patrick.net

Rew says

I've typically found people's religion is the least influential characteristic in how they approach me as neighbor, friend, or co-wroker as well.

Very true in India amongst muslims who live among other groups, but usually untrue amongst those living in ghettoized settlements

The OP's question in summary is, "Think of the bad things you think of in your Islamo-stereotypes. Now picture those bad stereotypical people living next door. Are you happy?"
I've known great Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians and have lived by all of them. The question isn't a serious one.

Tactically, the assault on Islam is equally poorly conceptualized. We don't kill ideas or beliefs with military assault, and we encourage more of each when we are antagonistic.

If a small percentage of the what, 1.6 billion Muslims? are radicalized that's a problem. I fail to see how converting the other 1-1.5 billion to the radical side will be good for anyone.

Encourage the good ones to work on the bad ones is the only thing that works. Radical abortion bombers have not been solved in this country, have they? How do we keep those assholes in check? Especially since I think it's quite easy to see how they make the connection between their murders and heroic acts of Christianity, isn't it?

CL says

If a small percentage of the what, 1.6 billion Muslims? are radicalized that's a problem.

Not true.

First of all, not a small percentage.

Second of all, any percentage of 1 billion people (not 1.6 billion) is still a large number.

Like a Paki friend tried to reassure me "It's only 20 or 30% that are really serious about sharia."

rando says

Second of all, any percentage of 1 billion people (not 1.6 billion) is still a large number.

I agree. So how are we helped by adding another billion or more to the naughty list?

CL says

how are we helped by adding another billion or more to the naughty list?

We are directly helped by lowering the number of people within the country who explicitly hold an ideology which explicitly instructs them to kill nonbelievers, take over, destroy our current government, and impose medieval laws.

Islam is the very opposite of all Western and American values. People may have the right to practice it (except for its inherent violence and other aspects with obviously violate our laws), but we also have the right to limit the number we accept.

We banned Communists from entry for many years. Islam is much much worse than Communism as a threat to democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, women's rights, gay rights, and the rights of anyone who does not submit.

Is it safe to say that the internment camps are not regrettable acts of bigoted "guilt by association" according to the anti-Islamic wing of Patnet?

And do you anti-Islamic jihadis believe that not a single person's life have been made richer, kinder or more fulfilled by adhering to Islamic beliefs?

Rew says

all sparked by economic hardship

So, where does the hardship come from?

Neoliberal Globalization.

The radicalization comes from countries that are the biggest donors to US politicians and influencers. Podesta Group just got 6 figures from Saudi Arabia, and almost 7 from Iraq. The Mainstream Media doesn't report on this, only the Alt Media does, with a simple FASA records search.

The reason Muslims are now wearing burkas and hijabs increasingly, from Egypt to Indonesia, whereas before they were exceedingly rare, is because of Gulf State Fundamentalist missionaries, funded by Oil Money, building schools and mosques all over the world.

Nasser, 1958:
www.youtube.com/embed/_ZIqdrFeFBk

Remember, Islam is supposed to be the final Revelation, and the end goal of Islam is total Global conversion which, unlike Christianity and Judaism (or Sikhism or Hinduism or Buddhist) is a KEY REQUIREMENT for paradise on Earth and the End Times. The idea that the West, China, etc. have surpassed and continue to be overwhelmingly mighty versus most of the Islamic world can only be explained by "We've turned away from True Hardcore Islam".

It is NOT because of West, but a reaction TO the values of the West.

I wish most Muslims were White so "Educated" people would be more open to criticizing it.

MMR says

But Pakistan and Bangladesh opposite with regard to ethnic/religious cleansing

Part of this sentence seemed to get lost somehow, and doesn't appear in the comment, so I don't know what it was going to say? In any event, the former East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, suffered the genocidal slaughter of either 1 million (indepedent estimates) or 3 million (official total) people, mostly Hindus, and continues to suffer lethal Sharia Patrols. I have yet to hear of any Sharia Patrols getting convicted and sentenced, even for murders committed in broad daylight in front of witnesses. Islam started in the Arabian Peninsula, hijacking the Abrahamic tradition which had started near the Mediterranean, and is thus totally foreign to the Hindu and Buddhist traditions of east Asia. As Churchill wrote, Islam spread by the sword.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Podesta Group just got 6 figures from Saudi Arabia, and almost 7 from Iraq. The Mainstream Media doesn't report on this, only the Alt Media does, with a simple FASA records search.

It happens in plain sight, and gets reported. The Intercept has reported the Saudi connection, which Vox reported last year. Medea Benjamin wrote Saudis financing Clintonland it in the Huffington Post during the campaign. Partisans ignore it all, because it doesn't appear in TPM.

I see the same pattern recur in this "debate" across different threads and sites. No amount of evidence persuades the partisans, who rely on their corrupted sloganeers. Even when Hillary Clinton acknowledged that lethal terrorism "is clearly rooted in Islamic thinking," it made no difference, because she said increasing mass surveillance will somehow protect us all from her Saudi sponsors. It's bizarre to see people throwing themselves onto the Saudi sword while demanding everyone else must do the same.

Among major party nominees for President, only Donald Trump spoke candidly about Islam and what was happening in the Middle East. (Among independent parties, Jill Stein also spoke candidly about the Middle East. Gary Johnson acknowledged not knowing what Aleppo is, and that was also candid, but Donald Trump and Jill Stein were obviously better informed.)

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

I wish most Muslims were White so "Educated" people would be more open to criticizing it.

Some of the white "educated" (book smart but not street smart) people do appear misled by their own obsessive racism. The soft bigotry of low expectations causes them to see everyone who isn't white as a hapless victim, so if you criticize a hateful fraud perpetrated by people who aren't white, some of the white racists on the left react as if you had just beaten up a child. Even though evidence and reason should cause them to denounce Islam, they act instead as if doing so would be akin to telling a 5yo there is no Santa Claus. That appears to be "educated" white leftist racists' estimation of everyone who isn't white.

As I wrote above, Muslims and Nazis saw how similar their doctrines were, and still are. KKK, too. Racism and partisan corruption blind "educated" white racists on the left.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Neoliberal Globalization.

Neoliberal Globalization

Paleocapitalistic Globalization

There's nothing neo or liberal about "neoliberalism".

curious2 says

Clintonland it in

@Patrick, the shorter comment length limit for editing prevents me from deleting the stray "it" in the sentence above, even though deleting a word would necessarily make the comment shorter. It also prevents me from adding links after posting a comment, although admittedly those would make the comment longer. I'm not sure why the comment length limits differ between initially posting and subsequently editing, but if they must differ, then it would probably be better to set the editing limit longer.

MMR says

I wish he showed such indifference to h1-b workers coming from India to teach stem subjects in high school

I've answered this claim multiple times. I actually don't have a problem with foreigners coming here to teach.

Also, becasue I believe that globalization is inevitable (should say was inevitable) doesn't mean I don't appreciate the idea of limiting h1-bs for engineering jobs. I would say, if they went to college here, then allow them to stay if they want. The brain drain in this direction has to ultimately be good for us.

Btw, if I had chosen tech a while back, with my background in trading, I would be making at least twice what I make now, if not a lot more.

Rew says

PeopleUnited says

I just don't know how warped this version of Islam is?

Rew said "You should probably learn some more and decide whether you believe the fringe minority radical Islamic practice is warped or true Islam."

Rew, the founder of Islam practiced the violence recorded in the Koran and taught his followers to do the same. So I would say that the true Islam is the extremely violent terrorist Islam practiced by the faithful. The other Muslim religious are Islam in name only. Just waiting to be radicalized and converted to true Islam.

Given the propensity of interracial relations, I agree with this statement.
It could only be derailed, however, by a nuclear ELE...

marcus says

Also, becasue I believe that globalization is inevitable

CL says

Encourage the good ones to work on the bad ones is the only thing that works.

Best way to do that is to allow refugees to use the resources(schools/section 8) close to those in the best neighborhoods instead of putting them in twin falls Idaho or other off the beaten path locales.

Ironic how those who fight for the right to accommodate refugees never want them using their schools and giving them the best chance of not becoming radicalized.

Having said that, it is STILL worth noting that many radicalized people are actually highly educated....so jury is out on whether education is answer.

What is clear is that ghettoization is definitely not the answer.

Lastly good luck, since the bad muslims (those who don't take literal interpretations of Koran) often support those who do

marcus says

I've answered this claim multiple times. I

It's the first time I've ever seen you address it directly and I skim patnet most days.

Interesting that you support h1-b for engineers who are educated here (Bachelor or masters)....for most part I do ....still I believe that the numbers should be decreased and there shouldn't be scenarios where people (citizens) are training replacements, especially those who do not have technical degrees

Also the loopholes that allow sweatshops to game system through L-1 should be cracked down upon.

Having said that NO ONE is going to come from India to work as a teacher WITHOUT being offered an h1-b upfront, as there is zero incentive to get a student visa for said purpose.

Realistically, US cannot rely on idealist teach for America types to fill the void since those guys are really about padding their resume for something bigger and better.

marcus says

Btw, if I had chosen tech a while back, with my background in trading, I would be making at least twice what I make now, if not a lot more.

Does this mean you teach in a bougie school district and not one of the tougher schools?

If you teach in a bougie school, then you don't really need to worry about competition because h1-b teach in school districts that most white teachers don't want to go to

That's all we need: more teachers who we can't understand through their thick accents. I'm sure the teachers unions would be pleased with the scab H1B competition as well...
if Marcus had gone into tech he'd be a janitor at a tech firm.

NY Board of Reagents drops Literacy Test to Certify Teachers: Because too many minorities fail it.
http://nypost.com/2017/03/06/state-considering-major-changes-to-teacher-certification-exams/

4 years of College and you can't pass a literacy test? Folks, this isn't any different than the Reading Comprehension part of the SAT most people take to get INTO College:
http://www.nystce.nesinc.com/Content/STUDYGUIDE/NY_SG_SRI_202.htm

But then, Education Degrees are earned by the lowest SAT scores by Major, so not a surprise.

curious2 says

I see the same pattern recur in this "debate" across different threads and sites. No amount of evidence persuades the partisans, who rely on their corrupted sloganeers. Even when Hillary Clinton acknowledged that lethal terrorism "is clearly rooted in Islamic thinking," it made no difference, because she said increasing mass surveillance will somehow protect us all from her Saudi sponsors. It's bizarre to see people throwing themselves onto the Saudi sword while demanding everyone else must do the same.

Among major party nominees for President, only Donald Trump spoke candidly about Islam and what was happening in the Middle East. (Among independent parties, Jill Stein also spoke candidly about the Middle East. Gary Johnson acknowledged not knowing what Aleppo is, and that was also candid, but Donald Trump and Jill Stein were obviously better informed.)

WaPoIsHitl...

PeopleUnited says

why any non-Moslem would consider it a good thing if more Moslems lived in their town or neighborhood.

Let's take a look at this Map of Terror Attacks. ( @curious2 )

Funny, the Country with the most Right Wing government in Europe has no terror attacks, and yet we are warned Right Wing Terror is deadliest of all by the Media. I wonder what else this hard right country (doesn't) do the same as everybody else, that they have no terror?

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/04/22/help-stoplimit-muslim-immigration-into-your-country/

According to PeopleUnited in another thread: Trump is doing great, because PeopleUnited says

He isn't her. And that is the point isn't it?

By that standard, Islam and ISIS is great too. @PeopleUnited, would you rather ISIS or the Democrats govern the US?

Lashkar_i_Trumpi says

the Country with the most Right Wing government in Europe has no terror attacks....

I lament that secular liberal governments are too easily corrupted by Petrodollar baksheesh and wishful thinking, with multiculturalism becoming a secular cult similar to Jonestown or the Branch Davidians. An educated and very smart "liberal" friend told me she would rather be killed in the name of Islam than stop importing Muslims. I believe her. The hypnosis has become so powerful, reinforced for so long by the NATO MSM echo chamber, that evidence and reason don't stand a chance. I would really prefer genuinely liberal government, but trying to explain to "multiculturalists" what Islam says and does to people around the world is like trying to deprogram members of a cult at its zenith while they are still living in it.

YesYNot says

or

Your comment is technically correct, but alas the correct conjunction in 2016 was "and". As I see it, we have around two years to persuade Democrats that spreading Islam is not liberal.

ISIL/Daesh is run by a Muslim with a PhD in Islamic studies, born to a Muslim family in a Muslim community. He grew up in a country that has more than 90% Muslims (as most countries with more than 20% Muslims do, because refusing to submit to Islam becomes too difficult for all but a few, and then the Muslims need to import non-Muslims to do much of the work, e.g. the Barbary States' slave trade and the current Petrodollar-driven quasi-slave trade and hiring of Rashomon among others). ISIL/Daesh spokesmen justify everything its enforcers do by reading from texts the vast majority of Muslims hold sacred. If you mock those texts, or call them false or not worth believing anymore, all too many Muslims would literally kill you: Asia Bibi is now on death row in Pakistan for blasphemy, and KSA calls atheists "terrorists" along with anyone else who questions the fundamentals of Islam, and when Muslims murdered French cartoonists huge numbers of Muslims rioted in solidarity with the Islamic murderers and against the French. ISIL/Daesh has everything to do with Islam, and descriptions of similar Islamic barbarism go back more than a thousand years. Sam Harris made the point well: the current secular left refuse to accept that anyone can actually believe in a religion, and thus the secular left fail to understand how the world looks through religious eyes; the religious "right" see Islam more clearly, and recognize the threat, because religion is real to them. You can see it in the comments by religious users of PatNet: for them, religion is the founding assumption and ultimate conclusion, "the alpha and the omega."

Well said curious2. ISIS is pure Islam, the culmination of the Islamic culture. The world has finally started to experience what Islam really is.

curious2 says

for them, religion is the founding assumption and ultimate conclusion, "the alpha and the omega."

Yeah, but they are not true Christians. If you want to apply the textual originalist method of reading to the Koran, then apply it to the bibles too. Then we can get on with our war against Christianity too.

RIots against Christians are common in Pakistan, and in the most recent trial, over 100 rioters were acquited, despite countless videos and witness testimonies.

The converse is not true: Christians who rioted over bombings of two Churches, 42 were given terrorism sentences.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2017/february/pakistan-convicts-christians-acquits-muslims-lahore-riots.html

Not only are people lynched frequently on mere accusations of blasphemy, but the few politicians who stand up against it are assassinated.
http://thediplomat.com/2017/04/even-a-horrific-murder-isnt-enough-to-shake-pakistans-blasphemy-laws/

Lashkar_i_Trumpi says

RIots against Christians are common in Pakistan, and in the most recent trial, over 100 rioters were acquited, despite countless videos and witness testimonies.

The converse is not true: Christians who rioted over bombings of two Churches, 42 were given terrorism sentences.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2017/february/pakistan-convicts-christians-acquits-muslims-lahore-riots.html

Not only are people lynched frequently on mere accusations of blasphemy, but the few politicians who stand up against it are assassinated.

http://thediplomat.com/2017/04/even-a-horrific-murder-isnt-enough-to-shake-pakistans-blasphemy-laws/

An Islamic country is no place for the infidels. Your days are always numbered.

PeopleUnited says

ISIS is pure Islam, the culmination of the Islamic culture.

This is absolutely true.

ISIS is nothing other than Islam taken seriously. Muslims know this, but will not admit it to Westerners. Except for this guy:

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/video-egyptian-human-rights-activist-isis-is-doing-what-the-prophet-muhammad-did/

The Quranic texts are crystal clear. When the Quran says “strike their necks,” it is very clear. When it says “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day, and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful, and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – until they give the jizya willingly while they are humbled” it is very clear, and ISIS understands and implements it in Iraq, Syria, and elsewhere.

Boko Haram are also implementing this when they capture women. This is what the Prophet Muhammad and his companions did.

rando says

The Quranic texts are crystal clear. When the Quran says “strike their necks,” it is very clear. When it says “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day, and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful, and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – until they give the jizya willingly while they are humbled” it is very clear, and ISIS understands and implements it in Iraq, Syria, and elsewhere.

From the article: Blame the Jews:
Sheik Sayyed Zaid: First of all, who says that ISIAS is an Islamic group? About a week ago, the American media declared that the ISIS leader, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi – who has nothing to do with Islam – is of Israeli origin. This is a Mossad ploy. America said this, not me.

YesYNot says

If you want to apply the textual originalist method of reading to the Koran, then apply it to the bibles too.

If you took the time to read both, instead of asserting from ignorance that they are equivalent, then you would know they are not. I've survived countless debates with Christians and can quote chapter and verse from both the NT and the OT, in addition to the Koran. You would never survive a similar debate in Pakistan; you'd be legally executed for blasphemy. Also, although Christian "fundamentalists" claim to believe every word of the KJV (even the contradictions between expressly different authors, and the known errors in translation), Muslims have a much simpler method of resolving apparent conflicts between passages of the Koran: Mohamed could change his mind and adapt to his own growing power; whatever he said last, governs. The whole fraud of Islam was literally invented by that one charlatan, and there's no arguing with him. He started out small and seemingly harmless (microsoft), but he became increasingly lethal as he and his followers gained power. The dead charlatan Mohamed remains the ultimate example for Muslims to follow, and his biography repeats in the process of hijrah (importing jihadis as "refugees") and Islamization. Muslims know about the sunnah, but use taqiyyeh to deceive infidels, especially the identitarian liberal "multiculturalists" who want emotionally to believe that "religions are all the same." (BTW, saying that in Pakistan would be a capital offense, and Muslim countries are organizing a global jihad against blasphemy including specifically online, and that is consistent with the Islamic State publishing home addresses of blasphemers - including atheists - and other high value targets, e.g. American transit police. Be careful how many jihadis you want to import, and whether you really want to rent rooms in your house to them; be careful what you wish for. Most killings in the name of Islam are not counted as terrorism, because they happen one at a time, e.g. the bloggers in Bangladesh. Remember, "assassin" began as an Islamic word.)

rando says

This is absolutely true.

ISIS is nothing other than Islam taken seriously. Muslims know this, but will not admit it to Westerners. Except for this guy:

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/video-egyptian-human-rights-activist-isis-is-doing-what-the-prophet-muhammad-did/

2:12
Atheist Egyptian Activist Ahmad Harqan ISIS Is Doing what the Prophet Muhammad Did
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ISIS+Is+Doing+what+the+Prophet+Muhammad+Did

curious2 says

asserting from ignorance that they are equivalent

I never asserted that they were equivalent. I asserted that they are both intolerable. Thankfully, most American 'Christians' are not true Christians. curious2 says

You would never survive a similar debate in Pakistan

I'm not planning on going there. I like it here, and i don't want to import any jihadis.

curious2 says

You would never survive a similar debate in Pakistan; you'd be executed for blasphemy.

This is the most essential point.

YesYNot says

You would never survive a similar debate in Pakistan

I'm not planning on going there. I like it here, and i don't want to import any jihadis.

Stick to the internet YesYNot. Lots of people here who think just like the Jihadis.

YesYNot says

According to PeopleUnited in another thread: Trump is doing great, because PeopleUnited says

He isn't her. And that is the point isn't it?

By that standard, Islam and ISIS is great too. @PeopleUnited, would you rather ISIS or the Democrats govern the US?

Demorats are funny animals. Can I have a third option? What about Ross Perot, is he available?

YesYNot says

curious2 says

for them, religion is the founding assumption and ultimate conclusion, "the alpha and the omega."

Yeah, but they are not true Christians. If you want to apply the textual originalist method of reading to the Koran, then apply it to the bibles too. Then we can get on with our war against Christianity too.

A liberal democrat finally speaking the truth. So you admit you want to wage war on Christianity? How enlightened of you. If only the world had more hatred for Christians!

Nominated

PeopleUnited says

If only the world had more hatred for Christians

I don't hate fake Christians like you. It's just true Christianity that needs to go. Fortunately, organized religion stopped practicing true Christianity. We just have to get them to admit that they are using a textual originalist interpretation when it suits there needs while applying a filter on the parts that are too extreme. Once they admit that, then they can stop pushing their flavor of morality on the rest of us.