patrick.net

bob2356 says

What initial aptitude tests or entry level training programs?

Programming and math tests week 1, and derivatives industry applied knowledge at week 10.

bob2356 says

Quants are graduate level people usually PHD's.

You consistently assume you know more than you know. This will always lead you to poor conclusions.

Quants is a broad term. This conversation was regarding entry level quantitative developers. Most of these people have the equivalent of undergrad or masters programs. On eastern Europe I am told they often recruit from tech trade schools.

Our universities are woefully bad at educating developers, especially quantitative developers.

bob2356 says

People come from all over the world to get into top level US PHD programs.

Yup... And many more are staying in their own country to learn coding/math/science without wasting $400k. Top students from these students come out very well educated and without the ego associated to a wasteful credential.

I'm glad you can put your finger on the problem.

Though even in our top programs, the students will be mostly foreign. It is not uncommon for an entire US PHD physics department to have 100% foreign educated grad students. These are the affluent who have the money to attain a superficial credential.

FWIW, all of the best developers I've worked w over my career have been self taught.

Universities can't keep up w technology.

FP says

they cannot comprehend how poor the teaching approach here is

and where everything is reinterpreted within the context of gender/class/sexual orientation/global warming

marcus says

those Russian, Indian and Chinese children to have such good study habits and work ethic ?

They're probably all from normal mother/father families without a lot of drama in their lives who know the importance of good grounding in science and expect their children to toe the line and not primed like a hair-trigger to sue the school or blame the teacher when their kid gets a bad grade. And I'll bet those kids don't act up and disrespect their teachers, either.

If we are so bad, how come we do so well in IMO?

http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

Are we really that bad in Math? If so, how come we are doing so well in International Mathematics Olympiad?

http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

We finished 1st the last two years and mostly in top 5 the last 3 decades.

BayArea says

When it comes to K-12 teachers, what's troubling is that the salaries are far below what you need to cover cost of living in a place like the Bay Area.

They get enough for the work they do. The HS math teachers in my district don't teach - students are supposed to teach each other under the idiotic CPM program they have implemented. This means that I do the teacher's job of teaching. They also do not grade much because a lot of the work (assignments and tests) is group work.

Several teachers run a tutoring center where where they get supplementary income while doing the work they are supposed to do in the classroom.

bob2356 says

So where are all the eastern european countries that are doing better at math and science? Estonia, which is northern europe and has a population less than San Jose, is the only one that scores higher in both subjects.

This type of rankings are not very telling for several reasons. I'll explain later when I have time.

Certain groups in the US skew down the numbers.

Wasn't Prussia part of Eastern Europe? I would think the originators of the docile workers, voracious consumers program would be better at it than us.

rpanic01 says

Certain groups in the US skew down the numbers.

Yeah, team left tries to paint poor red-state performance as a "republican" problem, when it is more of a demographic issue. Alabama and missippi have 30 to 40% African American populations, democrat voting areas that drastically drag average performance lower.

YesYNot says

True, but do you really need the best and brightest to teach math to a kid in highschool?

You make a good point. Asking google, I see that the average school teacher salary in the Bay Area is around ~$65K/yr. I guess many teachers supplement their income in the summer time, but still.

http://www1.salary.com/CA/Public-School-Teacher-salary.html

At $65K you are undoubtedly not attracting the best and brightest. But who are you attracting? And how are these people surviving?

What's remarkable is that you can take a place like the Bakersfield where the cost of living might be 1/3 of what it is in SF. But the school teacher salary in SF is only 30% higher.

Because the kids have already realized that they don't need what the US educational system is trying to pawn off on them. You don't need math numbers to go on social services or work at low end jobs that are the most ready slob jobs available to them.

"I don't need this SHIT, and I DON'T want to be here !!" The teachers are beginning to realize that the kids were right all these years and they (the teachers) were wrong. So why try to do a good job, just snatch your 100k a year pay check, go home with your golden benefits, and stroll off into a beautiful tax payer funded retirement.

Good Job America! You never saw it coming. We have distorted the competition here and enslaved a nation so us few can easily get wealthy on the backs of the SLOBS!

rpanic01 says

Certain groups in the US skew down the numbers.

Like perhaps the kids of the 11-40 million illegals?

BayArea says

Asking google, I see that the average school teacher salary in the Bay Area is around ~$65K/yr.

Do you really think there are many full time teaching jobs in the bay area that pay less than $65K/y? In my district HS salaries are usually > $90K. That is not bad for somebody who can start work at age 22 (admittedly at a lower salary) and have a relatively secure job for life with plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.

For comparison, we have 30 year old postdocs, with PhD's from top schools, earning $50-60K/year and no job security whatsoever.

FP says

Do you really think there are many full time teaching jobs in the bay area that pay less than $65K/y?

If the average is $65K, then there should be many making less than $65K. Unless the data is fake.

FP says

In my district HS salaries are usually > $90K

Usually >$90K?
Where?

FP says

plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.

Having been a public school teacher for 10 years, yes we did get MUCH time off during the year with vacation and school breaks, but it was always the same dates each year and the darn students were free at the same time as well...

BayArea says

If the average is $65K, then there should be many making less than $65K. Unless the data is fake.

or maybe the average includes non-full time jobs and/or some other type of special positions

casandra says

FP says

plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.

Having been a public school teacher for 10 years, yes we did get MUCH time off during the year with vacation and school breaks, but it was always the same dates each year and the darn students were free at the same time as well...

well, it can't be perfect :)

Yeah, I am gonna have to disagree with the characterization that east euro students tend to be more driven and successful. In fact, they are much more likely to throw their youth and life away on drinking, partying and other high risk activities. There's a reason why average russian male lives to under 65 - it starts with deleterious effects stemming from lifestyle choices in the youth. To get a good idea of youth gone bad over there, read "Black Earth City" to see dorm life in medium size city.

The lack of tying everything in to a big picture, with everything a la carte and taught in Isolation, is a major, major problem with schooling.

This isn't just Math, but also Science, History, you name it. You get taught seemingly unrelated packets of information, usually without context, and no big picture.

Math is a big one for "Why is this important? This is just goobleygook, guess i have to learn it anyway."

Or the laughable lies like "Trashmen need Algebra and Geometry" on a school chart I saw once. Even at 12 I knew that was pure BS.

casandra says

So why try to do a good job, just snatch your 100k a year pay check, go home with your golden benefits, and stroll off into a beautiful tax payer funded retirement.

Yes, of course this is how teachers think. They don't even like children, they have no illusions about serving or helping others, they're just killing time til they can get that pension. They find this is what makes them feel fulfilled as a person.

Obviously I'm not serious.

Interestingly this kind of talk is much more prevalent now than it was 40 years ago, when there was far far far far far less pressure on public school teachers.

FP says

This means that I do the teacher's job of teaching.

There are a lot of good parents that think that when they help their children learn that they are simply doing their job, not the teachers job.

But I get it, everything is in comparison to your experience as a child. You were in a different environment with highly motivated students closer to the same Math experience and aptitude level (relative to each other).

Newsflash: For a teacher that knows the Math - teaching in that situation is WAY easier than teaching say algebra one to a mixed group. And yes I'm speaking from experience of having done both.

Another thing you should realize. When your child gets up to the level of classes that aren't required for everyone (i.e. precalc and above), you are going to be less critical. That is unless your child is lacking abilities that you have and you need to blame the school.

About CPM, I have mixed feelings about it. I don't love teaching it. But I see some benefits. IT's definitely not traditional. They over do it a bit on the discovery. Although discovering something rather than just having it put out there is often valuable to the student, relative to learning how to learn. It's also problem solving oriented.

FP says

because a lot of the work (assignments and tests) is group work

Yes, I'm ambivalent on some of this type of thing, but I understand the intent. It's not easy to get students actually putting their understanding in to words. Ask students a good question, and most are likely to want to be passive and wait for someone else to answer (either one of the smartest students or the teacher). Have them figure it out, and learn to work together. I get it you didn't do that when you were coming up. Do you find that you're as good at working with others as you would like to be now ?

marcus says

Have them figure it out, and learn to work together. I get it you didn't do that when you were coming up. Do you find that you're as good at working with others as you would like to be now ?

Their difficulty is usually not working together but working alone. I am stating this as someone who has tough many years at a University and has supervised undergraduate and graduate students, and postdocs.

I think that I am better at what I do than many people aournd me thanks to my educational background.

marcus says

FP says

This means that I do the teacher's job of teaching.

There are a lot of good parents that think that when they help their children learn that they are simply doing their job, not the teachers job.

Please allow me to know what I am taking about.

Let me give a specific example.

Background: One of my kids is freshman taking honors algebra 2. They use CPM. Before that In middle school - straight A's, excellent teacher, I never had to help at home.

A few weeks ago the kid comes to me, almost in tears, and tells me that he has no clue how to solve the problems they are doing in class. They had been on this topic for two weeks, none of his classmates understands them, and the teacher is not explaining anything. The topic was plotting trigonometric functions (with amplitude, phase shift, etc).

I was on my way to the airport and had only 30 min to spend with him. This was sufficient for him to understand how to approach the problems, and I left him some excercise problems.

When I came back home the following week, I asked him how things in math are. The answe was: "Most students still don't have a clue. The few of us who understand the problems teach the rest."

So to summarize: a large fraction of the students in that class learned (barely!!!) the topic in question from my son, who learned it from me during a 30 min rushed session. They spent more than 3 weeks for this.

This example is not an isolated case. It is the norm.

The founder of Khan academy has interesting take on this. He mentions Leonardo da vinci as an example of how to properly educate a genius. Unfortunately almost no-one has access to the top brains in the world of every topic available for 1 on 1 tutoring, like LDV had.

The fact that a teacher is forced to teach the class at the same pace sacrifices the potential of kids at both ends of the spectrum in favor of the average student. We are churning out armies of Office Space working zombies, not free thinking intellects.

FP says

So to summarize: a large fraction of the students in that class learned (barely!!!) the topic in question from my son, who learned it from me during a 30 min rushed session. They spent more than 3 weeks for this.

It sounds like the teacher didn't understand the subject matter. That's really sad

Why are you still sending your kid there? Put him on khan academy and curate his path at home.

FP says

This example is not an isolated case. It is the norm.

If so, then it's a bad teacher. Small sample size though, and you're generalizing conclusions about what, all American Math teachers and CPM from this ?

About the trig, I like to show students two methods. The memorized method, that includes dividing 2pi by the coefficient of x in the argument of the sin or cos function to get the period. And look at the factored argument to get the horizontal shift. But it's also (especially if graphing) nice to take the argument (however complex an expression it might be), call it U and solve U = 0 and U = 2pi to get the starting and ending x coordinates of one sin(U) or cos(U) cycle of the sin or cos function you're graphing. Of course you still need to get the amplitude and vertical shift, but that's easier for students.

Now, Marcus, a few quick questions for you:

Tell me a good geometry textbook being used in the American schools.

Tell me a good algebra textbook?

How about a good physics textbook?

Before you go and ahead and point me to some 900 page doorstop, think about this - what are the criteria that a good textbook must satisfy? Hint: the Russian math pedagosists have already figured this out 100 years ago. But for anybody who has actually studied math (and physics) properly, this should be obvious.

Yes, textbooks are a business and probably part of whats behind the whole "American Math teaching sucks" message is that it's perpetuated by publishers that are supposedly going to solve the curriculum problem.

I agree to a degree that there were great Math books in existence decades ago if not centuries ago.

Anyone interested in great little books on Algebra and Trigonometry to review (for adults) or to accompany your childs learning, these are great !

https://www.amazon.com/Algebra-Israel-M-Gelfand/dp/0817636773/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1494013538&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=algebra%2C+gelfond

https://www.amazon.com/Trigonometry-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817639144/ref=sr_1_sc_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1494013538&sr=1-2-spell&keywords=algebra%2C+gelfond

As for commercial books in wide use ?

Pearson has a lot of good books. One I know a lot of community colleges for intermediate algebra has an accompanying computer program called MyMathLab. But that's another conversation and points to the way things are going.

marcus says

If so, then it's a bad teacher. Small sample size though, and you're generalizing conclusions about what, all American Math teachers and CPM from this ?

I have talked with many people and students. All the teachers in the school are like this. It is not a case of a single bad techer. The CPM approach is intrinsicly faulty. Furthermore, there are no criteria or controls for evaluating how the teachers apply this method. It just allows them to hide their laziness behind CPM.

The books you gave links above are decent; I have them. But they are not used in the schools and are not really appropriate as main textbooks.

marcus says

About the trig,

And here's how I do it:

1. Plot cos(x) and sin(x)

2. Add a shift: cos(x) +a

3. Add an amplitude: Acos(x)

4. Now put 2 and 3 together.

5. Add a phase shift: cos(x+b)

6. Now put 4 and 5 together.

7. Add a frequency multiplier: cos(fx)

8. Now put everything.

9. Practice on your own: 10-20 examples with various combinations of a, A, b and f

10. Now complicate things even further, e.g. add an absolute value, or a sum of a trig function and a linear function, or make the argument non-linear.

It is points 10. and (to a leaser extend) 9. where you want the students confused, stuck for long time thinking and discovering. Not at points 1, 2, 3,..

marcus says

You get what you pay for.

Except for American public education.

FP says

The CPM approach is intrinsicly faulty.

This is your opinion. But if you can't acknowledge the positives that the the CPM method provides, then you aren't being honest. I get it, it's not the way you think it should be done. And you may even be right, that the best methods are in between what CPM does and the traditional approach. But if you can't acknowledge tohe good aspects of it, then I can't respect your opinion as anything more than emotion.

FP says

It just allows them to hide their laziness behind CPM.

Actually when first doing it, it's very hard to let go of being a control freak and letting the kids loose to explore and put things together on their own. I have difficulty with it becasue of how long it takes, and when I teach it, I combine with traditional and can't use their lessons all the time. Truth is I haven't taught CPM much, and I haven't done it well. But I find it WAY more difficult than traditional, so your laziness point doesn't hold up. Teachers find teachingthe CPM way VERY difficult.

The main thing you don't get is that the teachers do feel accountable, so it's very hard to let go with those collaborative student driven lessons. You really have know idea what drives the typical teacher.

I wish we would replace Geometry and Trig with Logic, which would be far more useful for most people (and society generally).

The best thing to do would be to Reform English spelling, so we save months of time wasted. Even phonics can only do so much: Through, Bough, Though, Tough, Cough. Clue, Blue, Due, Rue but Clew, Blew, Dew. Glue and True, yet Threw and Pew. And settle the French vs. Dutch spelling for profit (more letters=more lines=more profit) from the time of the English Civil War.

The Spanish did it by saying "Starting on X date, any petitions, filings, etc. to the Royal Court must use the new spelling or it will be rejected."

It's funny people flip out over the milisecond it takes to double tap the spacebar, but are opposed to reforming the spelling which would slash months of learning, and probably weeks off lifetime of writing.

CBOEtrader says

Why are you still sending your kid there? Put him on khan academy and curate his path at home.

What choice do I have? It's a top rated public school :) I didn't expect this based on our middle school experience.

Khan academy is good for explaining things but not for a complete education.

So I am going the home path way - math, physics and programming. I have ordered some soviet books from Mir publishing, some in English, some I'm translating. I'm also translating my old textbooks from midddle and high school (we had physics from 6th grade).

FP says

marcus says

If so, then it's a bad teacher. Small sample size though, and you're generalizing conclusions about what, all American Math teachers and CPM from this ?

I have talked with many people and students. All the teachers in the school are like this. It is not a case of a single bad techer. The CPM approach is intrinsicly faulty. Furthermore, there are no criteria or controls for evaluating how the teachers apply this method. It just allows them to hide their laziness behind CPM.

Slow clap bro. W your dedication your son will certainly outpace his classmates. Test him against his Russian cousins and report back how the foreign students match up.

Sorry in the sun and quoted wrong post above