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2nd Amendment Discussion


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2018 Feb 17, 11:51am   257,424 views  1,312 comments

by CajunSteve   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

With all the talk about the school shootings, let's take a look at what the 2nd Amendment actually says:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Couple things to note in there:

1. The specific mention of a militia being the reason for the need to bear arms.
2. The 2nd Amendment never mentions the word gun at all.

So, what exactly is the definition of "arms"?

In 1755 Dr. Johnson’s Dictionary of the English Language was first published. It defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.”

Weapons of offence would seem to include pretty much anything and everything, from knives to nuclear weapons. The US has already seen fit to ban some weapons of offence so the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.

So it then becomes a question of which weapons should be banned, which should be strictly regulated, and which should be lightly regulated or not at all. Like anything else, we should weigh an individual's right with society's right. When looked at in that manner, it becomes very difficult to justify why fully automatic or semi automatic rifles should be allowed. What purpose do they serve an individual? And why would that purpose outweigh the extreme damage those weapons have cased society??

Patrick thinks the Chamber of Commerce is the worst organization, and he may be correct, but the NRA is not far behind.



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130   Goran_K   2018 Feb 20, 1:48pm  

bob2356 says
No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.

Nice try sniper.


Uh how would anyone even know this or get accurate information about this?

As a matter of fact and culture, gun owners aren't very open about what they have inside their home. Gun owners aren't going to be like, "Yeah I have guns inside my house. 17 exactly."

That sounds ridiculous.
131   anonymous   2018 Feb 20, 1:54pm  

anon_cf6c6 says
Criminals do not follow laws.

Newly created and potential future laws will be ignored by criminals.

People who are not criminals do follow laws.


By this logic, we should get rid of all laws. Criminals don't follow them, after all.
132   Goran_K   2018 Feb 20, 1:55pm  

anon_8f378 says
By this logic, we should get rid of all laws. Criminals don't follow them, after all.


Uh no. That's not what people are saying.

You need to have laws that are calibrated to stop the problem WHILE also working to not deny people, who have done nothing wrong, their rights.

Hyperbole on either side is not useful or productive.
133   anonymous   2018 Feb 20, 3:25pm  

anon_8f378 says
By this logic, we should get rid of all laws. Criminals don't follow them, after all.


By Liberal logic, if we just passed NEW laws, the criminals will follow them, even though they don't follow existing laws.
134   HappyGilmore   2018 Feb 20, 5:00pm  

Goran_K says
Uh no. That's not what people are saying.


I'm not sure to which people you refer, but the posters on here absolutely are saying that.

Goran_K says

You need to have laws that are calibrated to stop the problem WHILE also working to not deny people, who have done nothing wrong, their rights.

Hyperbole on either side is not useful or productive.


Yep, I agree. Unfortunately the NRA won't allow ANY laws to be passed that might affect the ability of someone to get a assault rifle--no matter if they are mentally ill, teenaged, whatever. I'm all for a rational discussion of facts, but that's very hard to find because one side desperately wants to avoid it.
135   anonymous   2018 Feb 20, 7:44pm  

HappyGilmore says
Unfortunately the NRA won't allow ANY laws to be passed that might affect the ability of someone to get a assault rifle


Ahhh, the Chuck Schumer talking points. Nice.

HappyGilmore says
I'm all for a rational discussion of facts, but that's very hard to find because one side desperately wants to avoid it.


Exactly.

Stop watching CNN and you'll learn true facts, not FAKE hyperbole they spew all day long.
136   anonymous   2018 Feb 20, 8:50pm  

HappyGilmore says
I'm all for a rational discussion of facts,


137   zzyzzx   2018 Feb 21, 9:05am  

I have a challenge to our anti- 2nd amendment people. Post this in your yard:

139   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Feb 21, 9:30am  

Liberals:
"Guns are only for the Militia"

Also Liberals:
"So let's have our Modern Militia be armed with Blackpowder Muskets!"
141   Goran_K   2018 Feb 21, 9:48am  

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Liberals:
"Guns are only for the Militia"

Also Liberals:
"So let's have our Modern Militia be armed with Blackpowder Muskets!"


I love it.

Liberals: "Trump is literally Hitler!"

Also Liberals: "Trump needs to take away all of our guns!"
142   NuttBoxer   2018 Feb 21, 11:32am  

CajunSteve says
the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.


Gonna stop you right there. If truth is allowed to be re-defined every time it doesn't suit the current ruling class, then who gives a fuck what intent was? Just look to the current leadership as god almighty, and bow to their statue daily.

Now that we're past that driveling intelligence of worm-slaves, let me point out that when we fought the most powerful empire in the world, without a standing army, we used the same/or better guns than what the British had. By today's standards that means every citizens should be in possession of an m16. So yes, we're being systematically fucked out of our 2nd amendment right to defend our freedom.
143   anonymous   2018 Feb 21, 12:35pm  

Goran_K says

Liberals: "Trump is literally Hitler!"

Also Liberals: "Trump needs to take away all of our guns!"


And more strawman arguments.

Liberals believe neither of those two statements.

I'll help you out-- Trump's authoritarian nature reminds some people of Hitler. Not--Trump is literally Hitler.
And--Trumps needs to enact common sense gun control. Not--Trump needs to take away all of our guns.
144   anonymous   2018 Feb 21, 12:50pm  

NuttBoxer says
Gonna stop you right there. If truth is allowed to be re-defined every time it doesn't suit the current ruling class, then who gives a fuck what intent was?


How do you distinguish between "re-defining" and "determining intent"? One is when you agree and the other is when you don't?

NuttBoxer says
Now that we're past that driveling intelligence of worm-slaves, let me point out that when we fought the most powerful empire in the world, without a standing army, we used the same/or better guns than what the British had. By today's standards that means every citizens should be in possession of an m16. So yes, we're being systematically fucked out of our 2nd amendment right to defend our freedom.


That sure seems like an insult there, but no matter. But, you're hitting on a key point here. The citizens were in a militia. Which is what the 2nd Amendment protects. So strictly interpreting the 2nd Amendment, which is what you seem wont to do, would necessitate any gun owner need be a member of a militia.
145   thenuttyneutron   2018 Feb 21, 1:29pm  

https://www.facebook.com/100007513365065/videos/1993503840910042/
This one made me laugh. A guy cuts the barrel of his AR-15 in half in protest to these rifles being in the hands of civilians. He violated the NFA by creating an illegal SBR (short barrel rifle) on video and then posted it online. Illegal manufacture of a SBR without paying the stamp tax of $200 and getting ATF approval carries a minimum 10 year prison sentence.
146   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Feb 21, 1:30pm  

Goran_K says
Liberals: "Trump is literally Hitler!"

Also Liberals: "Trump needs to take away all of our guns!"


Brilliant! OrangeDouche the Billionaire Real Estate Tycoon Tyrant! Who will kill us all! Please take my guns away!
147   anonymous   2018 Feb 21, 1:33pm  

anon_8f378 says
Trumps needs to enact common sense gun control.


Please explain what is "common sense gun control"? This punch line, talking point is as bad as saying "ban assault weapons (which don't exist in fact).

anon_8f378 says
The citizens were in a militia. Which is what the 2nd Amendment protects. So strictly interpreting the 2nd Amendment, which is what you seem wont to do, would necessitate any gun owner need be a member of a militia.


Wow, there are no words...

By definition, all American citizens, if not employed by the government, are part of the current militia.

Just wow.
148   anonymous   2018 Feb 21, 2:09pm  

anon_cf6c6 says
By definition, all American citizens, if not employed by the government, are part of the current militia.


I'm sorry--by what definition? What's the name of the militia? Who is in charge of it? When do they meet?
151   Malcolm   2018 Feb 21, 3:31pm  

anon_8f378 says
I'm sorry--by what definition? What's the name of the militia? Who is in charge of it? When do they meet?


In theory, when there is a threat to the citizenship by a foreign invader, as a check if a tyrant were to seize power (not just someone you don't agree with), and most recently, in the case of domestic terrorism or insurrection.
152   NuttBoxer   2018 Feb 21, 3:40pm  

anon_8f378 says
How do you distinguish between "re-defining" and "determining intent"?


I like to go with the 10th amendment on that one.

anon_8f378 says
The citizens were in a militia


Not everyone who fought in The Revolution was in a militia. See my reference to no standing army. And again, "Farmer Brown", had a rifle that rivaled, and more often surpassed, the ones used by the military of England. Compare that to what a citizen can own today.
153   Malcolm   2018 Feb 21, 3:41pm  

There are some arguments that say the state National Guard units are the militia. I believe that the second amendment is simply recognizing a right to self protection. This was not controversial at the time, but the founding fathers were concerned that without gun ownership, citizens could become subjects.

There are too many instances of people thwarting home invasions and robberies to dismiss the need for self protection, even in modern stable times. My mother actually did draw a pistol on a wouldbe burglar when we all lived in Georgia. Lucky for him, the safety gave him a chance to get away. I do think cell phones have helped keep people safe. I see no need for public carrying of rifles, but if it were up to me, everyone who can legally own a gun should be able to carry a small concealed weapon with a stiff penalty for those who do so illegally.
154   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Feb 21, 4:30pm  

National Guard is not the militia. The militia can be called to defend the state or territory, and is not subject to deployment overseas.

The National Guard has been deployed overseas, and there was a SCOTUS case in the 80s that ruled against Minnesota (I think) that didn't want to release Guard units for service in Central America - "The Guard isn't the Militia"
155   Malcolm   2018 Feb 21, 4:33pm  

TwoScoopsPlissken says
"The Guard isn't the Militia"


Thanks for clarifying. It has been used as an argument by anti second amendment people. I will research this, but I like your counterpoint.
156   cynn   2018 Feb 21, 4:41pm  

Then what is the National Guard? We need a supermagnet that can harvest all the deadly, meaning deadly to people, guns and suck them all up! The deadly to irrelevant people guns, just hide under your bed.
157   ForcedTQ   2018 Feb 21, 4:49pm  

The second amendment doesn't guarantee shit. We have a natural right to bear arms of our choosing. What the second amendment does in fact do is limit the government from creating laws about "we the people" bearing arms. It is language, written down, to expressly limit what the federal government could limit. Remember, the federal government is the Union of States, not it's own entity. Talk to a constitutional lawyer about what the meaning is if you want to be enlightened. Also, the "militia" for the security of a "free State", is not talking about our current standing army. You have to think about what perspective they were writing this thing under. It's about the Federal government not taking absolute power over the sovereigns, the people. A militia of the peoples people, not the "Governement's People," essentially anyone willing to take up arms to fight to defend the constitution. That should happen when there is government over-reach, when they take authority over something they have been expressly denied, or has been given to another person/entity.
158   Malcolm   2018 Feb 21, 4:53pm  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

The militia of the United States, as defined by the U.S. Congress, has changed over time, complicating its meaning.[1]

During colonial America, all able-bodied men of certain ages were eligible for the militia.[2] Individual towns formed local independent militias for their own defense.[3] The year before the US Constitution was ratified, The Federalist Papers detailed the founders' vision of the militia.[4][5] The new Constitution empowered Congress to regulate this national military force,[6] leaving significant control in the hands of each state government.[7][8]

Today, as defined by the Militia Act of 1903, the term "militia" is primarily used to describe two groups within the United States:

Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia.[9] (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)
Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia
159   Malcolm   2018 Feb 21, 4:54pm  

I'm 46, am I not allowed in?
160   cynn   2018 Feb 21, 4:54pm  

You must be exhausted.
161   ForcedTQ   2018 Feb 21, 5:13pm  

The constitutional amendment doesn't reference a definition of militia, nor does it direct the federal representatives to control who is "in" the militia. Ref: Madison in Federalist 46, the people have the authority to band together for purposes of repelling tyranny. That's what the "A well regulated militia" part is all about, not a force of individuals directed by a government body. It doesn't matter that the people that are completely clueless about the constitution and are acting on emotions and mis-placed ideologies keep ramming the Ban Guns drivvel down our throats, it still doesn't change the bill of rights (Or limitations on Government as it should be properly viewed.) Nor do "Court opinions" get to change the constitution, they only get to strike down laws that do not follow the very basic laws of our land.
162   Booger   2018 Feb 21, 6:02pm  

How do the gun stats look if you exclude crimes committed by non-legal gun owners?
164   MrMagic   2018 Feb 21, 7:56pm  

anon_8f378 says


I'm sorry--by what definition?


I don't believe that will be found on CNN. Try a different source.

anon_8f378 says
Trumps needs to enact common sense gun control.


We're still waiting for your list of new "common sense gun laws". When will we see that list?
165   MrMagic   2018 Feb 21, 7:57pm  

Malcolm says
I'm 46, am I not allowed in?


Get Obama to forge your birth certificate too, and you'll be good to go!
166   anonymous   2018 Feb 21, 7:57pm  

anon_8f378 says
anon_cf6c6 says
By definition, all American citizens, if not employed by the government, are part of the current militia.


I'm sorry--by what definition? What's the name of the militia? Who is in charge of it? When do they meet?


How's this?

Malcolm says
Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia


Did that help?
167   FortWayne   2018 Feb 21, 8:06pm  

Right to bear arms shall not be infringed!
168   anonymous   2018 Feb 21, 8:22pm  

NuttBoxer says

I like to go with the 10th amendment on that one.


That doesn't really apply here--the 10th Amendment doesn't help derive the intent of the Founding Fathers when writing the other Amendments


NuttBoxer says
Not everyone who fought in The Revolution was in a militia. See my reference to no standing army. And again, "Farmer Brown", had a rifle that rivaled, and more often surpassed, the ones used by the military of England. Compare that to what a citizen can own today.


Of course--we weren't even a nation yet and didn't have a Constitution. So, it's not really relevant to interpreting the 2nd Amendment.
169   anonymous   2018 Feb 21, 8:22pm  

ForcedTQ says
Talk to a constitutional lawyer about what the meaning is if you want to be enlightened.


I'd suggest you do the same. Few agree with you.

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