patrick.net

Ok Dan, what would you think of a rally where they burned rainbow flags? Would that be "hate speech?" And how is that different from burning US flags? If it is?

My position is that both activities are free speech protected. However, like the White Supremacists at the Charlottesville protest discovered, freedom of speech only protects you against the government, not from being ostracized or fired if society or your company doesn't like what you said.

Debunked, you troll.

http://nflarrest.com/#ByYear This site says the arrest record is lower than the general population.
Can show me a site that has CONVICTIONS is excess of the normal population?

rocketjoe79 says

general population.

Not the general population, just young men aged 20-30, the most criminal age group. Where it is anywhere from 25% to 50% lower.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/26/us/nfl-players-arrests-study/index.html
I would HOPE that NFL Players who have prestige and money don't exactly need to commit crimes to get money or pussy.

It just means that millionaires on TV aren't quite as criminal as the most criminal group in America. It includes a great deal of property crime, not just violence. Again, would hope 7 figure players don't need to steal hubcaps or rob liquor stores for $135. And Domestic Violence wasn't included, because the FBI doesn't provide those numbers.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

It just means that millionaires on TV aren't quite as criminal as the most criminal group in America. It includes a great deal of property crime, not just violence. Again, would hope 7 figure players don't need to steal hubcaps or rob liquor stores for $135. And Domestic Violence wasn't included, because the FBI doesn't provide those numbers.

They commit other types of crimes. Cosby, OJ, Tyson.

Quigley says

Ok Dan, what would you think of a rally where they burned rainbow flags? Would that be "hate speech?" And how is that different from burning US flags? If it is?

No one is stating that burning flags, America, rainbow, or ISIS isn't protected speech. Also, hate speech is protected speech.

Nonetheless, my point stands. It is nonsensical to state that the NFL players are disrespecting the flag, and furthermore, it is dishonest to suggest that the NFL players are expressing hatred towards anyone, especially Americans. The only people expressing hatred towards Americans are the cops killing Americans, the courts protecting those cops, and the Americans who attack other Americans for trying to bring and end to the slaughter of the those Americans.

People have a right to free speech, but not a right to be respected for their speech. I've argued that the NFL players' speech is respectable and admirable whereas their detractors are not. No one has been able to show a compelling counterargument.

Quigley says

My position is that both activities are free speech protected.

That would be called Liberalism. It's a good philosophy, isn't it?



You should start listening to liberals.
www.youtube.com/embed/4Z2uzEM0ugY

Quigley says

However, like the White Supremacists at the Charlottesville protest discovered, freedom of speech only protects you against the government, not from being ostracized or fired if society or your company doesn't like what you said.

This has always been true. Try promoting communism in the 1950s. Try protesting a war in the 1960s. Try publishing a song called Cop Killer in the 1990s. Try saying anything political in public and see what happens when your boss finds out. Americans have never been protected from the social and financial consequences of their speech, rightfully or wrongfully. This is not a left vs. right issue. It's an issue of individualism vs conformity. America has always been a conformist society.

And this just makes my point even more poignant. The NFL players should be respected for taking the unpopular moral stand, whereas the ones ostracizing the NFL players should be ostracized in return for their moral weakness and hypocrisy.

Strategist says

The confederate flag, monuments, statues are all inanimate objects. It's what they symbolize that causes fights to break out.

The Confederacy was created for the SOLE purpose of keeping the institution of slavery. That is historical fact. To say otherwise is an outright lie.

The act of kneeling symbolizes solidarity and empathy for the past and future victims of murder, rape, and other crimes of cops including the families of people raped or murdered by cops as they suffer as well.

The people who are trying to silence the NFL players -- ironic since the protest are silent -- are not doing so to prevent people from "disrespecting" our country or symbols, but to cover up a shameful part of our country's past and present. This is painfully obvious. If those people were actually motivated by admiration for so-called American values, then they would be crying joyful tears at the sight of Americans calling attention for the grave injustices being inflicted on other Americans. They would see the protests as the epitome of all that is good about America, the realization of everything we want America to be.

Dan8267 says

That would be called Liberalism. It's a good philosophy, isn't it?

It's a good philosophy. Nevertheless, free speech can be disrespectful, and the NFL players were disrespectful.
Would the NFL players think it is disrespectful to pee on a statue of MLK? I'm sure they would.



Dan8267 says

And this just makes my point even more poignant. The NFL players should be respected for taking the unpopular moral stand

What is so moral about disrespecting the American flag or America. You are free to do so, but it clearly indicates anger and hate, just like I never respect the Koran.
Dan, if you think disrespecting America is moral, you should leave for a better country. A country you can respect for a change.

Strategist says

It's a good philosophy. Nevertheless, free speech can be disrespectful, and the NFL players were disrespectful.

You can assert that they were disrespectful, but can you justify that assertion? I can justify the assertion that those criticizing the NFL players are being disrespectful. Specifically, those people
- are showing complete apathy for the murder and rape of their fellow Americans.
- are more concern with the image of America than the lives of Americans.
- clearly do not believe in the principles of America such as making an unpopular stand against injustice.

So, defend your statement that the NFL players are being disrespectful. How exactly are they being disrespectful? Christ, kneeling is literally the most fucking respectful way they could have possibly protested. If that form of protest isn't respectful, what fucking possible protest would be?

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

It's a good philosophy. Nevertheless, free speech can be disrespectful, and the NFL players were disrespectful.

You can assert that they were disrespectful, but can you justify that assertion? I can justify the assertion that those criticizing the NFL players are being disrespectful. Specifically, those people
- are showing complete apathy for the murder and rape of their fellow Americans.
- are more concern with the image of America than the lives of Americans.
- clearly do not believe in the principles of America such as making an unpopular stand against injustice.

WTF. What are you saying?

Dan8267 says

So, defend your statement that the NFL players are being disrespectful. How exactly are they being disrespectful? Christ, kneeling is literally the most fucking respectful way they could have possibly protested. If that form of protest isn't respectful, what fucking possible protest would be?

What are they protesting?

Strategist says

What is so moral about disrespecting the American flag or America.

1. It is impossible to be disrespectful to an inanimate object like a flag or an imaginary construct like a country.
2. Respect must be earned. Americans have not earned respect precisely because of shameful behavior like murdering and raping innocent people.
3. We live in the Information Age. When our government does shameful things such as cops murdering people, that shame will be public. You cannot cover up shame in the Information Age. If you don't want to be ashamed of America, then stop our government and its agents, including police, from doing shameful things. You can only end the shame by ending the shameful acts.
4. Your stance illustrates my point that the condemnation of the NFL players have nothing to do with those players being at all disrespectful but rather Americans caring more about covering up their shame than they care about the lives of other Americans. And that is damn shameful.
5. Showing disrespect for those who commit atrocities, cover up those atrocities, or protect the criminals who commit those atrocities is very moral. The most moral and patriotic thing you can do is take an stand against the majority of your country or those in power who harm others. Exposing the problems, including moral reprehensible practices, is moral and patriotic precisely because it is necessary to correct the problems and stop others from being victimized.
6. The ONLY parts of American history that we deserve to be proud of are the parts exactly like the take a knee protest where individuals and groups took an unpopular stand against a grave injustice. The NFL players are on the right side of history and will be judged approvingly for it. Those condemning the NFL players are on the wrong side of history and will be judged accordingly.
7. To object at all of the take a knee protest is to say that some stupid nationalist practice means more than the lives of American men, women, and children. That is morally bankrupt.

Strategist says

Would the NFL players think it is disrespectful to pee on a statue of MLK? I'm sure they would.

How the fuck is peeing on an MLK statue analogous to kneeling during the national anthem to bring attention to Americans, including children, being murdered and raped with impunity? What would be the motivation of peeing on an MLK statue? Christ, man, do you not even consider intentions and purpose? Would you equate tearing down the statues of Saddam Hussein or Hitler to taking a dump on the American flag?

Strategist says

Dan, if you think disrespecting America is moral, you should leave for a better country. A country you can respect for a change.

If you don't respect America enough to change it, then you should leave for another country. If you want to live under blind nationalism, the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany would have been the place for you.

To say that you love America when you clearly do not have any empathy for Americans is pure hypocrisy. This is exactly why nations should not even have flags. They encourage blind nationalism and there is nothing morally upstanding or respectable about that. If you want to virtue signal, then show me that you care about your fellow Americans more than you do about some worthless symbol.

Dan8267 says

So, defend your statement that the NFL players are being disrespectful. How exactly are they being disrespectful? Christ, kneeling is literally the most fucking respectful way they could have possibly protested. If that form of protest isn't respectful, what fucking possible protest would be?

I'm not defending this on behalf of Strat. I'm sure he'll do that in his own way.

I've mentioned it or something similar in another thread. I don't think they're (NFL players) being disrespectful at all myself. I just don't think they know what the hell they're even kneeling for. This mass reaction was all towards Trump by the players. The cause was lost the second Trump trolled them. Prior to Trump's bump, of what was basically a non-issue at the time, there was probably less then 1-2 players on a team kneeling anymore. And I'm probably being generous. The players were getting no attention so no one was doing it anymore. The protest itself had become a mirror of what the actual issue was, nothing. Then Trump stirs the shit.

We've really got to stop pitting each other against one sides fraction of a fraction. There are bad cops. There are bad black people. There are bad white people. There are bad republicans. There are bad democrats. There are bad boomers. There are bad millenials. I'm all for working to get rid of the bad. I just think a lot of time is wasted on fringe issues when these fringe issues could potentially be reduced or even solved by going after the bigger problems.

How about we get jobs for white trash and inner city blacks? Then maybe the cops don't have to deal with them? Maybe enact things like term limits so there can't be career politicians that use their job as leverage? I don't claim to have a magic wand solution. But to get caught up in such fringe issues like bad cops, most likely policing fucked up neighborhoods, seems counter productive to me.

Whether anyone will admit it or not here, we all have more in common and more similar ideas then we would think. Especially if we were all sitting at a table in person. Yet we get sucked in the BLM, police lives matter, feminism, etc. bullshit in our keyboard warrior dome.

Dan8267 says

2. Respect must be earned. Americans have not earned respect precisely because of shameful behavior like murdering and raping innocent people.

So the NFL players, most of whom are criminals, are protesting against rape and murder? Really? ROFL ROFL ROFL.

Dan8267 says

5. Showing disrespect for those who commit atrocities, cover up those atrocities, or protect the criminals who commit those atrocities is very moral. The most moral and patriotic thing you can do is take an stand against the majority of your country or those in power who harm others. Exposing the problems, including moral reprehensible practices, is moral and patriotic precisely because it is necessary to correct the problems and stop others from being victimized.

That is why if I was a dictator, all hard core criminals would be dead. And yes, Dan, even hard core criminal cops.

Dan8267 says

6. The ONLY parts of American history that we deserve to be proud of are the parts exactly like the take a knee protest where individuals and groups took an unpopular stand against a grave injustice. The NFL players are on the right side of history and will be judged approvingly for it. Those condemning the NFL players are on the wrong side of history and will be judged accordingly.
7. To object at all of the take a knee protest is to say that some stupid nationalist practice means more than the lives of American men, women, and children. That is morally bankrupt.

I just got back from Gettysburg. 620,000 Americans died just so all slaves can be freed. And this is the thanks criminals who make millions give to America. Pathetic.

Dan8267 says

NFL players should be respected for taking the unpopular moral stand

Ok you're obviously not getting it. Perhaps a cultural divide is the issue, so let me break it down for you.
1. Fans like to watch football.
2. Fans often find it unbelievable that players get paid so much to essentially play a game. They also secretly envy the players for this privileged lifestyle, as it certainly is.
3. The players privileged lives are made possible by the dollars of fans who are mostly working class people with dreary or uninteresting jobs.
4. The fans have certain cultural similarities including patriotism, as their unifiers. Football acknowledges this with merchandise and traditions geared toward reinforcing a love of football as a quasi-patriotic past time. They even have fighter jets pass low over the stadium at each and every Super Bowl!
5. These fans fork out money for espn subscriptions, fan merchandise, tickets, beer, and memorabilia because they find unity with other fans in enjoying football.
6. When the players kneel in protest of the anthem, the fans see this a a break in the unity of love for sport and country. To them, the players are pissing on one of the key pillars that underpin their sport and thus their profession. When the players refuse to be patriotic, the fans see them as "the other," as outsiders, as foreigners reaping the rewards of the American football tradition while disrespecting our traditions in general.
7. This is intolerable to the fans that these privileged few would kneel, effectively saying that they are against the unity of country and tradition that affords them their very livelihoods!

You have to admit: when put in this context, the player protest is absolutely bonkers insane. If they wanted to quit and go be bouncers at various night clubs or day laborers pulling stumps, they should have just done so and not drug their sport down with them.

Strategist says

So the NFL players, most of whom are criminals, are protesting against rape and murder? Really? ROFL ROFL ROFL.

Don't change the subject. Even if your statement was true -- and it's just a lie -- it would be irrelevant. How the fuck is kneeling during the national anthem to bring public attention to the rape and murder of Americans so to stop those atrocities disrespectful? The only thing that seems to be disrespectful is the fake outrage at the protest and the complete disregard of American lives that outrage entails.

Strategist says

That is why if I was a dictator, all hard core criminals would be dead. And yes, Dan, even hard core criminal cops.

Then you should have zero problem with a protest designed to bring attention to the most hard-core criminals being protected by the very courts that should be prosecuting them. And remember, we're talking about criminals that have infiltrated and corrupted our law enforcement departments, criminals that threaten both public safety and the safety of honest, law-abiding cops. These should be the criminals that piss you off the most, and you should be damn supportive of the NFL protest if you are not a complete hypocrite.

Strategist says

I just got back from Gettysburg. 620,000 Americans died just so all slaves can be freed. And this is the thanks criminals who make millions give to America. Pathetic.

You want the descendants of slaves to be thankful that the country that enslaved their ancestors finally gave up slavery unwillingly? That's pretty low. If your ancestors were the slaves, you'd still be calling for blood. Slavers are the most despicable criminals. They commit a crime against humanity, and that's a crime regardless of the law.

Quigley says

Ok you're obviously not getting it.

Oh, I get it. It's called hypocrisy. Men are called to throw their lives down in war to protect our freedoms. We are then told we must give up those freedoms and endure indignities to protect ourselves from harm from terrorists. And then the most dangerous terrorists, those that have infiltrated our police departments, are not held accountable to the law when they terrorize communities. Yet, we cannot inconvenience football fans with the thought that maybe there are shameful things their country still does out of fear of triggering those special snowflakes in their safe space?
www.youtube.com/embed/XJUyPjguq6E?showinfo=false

You are entitled to nothing. You are not entitled to be ignorant of crimes. You are not entitled to the delusion that your country does not wrong. You are not entitled to having the shame of these crimes covered up and never spoken about. If this shame makes you uncomfortable, then good. That is the point of shame. You're suppose to not like it. That's natural way of getting you to change your behavior. The only way to wash away the shame is to stop the shameful crimes. That is why those entitled, whiny bitches complaining about the silent protest don't deserve an ounce of respect. They can shut the fuck up and show a little respect for Americans exercising the rights our soldiers died for, and using those rights to protect other Americans from rape and murder. That is the bottom line.

Strategist says

So the NFL players, most of whom are criminals, are protesting against rape and murder? Really? ROFL ROFL ROFL.

Which protesting players have been convicted of a crime? Most means more than half. Want to show that over half of NFL players have been convicted of a crime? ROFL. Starting to sound like TBP level ranting of nonsense.

What the NFL did is like Apple running an ad campaign mocking people who buy Half-Caff Soy Lattes or drive a Prius.

Dan8267 says

Slavers are the most despicable criminals.

We all agree with that. Likewise, those who gave their lives so that slaves could be free are the most decent human beings ever. How come you give no credit to them? where is the thanks? Where is the gratitude?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

What the NFL did is like Apple running an ad campaign mocking people who buy Half-Caff Soy Lattes or drive a Prius.

NFL fans are very diverse politically and economically. It is not like NASCAR for gods sakes!

bob2356 says

Want to show that over half of NFL players have been convicted of a crime?

Damn those are some loud crickets chirping.

Dan8267 says

You are entitled to nothing.

That's the exact lesson that Colin Kaepernick is learning right now. He's not entitled to a football career, even if he is an NFL class quarterback. He's not entitled to a risk-free consequence-free protest at his place of employment.

And neither are the other players. The NFL, their employer, is learning that it isn't entitled to fan dollars as their ratings drop and game attendance takes a nosedive. You must always first please the customer.

Thunderlips is correct. The NFL allowing and supporting these asinine protests is like Whole Foods dissing on vegetarians or Microsoft poking fun at computer geeks. Just stupid and self-defeating.

Quigley says

And neither are the other players. The NFL, their employer, is learning that it isn't entitled to fan dollars as their ratings drop and game attendance takes a nosedive. You must always first please the customer.

This should be interesting if the NFL really decides to punish protesting players. Nobody pays to see the owners walking the sidelines or watching the game from their skybox. It would be interesting if the players unite on this issue.

Strategist says

Likewise, those who gave their lives so that slaves could be free are the most decent human beings ever.

If that's what they actually had done, sure, but it's not. The South fought the war to preserve slavery, and the North fought the war to preserve the country. Neither side was noble, but the South was outright evil.

There were noble Americans, the abolitionist and criminals like Harriet Tubman who committed felonies running the Underground Railroad. I suppose you would throw Tubman into the human blender since she was a criminal. To me, a crime is not wrong when the law is not right. Breaking some laws is the most noble thing you can do. Every one of our founding fathers was a felon, having committed the highest of crimes, treason against the crown. Just remember that.

joeyjojojunior says

This should be interesting if the NFL really decides to punish protesting players. Nobody pays to see the owners walking the sidelines or watching the game from their skybox. It would be interesting if the players unite on this issue.

There's already an established system for punishing players who act against the owners wishes. They get fined. The fines can be quite large! Tens of thousands of dollars per offence! So I think this protest won't be worth it to many if the league gets serious about this. Nobody had to be fired. Fines will deter improper behavior just fine.

Quigley says

There's already an established system for punishing players who act against the owners wishes. They get fined. The fines can be quite large! Tens of thousands of dollars per offence! So I think this protest won't be worth it to many if the league gets serious about this. Nobody had to be fired. Fines will deter improper behavior just fine.

Like I said--we'll see. It depends on how unified the players can be.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/21470/nfls-free-speech-kneeling-anthem-fine-fighting-hank-berrien
All of these examples are better causes than the disjointed and emotional protest against the anthem. But they all got fined anyway.
$5787 for supporting breast cancer cure.
$5787 for wearing purple shoes to raise awareness about domestic violence (which kills 1700 women each year, way more than the few dozen wrongly killed by crooked cops).
$5787 for supporting the fight against bone cancer by a player whose dad died of that disease.

The league can shut this all down tomorrow if they want to.

Quigley says

All of these examples are better causes than the disjointed and emotional protest against the anthem.

Even if those causes are "better" in your opinion, they aren't mutually exclusive with the protests against the murders and rapes of your fellow Americans.

The best thing that could have happened to Kaepernick was that the league fined him properly for failing to adhere to policy. He would have stopped and then this story would have been over before it began. He would still have a football career, and probably had to break up with his SJW Muslim girlfriend.

Really, the league fucked up here. These players aren't smart. They didn't get pulled out of surgical residencies to run a ball down a field. They need guidance from the league to stay out of trouble.

If kneeling for the national anthem as free speech is fine with the NFL, but speaking out for the fights against breast cancer and domestic violence as well as highlighting mental health issues is a problem, the league deserves whatever derision it receives.

The IF part isn't true, so the conclusion isn't true. Example, if the Earth is about to be consumed by a black hole, it doesn't matter if ISIS controls the Middle East. Sure, but since the Earth isn't, the conclusion does not follow.

The owners were wrong to fine the players in those matters.