Why is our math and science education so far behind eastern europe?
invite response
2017 May 4, 6:40pm 15,682 views 84 comments
« First « Previous Comments 38 - 77 of 84 Next » Last » Search these comments
FuckTheMainstreamMedia
2017 May 5, 9:46am
Certain groups in the US skew down the numbers.
Like perhaps the kids of the 11-40 million illegals?
Asking google, I see that the average school teacher salary in the Bay Area is around ~$65K/yr.
Do you really think there are many full time teaching jobs in the bay area that pay less than $65K/y? In my district HS salaries are usually > $90K. That is not bad for somebody who can start work at age 22 (admittedly at a lower salary) and have a relatively secure job for life with plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.
For comparison, we have 30 year old postdocs, with PhD's from top schools, earning $50-60K/year and no job security whatsoever.
casandra
2017 May 5, 10:05am
plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.
Having been a public school teacher for 10 years, yes we did get MUCH time off during the year with vacation and school breaks, but it was always the same dates each year and the darn students were free at the same time as well...
If the average is $65K, then there should be many making less than $65K. Unless the data is fake.
or maybe the average includes non-full time jobs and/or some other type of special positions
plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.
Having been a public school teacher for 10 years, yes we did get MUCH time off during the year with vacation and school breaks, but it was always the same dates each year and the darn students were free at the same time as well...
well, it can't be perfect :)
Yeah, I am gonna have to disagree with the characterization that east euro students tend to be more driven and successful. In fact, they are much more likely to throw their youth and life away on drinking, partying and other high risk activities. There's a reason why average russian male lives to under 65 - it starts with deleterious effects stemming from lifestyle choices in the youth. To get a good idea of youth gone bad over there, read "Black Earth City" to see dorm life in medium size city.
MisdemeanorRebel
2017 May 5, 10:27am
The lack of tying everything in to a big picture, with everything a la carte and taught in Isolation, is a major, major problem with schooling.
This isn't just Math, but also Science, History, you name it. You get taught seemingly unrelated packets of information, usually without context, and no big picture.
Math is a big one for "Why is this important? This is just goobleygook, guess i have to learn it anyway."
Or the laughable lies like "Trashmen need Algebra and Geometry" on a school chart I saw once. Even at 12 I knew that was pure BS.
marcus
2017 May 5, 10:30am
So why try to do a good job, just snatch your 100k a year pay check, go home with your golden benefits, and stroll off into a beautiful tax payer funded retirement.
Yes, of course this is how teachers think. They don't even like children, they have no illusions about serving or helping others, they're just killing time til they can get that pension. They find this is what makes them feel fulfilled as a person.
Obviously I'm not serious.
Interestingly this kind of talk is much more prevalent now than it was 40 years ago, when there was far far far far far less pressure on public school teachers.
marcus
2017 May 5, 10:39am
This means that I do the teacher's job of teaching.
There are a lot of good parents that think that when they help their children learn that they are simply doing their job, not the teachers job.
But I get it, everything is in comparison to your experience as a child. You were in a different environment with highly motivated students closer to the same Math experience and aptitude level (relative to each other).
Newsflash: For a teacher that knows the Math - teaching in that situation is WAY easier than teaching say algebra one to a mixed group. And yes I'm speaking from experience of having done both.
Another thing you should realize. When your child gets up to the level of classes that aren't required for everyone (i.e. precalc and above), you are going to be less critical. That is unless your child is lacking abilities that you have and you need to blame the school.
About CPM, I have mixed feelings about it. I don't love teaching it. But I see some benefits. IT's definitely not traditional. They over do it a bit on the discovery. Although discovering something rather than just having it put out there is often valuable to the student, relative to learning how to learn. It's also problem solving oriented.
because a lot of the work (assignments and tests) is group work
Yes, I'm ambivalent on some of this type of thing, but I understand the intent. It's not easy to get students actually putting their understanding in to words. Ask students a good question, and most are likely to want to be passive and wait for someone else to answer (either one of the smartest students or the teacher). Have them figure it out, and learn to work together. I get it you didn't do that when you were coming up. Do you find that you're as good at working with others as you would like to be now ?
Have them figure it out, and learn to work together. I get it you didn't do that when you were coming up. Do you find that you're as good at working with others as you would like to be now ?
Their difficulty is usually not working together but working alone. I am stating this as someone who has tough many years at a University and has supervised undergraduate and graduate students, and postdocs.
I think that I am better at what I do than many people aournd me thanks to my educational background.
This means that I do the teacher's job of teaching.
There are a lot of good parents that think that when they help their children learn that they are simply doing their job, not the teachers job.
Please allow me to know what I am taking about.
Let me give a specific example.
Background: One of my kids is freshman taking honors algebra 2. They use CPM. Before that In middle school - straight A's, excellent teacher, I never had to help at home.
A few weeks ago the kid comes to me, almost in tears, and tells me that he has no clue how to solve the problems they are doing in class. They had been on this topic for two weeks, none of his classmates understands them, and the teacher is not explaining anything. The topic was plotting trigonometric functions (with amplitude, phase shift, etc).
I was on my way to the airport and had only 30 min to spend with him. This was sufficient for him to understand how to approach the problems, and I left him some excercise problems.
When I came back home the following week, I asked him how things in math are. The answe was: "Most students still don't have a clue. The few of us who understand the problems teach the rest."
So to summarize: a large fraction of the students in that class learned (barely!!!) the topic in question from my son, who learned it from me during a 30 min rushed session. They spent more than 3 weeks for this.
This example is not an isolated case. It is the norm.
CBOEtrader
2017 May 5, 12:34pm
The founder of Khan academy has interesting take on this. He mentions Leonardo da vinci as an example of how to properly educate a genius. Unfortunately almost no-one has access to the top brains in the world of every topic available for 1 on 1 tutoring, like LDV had.
The fact that a teacher is forced to teach the class at the same pace sacrifices the potential of kids at both ends of the spectrum in favor of the average student. We are churning out armies of Office Space working zombies, not free thinking intellects.
CBOEtrader
2017 May 5, 12:35pm
So to summarize: a large fraction of the students in that class learned (barely!!!) the topic in question from my son, who learned it from me during a 30 min rushed session. They spent more than 3 weeks for this.
It sounds like the teacher didn't understand the subject matter. That's really sad
CBOEtrader
2017 May 5, 12:36pm
Why are you still sending your kid there? Put him on khan academy and curate his path at home.
marcus
2017 May 5, 12:38pm
This example is not an isolated case. It is the norm.
If so, then it's a bad teacher. Small sample size though, and you're generalizing conclusions about what, all American Math teachers and CPM from this ?
About the trig, I like to show students two methods. The memorized method, that includes dividing 2pi by the coefficient of x in the argument of the sin or cos function to get the period. And look at the factored argument to get the horizontal shift. But it's also (especially if graphing) nice to take the argument (however complex an expression it might be), call it U and solve U = 0 and U = 2pi to get the starting and ending x coordinates of one sin(U) or cos(U) cycle of the sin or cos function you're graphing. Of course you still need to get the amplitude and vertical shift, but that's easier for students.
Now, Marcus, a few quick questions for you:
Tell me a good geometry textbook being used in the American schools.
Tell me a good algebra textbook?
How about a good physics textbook?
Before you go and ahead and point me to some 900 page doorstop, think about this - what are the criteria that a good textbook must satisfy? Hint: the Russian math pedagosists have already figured this out 100 years ago. But for anybody who has actually studied math (and physics) properly, this should be obvious.
marcus
2017 May 5, 12:48pm
Yes, textbooks are a business and probably part of whats behind the whole "American Math teaching sucks" message is that it's perpetuated by publishers that are supposedly going to solve the curriculum problem.
I agree to a degree that there were great Math books in existence decades ago if not centuries ago.
Anyone interested in great little books on Algebra and Trigonometry to review (for adults) or to accompany your childs learning, these are great !
As for commercial books in wide use ?
Pearson has a lot of good books. One I know a lot of community colleges for intermediate algebra has an accompanying computer program called MyMathLab. But that's another conversation and points to the way things are going.
If so, then it's a bad teacher. Small sample size though, and you're generalizing conclusions about what, all American Math teachers and CPM from this ?
I have talked with many people and students. All the teachers in the school are like this. It is not a case of a single bad techer. The CPM approach is intrinsicly faulty. Furthermore, there are no criteria or controls for evaluating how the teachers apply this method. It just allows them to hide their laziness behind CPM.
The books you gave links above are decent; I have them. But they are not used in the schools and are not really appropriate as main textbooks.
About the trig,
And here's how I do it:
1. Plot cos(x) and sin(x)
2. Add a shift: cos(x) +a
3. Add an amplitude: Acos(x)
4. Now put 2 and 3 together.
5. Add a phase shift: cos(x+b)
6. Now put 4 and 5 together.
7. Add a frequency multiplier: cos(fx)
8. Now put everything.
9. Practice on your own: 10-20 examples with various combinations of a, A, b and f
10. Now complicate things even further, e.g. add an absolute value, or a sum of a trig function and a linear function, or make the argument non-linear.
It is points 10. and (to a leaser extend) 9. where you want the students confused, stuck for long time thinking and discovering. Not at points 1, 2, 3,..
marcus
2017 May 5, 1:11pm
The CPM approach is intrinsicly faulty.
This is your opinion. But if you can't acknowledge the positives that the the CPM method provides, then you aren't being honest. I get it, it's not the way you think it should be done. And you may even be right, that the best methods are in between what CPM does and the traditional approach. But if you can't acknowledge tohe good aspects of it, then I can't respect your opinion as anything more than emotion.
It just allows them to hide their laziness behind CPM.
Actually when first doing it, it's very hard to let go of being a control freak and letting the kids loose to explore and put things together on their own. I have difficulty with it becasue of how long it takes, and when I teach it, I combine with traditional and can't use their lessons all the time. Truth is I haven't taught CPM much, and I haven't done it well. But I find it WAY more difficult than traditional, so your laziness point doesn't hold up. Teachers find teachingthe CPM way VERY difficult.
The main thing you don't get is that the teachers do feel accountable, so it's very hard to let go with those collaborative student driven lessons. You really have know idea what drives the typical teacher.
MisdemeanorRebel
2017 May 5, 1:18pm
I wish we would replace Geometry and Trig with Logic, which would be far more useful for most people (and society generally).
The best thing to do would be to Reform English spelling, so we save months of time wasted. Even phonics can only do so much: Through, Bough, Though, Tough, Cough. Clue, Blue, Due, Rue but Clew, Blew, Dew. Glue and True, yet Threw and Pew. And settle the French vs. Dutch spelling for profit (more letters=more lines=more profit) from the time of the English Civil War.
The Spanish did it by saying "Starting on X date, any petitions, filings, etc. to the Royal Court must use the new spelling or it will be rejected."
It's funny people flip out over the milisecond it takes to double tap the spacebar, but are opposed to reforming the spelling which would slash months of learning, and probably weeks off lifetime of writing.
Why are you still sending your kid there? Put him on khan academy and curate his path at home.
What choice do I have? It's a top rated public school :) I didn't expect this based on our middle school experience.
Khan academy is good for explaining things but not for a complete education.
So I am going the home path way - math, physics and programming. I have ordered some soviet books from Mir publishing, some in English, some I'm translating. I'm also translating my old textbooks from midddle and high school (we had physics from 6th grade).
CBOEtrader
2017 May 5, 1:41pm
If so, then it's a bad teacher. Small sample size though, and you're generalizing conclusions about what, all American Math teachers and CPM from this ?
I have talked with many people and students. All the teachers in the school are like this. It is not a case of a single bad techer. The CPM approach is intrinsicly faulty. Furthermore, there are no criteria or controls for evaluating how the teachers apply this method. It just allows them to hide their laziness behind CPM.
Slow clap bro. W your dedication your son will certainly outpace his classmates. Test him against his Russian cousins and report back how the foreign students match up.
The CPM approach is intrinsicly faulty.
This is your opinion.
Not only my opinion.
1. It is the documented opinion of hundreds of educators - school and university. It is also the opinion of every single of my colleagues that I have discussed the matter with. These are theoretical physicists with degrees from Stanford, Berkeley, Princeton, MIT, Cornell, UIUC, Harvard and so on.
2. There is empirical evidence showing that CPM is inferior to the "traditional" approach.
3. There is no reliable, statistically significant evidence that CPM is better.
BTW, I never said there are no good aspect of CPM.
It is not uncommon for an entire US PHD physics department to have 100% foreign educated grad students. These are the affluent who have the money to attain a superficial credential.
Physics, Medicine, Engineering are the prime value added careers that formed the best and most sustainable businesses in the US. The US started outsourcing, and the foreigners kept increasing their STEMM.
The US is exactly where we designed our self to be.
Test him against his Russian cousins
I'm not Russian... neither Ukrainian, nor Belorussian.
Quants are graduate level people usually PHD's.
You consistently assume you know more than you know. This will always lead you to poor conclusions.
Quants is a broad term. This conversation was regarding entry level quantitative developers. Most of these people have the equivalent of undergrad or masters programs. On eastern Europe I am told they often recruit from tech trade schools.
Then you should have been more specific. My conclusion is drawn from the fact that common usage for the term quants, of which my cousin is a very good quant with a double Phd, is for a quantum analyst. Which is a phd position.
Maybe you could fill us in on what company is doing this recruiting and what eastern european schools they are recruiting from and let us draw specific conclusions based on actual facts rather than a broad based pontification on the state of US education based on a vague someone said something about something that may mean something to someone.
So where are all the eastern european countries that are doing better at math and science? Estonia, which is northern europe and has a population less than San Jose, is the only one that scores higher in both subjects.
This type of rankings are not very telling for several reasons. I'll explain later when I have time.
Pray tell I'm always willing to learn. It's the rankings that are used. Good or bad, it's what is out there. The rankings show more about income inequality and national wealth than anything about teaching. Also the weighting of subjects matters a lot. Finland students scores higher on number properties than US students but lower in algebra which carries a much lower weighting in TMISS for example. Stanford did a big study on this I read a few years ago, but I'm not seeing it online to link to.
MisdemeanorRebel
2017 May 5, 2:19pm
Translated Grade 4 (may not be equiv. to our Grade Four) Soviet Textbook.
ftp://math.stanford.edu/pub/papers/milgram/russian-grade-4-problems.pdf
Huge focus on the why and when to use Math, rather than "Just use the fucking formula" system I was taught.
marcus
2017 May 5, 2:19pm
2. There is empirical evidence showing that CPM is inferior to the "traditional" approach.
Could you share some of your best sources for this please ?
I get it that People that came up with traditional find it annoying. I did too. And still do with parts of it.
So what is it you think they are trying to accomplish with it ?
MisdemeanorRebel
2017 May 5, 3:14pm
@FP
You made me go down the Rabbit Hole... lots of Russian Math Classics here
http://www.cbspd.com/website/index.php/sciences/mathematics-and-statistics.html
marcus
2017 May 5, 6:20pm
It is points 10. and (to a leaser extend) 9. where you want the students confused, stuck for long time thinking and discovering. Not at points 1, 2, 3,..
True. But it was in an Algebra one class. Many don't even see the simplest right triangle trig until geometry. So is it so wrong to be exploring ? They will see more in trigonometry geometry, Algebra 2 and Precalc or trig.
What I was talking about in a paragraph above was graphing something like sin(3x + pi). Intentionally no altered amplitude or vertical shift.
Method one: it's sin(3(x+pi/3)) so the period is 2pi/3, and the horizontal shift is pi/3 to the left.
Method two: solve 3x + pi = 0, and 3x + pi = 2pi to get a starting point and end point for one full sin wave and graph the rest from there. Fool proof. Both methods assume an understanding of the function sin(x) .
Graduate in the US with a STEM degree as a US citizen, and the most likely outcome is that your application to STEM-related jobs that you actually want will be ignored. A few years later, even if industry does start hiring again, they'll write you off because you weren't able to find a job sooner.
Its a real vicious cycle. Lots of great US citizen talent is destroyed this way.
Patrick
2017 May 5, 9:25pm
I could not delete this comment. Invalid nonce.
Thanks for telling me. Will look into it.
From my experience as a teacher, the biggest threat to education in the sciences is the removal of all desktops in the science lab and replacing them with chromebooks.
Could you share some of your best sources for this please ?
Here - in no particular order and apologies is some of the links are not working any more; it has been awhile since I was reading them
(I have more sources, but they are scattered over emails that I've exchanged):
http://bonniewren.com/2005/cpm-math-vs-traditional-math.htm/comment-page-1
http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/study1.htm
http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/riley.html
https://patch.com/connecticut/fairfield/letter-data-shows-pilot-math-program-is-detrimental-t551c25d6ec
http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/polycmp.htm
http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/cpmwb.htm
http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/programs.htm
http://fairfieldmathadvocates.com/one-size-does-not-fit-all/
https://medium.com/@TP.Political/cpm-math-controversial-in-westerville-oh-9f8eb975cc40
« First « Previous Comments 38 - 77 of 84 Next » Last » Search these comments
Spoke to a trader at a large derivatives firm today.
He told me they stopped hiring quants from American schools, since they consistently score lower on the initial aptitude tests and entry level training programs. Whereas the eastern european students come in better prepared and more willing to work.
The good news is we are hiring these people here... a bigger problem will occur if/when the jobs emigrate to eastern euro with the talent.