrorists on to Islamic folk in general.

PeopleUnited says

Islamic terrorists are willing to die in order to achieve their end goal which is to either murder or convert to Islam every human being on the planet.

But they are a small segment of the Islamic world. And their existence is threatened more every time they act. Our battle needs to be directed towards terrorists, not towards the Islamic world in general. The latter is what the terrorists want.

I disagree, what Islamic terrorists want is to kill or convert every human being on the planet and to bring every nation under their dominion.

I also disagree that their existence is threatened the more they act. Quite the opposite, the terrorist movement is growing because it is glamorizing terror, actively recruiting more terrorists, and every action taken to kill terrorists is used by terrorists to recruit more terrorists from the vast reservoir of Islamic youth around the world who are ripe for radicalization.

PeopleUnited says

I disagree, what Islamic terrorists want is to kill or convert every human being on the planet and to bring every nation under their dominion.

Marcus's point is that there is much benefit to Islamic terrorist movements in the US portraying the conflict as Islam vs the West/Christianity/America. Example : Iran's moderates are finding they are agreeing with their current theocratic hardliners over their common dislike of Trump. That's NOT good, and that dynamic is taking place on other levels across the entire Islamic world, especially for those in the terrorism business.

PeopleUnited says

the terrorist movement is growing because it is glamorizing terror, actively recruiting more terrorists, and every action taken to kill terrorists is used by terrorists to recruit more terrorists from the vast reservoir of Islamic youth around the world who are ripe for radicalization.

But the things that make them susceptible to committing terrorism/violence, are no different than youth susceptible to gang recruitment or any other radical movement affiliation. It's not uniquely Muslim or Islam. It is human.

When Trump/our government start commenting on the threat of our own American domestic terrorism along with the current focus on Islamic terrorism/ISIS, I'll believe they actually care about terrorism as a whole. Until then, Islamic terrorism is a rallying cry and political talking point for them.

Rew, I appreciate your perspective. I understand the arguments.

However from my perspective the portrayal of Islam vs. the free world is potentially the most accurate way to describe the goal of radical Islamic terrorists and the quasi nation of ISIS. Do you have a better way to describe the goal of ISIS and other Islamic terrorists?

rando says

Lol, perfect analogy!

Except for the fact that Germany was a militarized nation state, with the most advanced military capabilities in the world at the time (far eclipsing any IS movement), they had a massive Navy, and their entire national population with other nation state allies in support of the effort ... sure ... perfect analogy. (You could combine all Islamic terror groups today, into some 'super cell' and they still wouldn't reach a WWI or WWII German capability and economic power.)

Islam is not some uniform practice uniting all muslims across the globe in an identity powerful enough to be something like the Nazis were. At least not yet. If we try and exterminate Islam, wholesale, the counter reaction may be far more unifying than we expect.

What happened to that whole, let Milo speak, debate will win out, attitude?

What appears to actually be fast becoming a nation of radical ideology, with the most advanced military capabilities in the world, unified by nationalism, and a vilification of 'others' ... all sparked by economic hardship ... gosh, good thing there are no examples like that today.

PeopleUnited says

However from my perspective the portrayal of Islam vs. the free world is potentially the most accurate way to describe the goal of radical Islamic terrorists and the quasi nation of ISIS. Do you have a better way to describe the goal of ISIS and other Islamic terrorists?

They want a large radical caliphate practicing a very narrow and warped version of fundamentalist Islam. Many are just after power and money: such common human motivators.
Yes, they very much like the Islam vs the world narrative. Plays right to their strengths. Nothing swells the ranks like a tough talking enemy, except maybe one shooting.

I disagree with the "Defend Islam" phrasing of your OP title, and what I perceive as your propensity to characterize IS as being the common Islamic practice, and by extension the desire of IS then applies to all Muslims worldwide. It doesn't.

Edit: and as to the motivations of the IS teenage grunt ... energy drinks, porn/women, trucks, belonging to a group, a purpose. Essentially almost zero difference than any other young military enlistee anywhere in the world. Crazy talk, right?!

I just don't know how warped this version of Islam is? The terrorists believe that their religion is true Islam. The terrorists have radicalized Islamic youth. What is the net benefit of Islam in this scenario?

PeopleUnited says

Marcus said: "I agree that Islamists and raicdal fundamentalist Muslims are a big problem. I just disagree about the solution. I don't claim to be a world class chess player, but I like games and understand some game theory. That's my perspective. I don't see that aggression or hate will be helpful right now, other than surgical strikes from our end aimed at terrorists, with the objective of terrorizing specific terrorists. That's taking their game to them. Where as blaming all of Islam, is actually what the terrorists want."

Marcus, I am glad that you are willing to share your belief that Islamic and radical Moslims are a big problem.

However I have not proposed a solution. We must recognize a problem before we can begin to solve it.

Marcus's solution to Islamic terrorism is simple.......Do nothing.

Rew says

Edit: and as to the motivations of the IS teenage grunt ... energy drinks, porn/women, trucks, belonging to a group, a purpose. Essentially almost zero difference than any other young military enlistee anywhere in the world. Crazy talk, right?!

Wrong. Only Islam can convince perfectly normal humans into being suicide bombers.

Strategist says

Wrong. Only Islam can convince perfectly normal humans into being suicide bombers.

Christianity has had many martyrs in its history. It brainwashes just as well.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Wrong. Only Islam can convince perfectly normal humans into being suicide bombers.

Christianity has had many martyrs in its history. It brainwashes just as well.

Will someone please drag Dan out of the Middle Ages?
Thank You

marcus says

I don't see that aggression or hate will be helpful

I wonder how many Muslims have that attitude?

Strategist says

Will someone please drag Dan out of the Middle Ages?

History matters. Trying to reform Christianity is like trying to reform Nazism. It's doomed to fail because it's a fundamentally bad movement, and it's pointless anyway as the institution is not at all necessary or beneficial.

But hey, ignore history if you want. You'll just repeat its lessons.

marcus says

They or their children have to first become moderates, maybe later generations become atheists

Except ghettoization ensures that this won't happen, although, if it was likely to be successful anywhere, US is best option, assuming NO ghettoization.

It is failing in Europe and has mostly failed in India, the country with second largest Muslim population in the world.

Having said that, others should bear more responsibility for refugees, specifically oil rich monarchies of Middle East

Strategist says

Marcus's solution to Islamic terrorism is simple.......Do nothing.

I wish he showed such indifference to h1-b workers coming from India to teach stem subjects in high school

Marcus mantra: globalization good as long as he's not affected

Rashomon says

And yes, things are censored, which is almost irrelevant in this day and age when what you can't get by actually leaving the house, you can get by turning on your computer.

As Turtledove pointed out in an earlier thread about dress codes, "Rashomon" is happy with government censorship and dress codes as long as they're Islamic. That isn't liberal at all, it's the opposite. And, with "Rashomon", turnabout is never fair play: westerners mustn't ever stand up for or enforce what they believe in, only Muslims are ever allowed to do that.

The similarities between Islamic and Nazi ideologies motivated 100,000 European Muslims to join the Nazi SS, at the behest of leading Muslims and Nazis who emphasized how similar they were, so it's appropriate to illustrate using substitution. For example, marcus repeats endlessly that we mustn't criticize Nazi doctrine or the Nazis' Fuhrer Prophet, and we mustn't fight back no matter how many Muslims kill in the name of their Fuhrer Prophet, lest resistance unite more of the Nazis against us. Rew claims that the Wermacht are not true Nazis, because there are some Nazis who haven't joined the Wehrmacht, even though the Wehrmacht quote their Fuhrer before and after every mission. Rashomon says he has lived among Nazis and they make nice neighbors, so we should all simply submit without talking back. Looking at the history and present facts, some of the appeasement comments above sound absurd.

If I may paraphrase the questions posed by marcus earlier, what are the advantages of having more Nazis or KKKlansmen (who also have very similar beliefs) living in your neighborhood? Should you willingly pay more than $100k per Nazi or KKKlansman to import them, as we've been doing with Muslims? Bonus question: if you're so lonely that you'd pay to import neighbors from other countries, why deport Christians from south of the border?

Dan8267 says

But hey, ignore history if you want. You'll just repeat its lessons.

Practice what you preach. When are you gonna learn Islamic history? Every country they have populated has become Islamic over time. Every one of them with no fucking exception.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

But hey, ignore history if you want. You'll just repeat its lessons.

Practice what you preach. When are you gonna learn Islamic history? Every country they have populated has become Islamic over time. Every one of them with no fucking exception.

Honey, I have never said that Islam is good or should be tolerated. Are you incapable of understanding other people's posts?

My argument, which no one has been able to refute is that
1. Christianity is also bad and for pretty much the exact same reasons.
2. Although Christianity is a lesser ever today, it's still an evil and there's no reason to tolerate it.
3. Christianity is only a lesser evil today because it's been weakened by atheism, agnosticism, and secularism.
4. Christianity allows for irrationality in the world which makes it easier for the irrationality of Islam to take root.
5. The way to defeat Islam is therefore not with another irrational false religion, but with a strong stance against all religions and superstitious lies.

Go ahead and attack my actual arguments if you dare. You will lose. The ground is too easy to defend.

P.S. I mentioned above a comment that Turtledove had posted, but since she is unfortunately no longer available to confirm the accuracy of my memory, I will copy and paste her comment in full:

turtledove says

Rashomon says

Eh?

The point is that you obviously are okay with mandated dress. Just as long as the Muslims are mandating it. When the French ban not wearing it, I'm guessing you find that upsetting. Which is inconsistent. You either think it's okay to make those kinds of rules or you don't. The where and what shouldn't matter.

I would have updated my original comment with the link but the comment limit is shorter for editing than for posting, so I am posting the link separately.

Dan8267 says

3. Christianity is only a lesser evil today because it's been weakened by atheism, agnosticism, and secularism.

Good. We have made tremendous inroads towards the goal of ending Christianity. Now it's time to destroy the mother of all evil - Islam.
If we destroy Christianity, the Islamists won't say..."Look, Christianity is destroyed, lets stop terrorism" What a ridiculous thought.
We need to save our bullets for Islam, and we need to destroy Islam by joining hands with all religions. Dan, you are becoming a liability to us, and an asset to the Islamists. Get out of the way.

curious2 says

The similarities between Islamic and Nazi ideologies motivated 100,000 European Muslims to join the Nazi SS, at the behest of leading Muslims and Nazis who emphasized how similar they were

You mean similar with respect to their hate for Jews ?

Strategist says

Good. We have made tremendous inroads towards the goal of ending Christianity. Now it's time to destroy the mother of all evil - Islam.

The only way to destroy Islam is to destroy Christianity. As long as Bronze Age myths dominate our discussion of morality, ethics, and the meaning of life, there will be room for Islam to fester. The only solution to Islam is one that undermines all religions, the consistent and universal application of rationality, the scientific method, and rigorous mathematics to all subjects including morality, mortality, the creation of the universe, ethics, relations, and the meaning of life.

A generation raised in a rational world where all irrationality is demeaned is a generation that will not embrace any religion. Ultimately children do what they learn gains them social acceptance, and they reject anything that diminishes their social status. When religion is associated with low status, children will become adults who want nothing to do with religion. This is why defending or promoting Christianity ultimately helps Islam.

Dan8267 says

Ultimately children do what they learn gains them social acceptance, and they reject anything that diminishes their social status.

And when your civilization is invaded by hordes of Muslims, social norms change quickly as well, driving social change. Children who believe in nothing are the easiest targets for any sort of propaganda or social pressure. This has been proved over and over throughout history. For modern day reference, examine North Korea and its brainwashed population of atheists who nevertheless believe their Dear Leader is some kind of divine being.

Strategist says

Dan, you are becoming a liability to us, and an asset to the Islamists. Get out of the way.

I wonder if recent converts to ISIS have had his same perspective? An intractable, virulent, unreasoning hatred of their own culture and country and willful ignorance of its history?

Quigley says

And when your civilization is invaded by hordes of Muslims, social norms change quickly as well, driving social change.

If "my" civilization does not tolerate any religion, what makes you think it would tolerate Islam? A complete rejection of religion is a far better way to keep yourself safe from Islam than embracing Christianity, another false religion of Abraham.

Quigley says

For modern day reference, examine North Korea and its brainwashed population of atheists who nevertheless believe their Dear Leader is some kind of divine being.

By definition, they would not be atheists if they believe their leader is "some kind of diving being". A society that tolerates religion, supernatural beliefs, and irrationality is far more prone to the abuse you describe than rational society based on evidence, reasoning, and science. Tell me honestly, would you call North Korea a rational society?

P N Dr Lo R says

[stupid comment limit]

I wonder if recent converts to ISIS have had his same perspective? An intractable, virulent, unreasoning hatred of their own culture and country and willful ignorance of its history?

This is a straw man argument.
1. Christianity is not my culture.
2. Christianity is not American culture, no matter how much you'd like to establish a theocracy.
3. Christianity is mutually exclusive with the principles of western civilization upon which America is based. This includes the principle of secularism.
4. It is you, not I, who engages in willful ignorance. The mere acceptance of a god or afterlife requires willful ignorance.

Every day item 3 is demonstrated by Christians corrupting the government to push their religious beliefs from abortion to sex laws to torturing infidels (today called terrorists).

marcus says

curious2 says

The similarities between Islamic and Nazi ideologies motivated 100,000 European Muslims to join the Nazi SS, at the behest of leading Muslims and Nazis who emphasized how similar they were

You mean similar with respect to their hate for Jews ?

That was only one of several hatreds that Muslims and Nazis shared. They hated also liberals, freethinkers, communists, gay men and lesbians, and secular schools, among other targets. Also, Muslims and Nazis shared a doctrinal belief in global violence including terror. The Nazis fell and their ideology was mostly repudiated, but the Muslims persist. Islam continues to be defended and empowered and financed even by some people who don't believe it, but who elect divide&misrule politicians corrupted by Petrodollar baksheesh and tempted by the inherent divisiveness of Islam, expressly using Islamic terrorism as an argument to increase mass surveillance on behalf of their corporate/MIC sponsors.

PeopleUnited says

I just don't know how warped this version of Islam is?

That's a problem. You should probably learn some more and decide whether you believe the fringe minority radical Islamic practice is warped or true Islam.

There are likely great world religion, or even 'Understanding Islam' type specific classes in local colleges around you.

For American Muslims it's pretty clear how they feel. Mosques are beyond common across the entire country, and I'll bet you know someone today who you actually didn't know is a Muslim (or comes from a Muslim upbringing). You could also learn directly from these types of sources.

There are also Christian-centric sources and slants for understating Islam ...
https://encounteringislam.org/course

... but I'd personally opt for the more secular/collegiate or direct approaches.

PeopleUnited says

The terrorists believe that their religion is true Islam.

Some/most do. Also, some believe it is just a convenient powerful motivator, a unifier of a tribe, and a powerful force able to make a human kill. It's something they can exploit to build 'an army' able to carry out an agenda for political gain.

PeopleUnited says

The terrorists have radicalized Islamic youth. What is the net benefit of Islam in this scenario?

In the void left by disenfranchisement and hopelessness a version of radical Islam is a calling, a purpose, a belonging, and of great benefit to the practitioner. I'm not arguing this is of actual benefit and merit to Humanity, or 'the world', or even a net long term benefit to the radicalized. I'm simply stating motivations of those that join a radical's cause. Obviously, it can be wrapped up in nationalism too. It's an identity and group belonging.

PeopleUnited says

I would be interested in arguments for the merits of Islam and/or why any non-Moslem would consider it a good thing if more Moslems lived in their town or neighborhood.

Is it of greater value to have Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Jains, Muggles, Blacks, Whites, Browns, Yellows, or Purples?

I've known good, 'bad', and in between families of most of those persuasions above. I've typically found people's religion is the least influential characteristic in how they approach me as neighbor, friend, or co-wroker as well.

If ISIS is a fringe version of Islam, why do OIC need to issue Cairo Universal Declaration on Human Rights, where ultimately every article is subject to Islamic Shania Law? If there is contradiction between the two, Sharia Law reigns supreme.

Gade says

If ISIS is a fringe version of Islam, why do OIC need to issue Cairo Universal Declaration on Human Rights, where ultimately every article is subject to Islamic Shania Law? If there is contradiction between the two, Sharia Law reigns supreme.

A religion is only as good as it's worst practices. That makes Islam rotten as hell. There inso such thing as a good Islam.

PeopleUnited says

As far as what the terrorists want, I think it is clear. The Islamic terrorists are willing to die in order to achieve their end goal which is to either murder or convert to Islam every human being on the planet.

Of course.

UNLIKE Christianity or Judaism, total Global conversion to Islam is a requirement for Paradise on Earth to arrive.

MMR says

I wish he showed such indifference to h1-b workers coming from India to teach stem subjects in high school

Marcus mantra: globalization good as long as he's not affected

Yep. I can't think of reason why if globalization is good for STEM, it should be great for Public School Educators. Competition & lower wages, lower property taxes, win-win!

Not just test-piloted in a few Ghetto Schools, but for Well Off Suburban School Districts.

Our kids need the strength of diversity and global competition only H1-B teachers can provide them! Tenure is doing a good job or no Work Visa renewal!

Strategist says

Every country they have populated has become Islamic over time.

Every country except India and even there, a disproportionate number of ghettoized troublemakers persist; also, they are permitted to practice a limited form of sharia with regard to polygamy

But Pakistan and Bangladesh opposite with regard to ethnic/religious cleansing

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Not just test-piloted in a few Ghetto Schools, but for Well Off Suburban School Districts.

Almost exactly the case in Atlanta metro area; but then again, there are only a handful of highly rated public schools even in nice neighborhoods.

Rew says

I've typically found people's religion is the least influential characteristic in how they approach me as neighbor, friend, or co-wroker as well.

Very true in India amongst muslims who live among other groups, but usually untrue amongst those living in ghettoized settlements

The OP's question in summary is, "Think of the bad things you think of in your Islamo-stereotypes. Now picture those bad stereotypical people living next door. Are you happy?"
I've known great Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians and have lived by all of them. The question isn't a serious one.

Tactically, the assault on Islam is equally poorly conceptualized. We don't kill ideas or beliefs with military assault, and we encourage more of each when we are antagonistic.

If a small percentage of the what, 1.6 billion Muslims? are radicalized that's a problem. I fail to see how converting the other 1-1.5 billion to the radical side will be good for anyone.

Encourage the good ones to work on the bad ones is the only thing that works. Radical abortion bombers have not been solved in this country, have they? How do we keep those assholes in check? Especially since I think it's quite easy to see how they make the connection between their murders and heroic acts of Christianity, isn't it?

CL says

If a small percentage of the what, 1.6 billion Muslims? are radicalized that's a problem.

Not true.

First of all, not a small percentage.

Second of all, any percentage of 1 billion people (not 1.6 billion) is still a large number.

Like a Paki friend tried to reassure me "It's only 20 or 30% that are really serious about sharia."

rando says

Second of all, any percentage of 1 billion people (not 1.6 billion) is still a large number.

I agree. So how are we helped by adding another billion or more to the naughty list?