patrick.net

WookieMan the main factor most seem to ignore is the well capitalized futures market full of fat cats who are staring at the 170bil setting there to be claimed, which before futures existed there was no practical or effective way to short so price discovery has been skewed big time.... Most of the crypto market is populated with very new ppl who have never traded anything except BTC which is OTC and the risk are penny stock like in nature. I am a believer in the tech however the noob pool needs cleaning they are so out of their league and the fat cats are not going to let them keep that easy money imo...

anon_ec6de says

It’s more fun investing in BTC

Trading. It's called trading. Which is fine, make money. Explain the investment portion? I've always understood the trading aspect. Most people do.

anon_ec6de says

Put your ten bucks in stocks and get excited about 2-5% increases!

Try this:

$18,500 into a 401K individually (tax free. compounding.)

$6,900 into a HSA family plan (tax free. compounding & can pay for medical expenses tax free)

$5,500 into a Roth (if you can. tax free withdrawls at retirement)

If I didn't do the first two (can't do the 3rd) and invested in BTC instead, I'd be pissing away 33% immediately if you factor in my top end tax bracket for 2017. So I've already pissed and dumped shit all over the 2-5% gains you mention. That 33% gain is immediately invested along with the rest of the money. That money then compounds over time in a vehicle that has consistently put out 7% returns over the long term. And I don't have to waste time "watching" it until I'm near my retirement years unlike having to watch BTC daily at minimum.

Please explain how BTC will do better than this? You can't. It's not possible. Wish you luck in your trading.

anon_2fbc3 says

I am a believer in the tech however the noob pool needs cleaning they are so out of their league and the fat cats are not going to let them keep that easy money imo...

I honestly don't understand the tech, so I'm showing my bias I suppose. I 100% believe there's massive manipulation in this market. I don't think anyone has the slightest clue who holds what and how much. Factor in the potential for the stolen coins (likely would be traded) or completely lost coins and it's the wild west. And yes, people made a shit load of money in the wild west.

I'm happy with my model for retirement. I have no interest in getting rich quick even though that sounds backward. I'm getting rich quicker than most, which is fine by me.

Nice note from one of your trusted BTC exchanges, Coinbase:

Dear Valued Customer,

Over the last two days, some customers who recently purchased digital currency with a Visa credit or debit card may have seen duplicate transactions posted to their cardholder accounts.

This issue was not caused by Coinbase. Please see our blog post for additional detail (also copied below).

Recommended steps to follow

Check your statement — Please check your bank statement to ensure that you have not received duplicate charges. If duplicate charges have appeared, your bank should automatically post a refund within the next few days
Contact your bank — If duplicate charges have not been refunded and/or if you have received other related charges (e.g., overdraft fees), please reach out to your bank to request that these charges be refunded
Contact Coinbase Support — If your bank fails to refund these charges, please follow up with Coinbase Support early next week

Though we did not initiate these charges, we are deeply sorry for any inconvenience or hardship this has caused.

Thank you for being a customer.

Regards,

The Coinbase Team

-------------

The following is a joint statement from Visa and Worldpay:

Over the last two days, some customers who used a credit or debit card at Coinbase may have seen duplicate transactions posted to their cardholder accounts.

This issue was not caused by Coinbase.

Worldpay and Coinbase have been working with Visa and Visa issuing banks to ensure that the duplicate transactions have been reversed and appropriate credits have been posted to cardholder accounts. All reversal transactions have now been issued, and should appear on customers’ credit card and debit card accounts within the next few days. We believe the majority of these reversals have already posted to accounts. If you continue to have problems with your credit or debit card account after this reversal period, including issues relating to card fees or charges, we encourage you to contact your card issuing bank.

We deeply regret any inconvenience this may have caused customers.

Yes, this bear has a coinbase account. Why no source link to Visa with their statement? Go to the blog, no link to Visa making a statement either? You trust these companies with your "investment?" I don't.

WookieMan says

I have no interest in getting rich quick even though that sounds backward.

Sounds logical to me.

BTC is one helluva conundrum. It's backed by nothing, but neither is any currency.

The BTC technology would make it preferable to currencies, IF the risk problems could be fixed. However, the dollar would most likely need to die first.

This is a super high risk, potentially high reward gamble that I'm only willing to make for a few thousand $$ at a time.

Sink your retirement into this fiat currency at your own peril. I hope the guy who goes all in comes back and brags about his 100 million gain... I still can't "invest" in bitcoin.

I've been told investing in block chain tech firms may be a nice move though I haven't yet done research on any.

Wookie,
“Please explain how BTC will do better than this? You can't. It's not possible. ”

You are comparing your 33% retirement thingy with crypto? That’s cute. Litecoin, ethereum and many other made over 7000% last year. That’s not just another planet it’s another universe. Of course I put money in my 401k and my company matches it. You can do both, save in your 401k and make a killing with crypto.

I'm impressed with the thought put into the design of Bitcoin, and that it's truly outside of the control of any government. But I'm not sure if the market for conversion to/from dollars is being manipulated. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out it is.

Wookie, the coinbase bashing is a bit silly. You can buy through gdax (part of coinbase) without paying fees. Nobody ever recommended to buy crypto on a debit or credit card. You can buy cryptos instantly by initiating a bank transfer through coinbase. I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos. Every market has those people. While coinbase is not perfect it’s a legit exchange.

anon_3a1a3 says

Wookie, the coinbase bashing is a bit silly. You can buy through gdax (part of coinbase) without paying fees.

Yeah, I didn’t buy anything. Just doing research. As I’ve mentioned multiple times here I know nothing about this stuff. Would NEVER put anything like this on a credit card. I don’t believe a lot of people here and elsewhere really know what they’re doing either outside of just trading this. I can make a lot of money at a casino, but wouldn’t call it investing, would you? Not sure how crypto is different.

Which again, go for it. I don’t care. I like casinos occasionally. We have comments here though pointing out 7,000% gains. Apparently this stuff just never goes down and I’m missing out on my consistent 7,000% gain per year. Not you particularly, but it’s astounding how irrational people can become about making easy money.

My question stands though, Coinbase blames it on Visa yet they wouldn’t source Visa saying it? Seems strange. I’d have zero faith in any of these “exchanges” but hey, your money, not mine.

Just let me know what you exchange your crypto for when you have massive gains. I’m sure you’ll just hold it and buy stuff, right? I mean it’s a currency and all. Very stable one at that. Please tell me you won’t convert them to US $’s? Cause if you do that, the fatal flaw of crypto is staring you right in the face. The rush to the exits is coming. Just be ready.

Wookie, you are over thinking. the question to ask is which coin is going to moooon next? ;)

anon_3a1a3 says

Wookie, you are over thinking

I know.

“I’d have zero faith in any of these exchanges”.
Similiar here. Most traders advise not to leave money (usd or crypto) on the exchange and move your crypto to a offline hardware wallet (trezor or ledger nano s) Your token are on the block chain but your private keys to access your currency are safe on a offline hardware wallet. Most traders who own a significant value of crypto, store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.

anon_3a1a3 says

I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos.

The last report I saw said it was like 25% of buyers.

anon_3a1a3 says

store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.

Help me understand here? People buy crypto to get away from government control of the finance system, but then go put their wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank, that they don't control and which is under government control (by regulations).

??????????????

Sniper says

anon_3a1a3 says

store that hardware wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank.

Help me understand here? People buy crypto to get away from government control of the finance system, but then go put their wallet in a safe deposit box at a bank, that they don't control and which is under government control (by regulations).



I agree to some extend. There are def. people who think/want Cryptocurrency to replace our current monetar system and take over. However, I think over the years crypto fans realize you need to work with the system not against. (Pay your taxes etc.) now, it seems that the “system” even sees value in blockchain tech and wants to regulate it instead of banning it.
I totally agree though that it’s funny if you have a bitcoin fanboy thinking that btc will hurt banks but then go and store the private keys at a bank!
Personally, I am just in it for the money. I store my hardware wallet at a bank, pay my taxes and don’t invest more than I am willing to lose.

Sniper says

anon_3a1a3 says

I would say a minor noob percentage of traders would utilize a cc to buy cryptos.

The last report I saw said it was like 25% of buyers.

Boy, I just read an article about it and I have to admit I was wrong. 25% is not minor....thats way too many. If you buy crypto with a cc that’s desperation. That reminds me of “lottery is a poor man’s tax”.

Crypto is going to be a tragic story for the very large majority 95% BTC owners will crash and burn.... They have very pre-packaged herd ideas about how markets work however have little to no real knowledge of market theory much less the idea BTC is OTC, 0-sum market with risk levels at the extreme. I've followed a few forums discussing crypto and most are absolutely blind as to risk and the ones who use it are mocked, not so much now though ;) They now will learn respect for the market and it's players or just become the money source for those who do or leave the space altogether. It's very hard to describe how naive the pool really is however probability says a big shit storm is about to sweep them away and drown them with their high priced over leveraged 2nd 3rd and more trades placed after their low buys that are now not holding the weight of the nose bleeders...

Noobs don't short, don't sell claiming to be investors w/o SLs, buy breakouts primarily which have a high rate of failure instead of buying dips and trade the news. lol 1 of the funniest concepts I hear is how the whales are going to march in and save BTC when in fact very few have read the platform disclosures that plainly state they will be counter to their trades at times, exchanges are whales and do hedge using the trader data and AIs against them... 0-sum is 0-sum and all capital is at risk...

Crypto is similar to stocks, it goes up over time. It’s based on speculation that crypto has utility and will become part of our daily life/internet of things. As of now It’s like investing in start ups. But As more and more cryptos get adopted in our payment system, values and acceptance by the public will go up. Blockchain is not going away. That ship has sailed, the US is big on embracing the tech and regulating it.

Get your popcorn out and watch the epic shit storm coming to cryptoland very soon.... Keep an eye out for 12100-12200 if/when it can actually pony up that much chumming the FOMOs $$$ to get it there.... Should be lots of fun watching the billions being snatched away from the noob population with total ease.... I understand the comparison to the stock market and respect that opinion however my many years of trading both Stock and OTC markets know there are stark differences...

If I understand correctly, you are saying btc will hit heavy resistance (like right now) and corrects down hard. Noobs will panic sell? Yes there might be Stark differences between crypto and stocks but basic TA can be applied similar to stocks wouldn’t you agree?

I'm heating my home with BitCoin mining rigs this winters. Its a win, win, win. What could go wrong?
For instance, even after a nearly 60% swoon in its price, bitcoin mining still comes with a better than $3,500-per-coin margin in the United States, based on its average electricity-based mining cost of $4,758 per coin. Fool me once...

anon_e3e56 says

Yes there might be Stark differences between crypto and stocks but basic TA can be applied similar to stocks wouldn’t you agree?

Totally agree however the main diff is confirmation premiums, circuit breakers when the $$$s who actually move this market pulls the liquidity price can jam past any and all stops due to the vacancy of buyers on the other side locking in untold masses at high prices... ..... anon_3e01a says

I'm heating my home with BitCoin mining rigs this winters. Its a win, win, win. What could go wrong?

lol I totally support the tech and there are fortunes yet to be made and great buys on mining rigs.

Great time to buy the dip!

Coinbase tells 13,000 users their data will be sent to the IRS soon.

Coinbase told its customers on Friday that it plans to comply with a court order and hand over about 13,000 customers’ data to the IRS within 21 days. The IRS made the request back in November 2016, asking for the Coinbase records of all the people who bought bitcoin from 2013 to 2015 to seek out those who were evading cryptocurrency taxes.

The data requested includes taxpayer IDs, names, dates of birth, addresses, and transaction records from that period.

It informed its 13,000 affected customers that the “court order requires us to produce information specific to your account,” but that the company could not provide legal or tax advice. So far, 2018 is shaping up to be the year that tax collectors get serious about bitcoin earnings, meaning that it’s a good time to be extra careful about compliance.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17055264/coinbase-cryptocurrency-tax-irs-compliance-court-order

Well, the good news, you should be able to deduct all your losses on your taxes. WINNING!!

Your losses??? What are you talking about? Bitcoin was at 1k beginning of 2017 and is now at 10k. Litecoin, ethereum made over 7,000 % in 2017.
As far as coinbase and the irs goes....I wish coinbase would have sent me the tax forms. I had to download my activity on the exchanges and import it to bitcoin.tax for my profit and loss and tax liability output. Took 30min that I don’t get back. Hopefully this will be easier in the future. I would live an import function on turbo tax so that it links with coinbase.

Oh well, crypto is still early stage. Now that Wall Street wants a piece of the pie. Crypto is going to explode in 2018. I loaded up on the last dip. Can’t wait for the next bull run!!

anon_3a1a3 says

Crypto is going to explode in 2018.

2020 for sure!
Why shouldn't a fiat bunch of bits not be worth more than all the silver in the world?
Buy now or be priced out F O R E V E R !

Nobody ever said buy now or be priced out forever with crypto. It does not make sense because you can always buy a satoshi (fraction of a bitcoin) and don’t need to buy a whole one to be able to participate/invest. Further more, ETFs will be a great way to start investing in the near future.

As far as backing of a fiat currency goes. The dollar is no longer backed by the gold standard. Central banks can print as much as they want.

anon_52590 says

Nobody ever said buy now or be priced out forever with crypto.

I did.
anon_52590 says

start investing

Invest in currency? Gamble is a better term.
anon_52590 says

As far as backing of a fiat currency goes. The dollar is no longer backed by the gold standard.

Central bank currencies are no longer backed by anything but the faith, good credit, and the militairy of the countries backing said fiat currencies. What backs crypto?

anon_52590 says

Central banks can print as much as they want.

But we're running out of bits to "mine"?

Yea, to me it’s not gambling. It made me a lot of money. Once the mainstream money comes in it will actually become big. As of now the marketcap is not even close to the stock market cap during the dot com bubble. This baby has legs. But, I am not here to convince anybody. If you don’t believe in the tech and rather invest in stocks that is totally fine. I am not a financial advisor. Just a happy crypto investor. It’s exciting and very profitable

anon_52590 says

It’s exciting and very profitable

It's NOT profitable, it's just digits on a screen.

Until you cash out, and have the cash firmly in your hand, all you got is promises and dreams.

Of course I cash out. So far every time one of my coins mooned I took profits. I am fine with 4-5x on my initial investment. Sure 10x would be better but it’s also riskier.

anon_52590 says

Yea, to me it’s not gambling. It made me a lot of money.

I'll disagree with the gambling part here. It truly is gambling. As I've always said, make money on this where you can. I don't begrudge anyone that can and does.

anon_52590 says

As of now the marketcap is not even close to the stock market cap during the dot com bubble. This baby has legs.

Not sure what the dot com bubble has to do with made up currencies. Make money, but when I hear "this baby has legs" I tend to run the other direction from the person that said this. It means nothing. It's made up jargon that people think makes them look smart about something they know nothing about. And this is 100% of people talking about crypto currencies. 100%. So I'm not talking about a user here.

anon_52590 says

If you don’t believe in the tech and rather invest in stocks that is totally fine. I am not a financial advisor. Just a happy crypto investor. It’s exciting and very profitable

This is one of the more candid cypto bull lines I've seen here at least. You've hit the nail on the head. It's exciting. And if you're happy congrats. You at least acknowledge that the market is totally hinged on excitement and that's really it. This is the case in many markets of course. Most have some other backing or support as to why someone would be excited about it though. New product. Increasing sales. Warren Buffet bought X number of shares.

You don't have to believe my patnet persona, but I will be retired by 48 with plenty of money without jumping into the crypto pool. 80-90% of people will fail if given or have invested and gained fuck you money through crypto. The money will gained will be lost. Isn't it funny that Harvard, Yale, etc are such great schools? Why don't we just send everyone there and everyone will just be smarter? We all know it doesn't work that way. You can shoot to the moon with crypto and you'll likely crash and burn shortly after. This is just the reality.

Have fun, but there's a reason certain people/families get rich and stay that way. Luck can be a part of it, but maintaining and increasing wealth once you have it isn't luck.

My prediction for the next years: I sell after parabolic run ups and wait for a correction/crash to buy back in. Each time it goes down the haters and perma bears come out in droves and scream I told you so. Bitcoin is dead. Slowly those voices fade as big daddy starts running up again. Then they tell you how successful they all are without crypto and how they all retire early. Same spiel over and over. Works for me.

anon_3a1a3 says

I sell after parabolic run ups and wait for a correction/crash to buy back in.

This sounds like a logical plan... for almost any stock. Why will there be continued parabolic run ups in crypto though? Is there any technical data or research to support that it will continue this way? Why do you assume you'll always be on the winning end of this massive volatility as well? If crypos gain popularity more and more, why would governments with their own currencies just let that happen? Essentially assisting in their own country's demise? How many coins are in circulation and aren't forever lost or stolen? What institutions are holding and how much?

I've got a laundry list of questions, almost all of which can't be answered by the crypto bulls. And please don't say "big daddy" either. This thread reeks of the content on a pinkie forum with some of the lingo being tossed about like it makes someone knowledgeable about something they're not. There's not one person on this planet that can predict what is going to happen with crypto unless it's someone in the US, Chinese or Japanese government for the most part.

Cause people like to invest in it. Why wouldn’t there be run ups. It comes down to Fomo and FUD.
It worked for me in the past. See no reason for it to stop.
The FUD about governments banning it will never get old. Good for me as I like to buy the dips.
US regulators like blockchain. The need for regulations will justify bigger budgets for their departments. Win-win. And The IRS likes the increase in tax revenues due to crypto. All these existing crypto projects/start ups create jobs.
2008: we have an app for it
2018: we have an ICO for it
The rest of your questions seem a bit useless. I don’t care what coins are stolen or lost. Lost coins are a bullish sign as these coins can’t be sold.
More and more institutional money will enter the space. ETFs will be huge for crypto. Imagine the crypto ETFs become part of the investing mix in the US. I think we have seen nothing yet.

anon_3a1a3 says

I think we have seen nothing yet.

You will. Give it time.

anon_3a1a3 says

The rest of your questions seem a bit useless.

Silly acronyms aside, you addressed none of the questions. So I suppose they were useless. Or couldn't be answered, as most crypto bulls can't.

IF cryptos are sooooo valuable, why does every single coin have a conversion to dollars? Hell, bitcoin is valued in dollars to Americans. I'll ask this of the gold and silver bugs too, what kind of society do you think we have where bitcoin, gold or silver would be a means to complete transactions? Unless you're uber wealthy (with dollars of course) or have a massive arsenal of weapons, you'd be dead. You do understand that we intentionally kill innocent people to keep the $ as the worlds reserve currency, right?

For some reason crypto currencies will be allowed to grow enough in popularity to knock off the dollar? As I've said in other comments, you're rooting for your own countries demise if you want cryptos to succeed. Most of these are coins started in Asia. You think they want to keep the status quo with USA being top dog? You don't think there are foreign government with their hands in these crptos already? As a citizen, I'm actually pissed more hasn't been done to knock the shit off. Obama and Trump have been asleep at the wheel on this in my opinion. And I could give zero shits about tax revenue. Crypto is a raindrop in the Pacific.

Also, lost coins can be found and sold. What would you do with 1M bitcoin right now if you were presented with a hard drive containing them? I'm sure you'd just hold onto them, wait for big daddy to get legs and sell them at $20k. Oh wait, did I just put a dollar sign in front, whoops. You see, there's ZERO value in bitcoin until you convert it to..... DOLLARS!

Everyone has to stop with the blockchain bit too. The analogy in this article is that it's basically a fucking google sheets document. This is somehow earth shattering tech? https://blockgeeks.com/guides/what-is-blockchain-technology/ The fact is, cryptos don't have to exist for the good 'ole USA to use blockchain. Certain people WANT them to exist and blockchain is the reason, I guess?

As usual with my comments, I have no problem with you trading (stop saying investing) and making money. You can harm society worse in other ways when compared to trading in bitcoin. So I don't have a problem with it. That said, cryptos honestly have a very cultish feel to them if that makes sense. Just remember that some people are able to get out of the cult, but a lot don't make it.

HYHFTB (Hope You Have Fun Trading Bitcoin) AMOLAK (And Make Out Like A King). Acronyms are cool! I know, I know, usually A doesn't get included in acronyms. This A had some serious FOMO so I figured I'd include him.

Lol, you really like to get into it. Sry I’m not your guy to go back and forth. Invest in it or don’t. Big daddy is going to rock this year :) my bet is it will reach 30k and we will see 1trillion market cap for crypto!

What's the only thing worse than buying Bitcoin with a credit card? How about selling Bitcoin to someone in a credit card transaction. Here's The Woz's tale of woe.
“Somebody bought them from me online through a credit card and they cancelled the credit card payment. It was that easy. And it was from a stolen credit card number so you can never get it back.”