patrick.net

Sniper says

The chart in the OP says INCOME TAX, not medicare or S.S.

The chart says that. Goran explicitly uses the words "tax burden" which is wrong.

HappyGilmore says

Do you believe in the Constitution? The Founding Fathers answered that question quite conclusively.

They did! They did not specify who in each state had the right to vote. It ought to be quite clear that the horses (which enjoyed the same electoral college vote apportionment as slave head count) did not vote by themselves, but had votes cast by someone else on their behalves. How the electoral college votes was to be decided in each state was up to the state legislature.

People who were wards of other people obviously did not have the vote. That meant people under 21 didn't have the right to vote. Slaves who enjoyed free housing, free food, free education and free medicine, all decided by other people (slave owners) instead of themselves making choices (buying those goods and services with their own money) did not have the right of vote. Likewise, people on welfare (i.e. enjoying free housing, free food, free education and free medicine, as ward of the state) should not have the right to vote.

anotheraccount says

Sniper says

The chart in the OP says INCOME TAX, not medicare or S.S.

The chart says that. Goran explicitly uses the words "tax burden" which is wrong.

OK, we'll try this a different way.

What "tax burden" does a person making $250K pay for Medicare and S.S. and what "tax burden" does a person making $30K pay?

Please show the dollar amounts for each.

anotheraccount says

Tax burden does not include sales taxes that all poor people either.

OK, let's cover that too.

What approximate Sales "tax burden" does a person making $250K pay on their purchases and what Sales "tax burden" does a person making $30K pay?

Please show the dollar amounts for each.

HappyGilmore says

Actually it IS a zero sum game. Real growth in the US is measured by productivity growth. That is a couple percent a year. So, for all intents and purposes it is a zero sum game.

Income inequality is, by far, the biggest problem in the US economy right now.

It is not a zero-sum game. A couple percentage a year real growth should never be taken for granted. A couple percentage a year real growth is actually very good: doubling living standards every 36 years, or every generation! Setting aside the GDP nonsense that account for more and more government waste, the US only sustained 2+% annual real growth in the "Guilded Age" from roughly mid-19th century to early-20th century.

Living standards doubling every generation can only be sustained if the decisions regarding resource allocation are left to a relatively free market process so that those given power and resources by consumers as individual free agents get to decide. If left to a government monopolistic authority to allocate resources for the society, we'd end up with the situation in Venezuela, North Korea and the first year after Mayflower landed in Plymouth: more than half the people died in that first year due to starvation because they tried to farm all the land in common instead of private ownership. Between Mayflower and Venezuela, we have the entire 20th century of over 100+ million people dying in socialist/communist countries that tried allegedly better schemes than relatively free market allocation of resources.

The economic stagnation in the US in the past few decades is precisely the result of centralizing economic management.

Heraclitusstudent says

1- An increasing amount of money go to the rich vs poor (increasing inequalities)

In a real market economy, money going to a rich person would be the result of the rich person delivering something that is superior to all the alternatives that other people can buy. Not sure why that's even a bad thing.

2 - Rich people (Trump) have just cut taxes for themselves while increasing spending

Cutting taxes means giving people more choices where to spend money/resources, instead of letting a central authority making such decisions; that's a good thing. Increasing spending means letting a central authority make more decisions on how to spend more resources; a bad thing.

3 - the main bottleneck of the economy is poor end-demand (outside debt) due to poor people not having any money

No. That is never the real problem. If poor people have less money, the goods/services they buy would just come down in price. That is actually beneficial to the poor: they usually have less debt (as they don't qualify to borrow), so deflation doesn't hurt them. If the poor people get more money, they would bid up the prices of goods/services that they buy, resulting in inflation, which hurts the poor (usually having cash in hand instead of assets and loans) far more than the wealthy who usually have assets and loans associated with assets. The very idea of handing out money by the government hurt the poor and benefit the rich; that's precisely why the more government intervention in the market place, the greater polarization.

Goran_K says

The top 20% of income earners pay 95% of the tax burden in the United States

Funny, I thought sales taxes, property taxes, corporate taxes, FICA, taxes, excise taxes, etc., were also part of the tax burden in the United States. Despite that deceptive use of the word taxes in the name apparently in the world according to Goran they are not. You learn something new on patnet every day.

It would appear that some people believe that the no taxation without representation principal, which was the founding principal of the country, is some sort of a flexible sliding scale that can be used as a pick and choose exercise depending on what partizan political point they want to make.

But wait, there's more:
#1 Air Transportation Taxes (just look at how much you were charged the last time you flew)
#2 Biodiesel Fuel Taxes
#3 Building Permit Taxes
#4 Business Registration Fees
#5 Capital Gains Taxes
#6 Cigarette Taxes
#7 Court Fines (indirect taxes)
#8 Disposal Fees
#9 Dog License Taxes
#10 Drivers License Fees (another form of taxation)
#11 Employer Health Insurance Mandate Tax
#12 Employer Medicare Taxes
#13 Employer Social Security Taxes
#14 Environmental Fees
#15 Estate Taxes
#16 Excise Taxes On Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
#17 Federal Corporate Taxes
#18 Federal Income Taxes
#19 Federal Unemployment Taxes
#20 Fishing License Taxes
#21 Flush Taxes (yes, this actually exists in some areas)
#22 Food And Beverage License Fees
#23 Franchise Business Taxes
#24 Garbage Taxes
#25 Gasoline Taxes
#26 Gift Taxes
#27 Gun Ownership Permits
#28 Hazardous Material Disposal Fees
#29 Highway Access Fees
#30 Hotel Taxes (these are becoming quite large in some areas)
#31 Hunting License Taxes
#32 Import Taxes
#33 Individual Health Insurance Mandate Taxes
#34 Inheritance Taxes
#35 Insect Control Hazardous Materials Licenses
#36 Inspection Fees
#37 Insurance Premium Taxes
#38 Interstate User Diesel Fuel Taxes
#39 Inventory Taxes
#40 IRA Early Withdrawal Taxes
#41 IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
#42 IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
#43 Library Taxes
#44 License Plate Fees
#45 Liquor Taxes
#46 Local Corporate Taxes
#47 Local Income Taxes
#48 Local School Taxes
#49 Local Unemployment Taxes
#50 Luxury Taxes
#51 Marriage License Taxes
#52 Medicare Taxes
#53 Medicare Tax Surcharge On High Earning Americans Under Obamacare
#54 Obamacare Individual Mandate Excise Tax (if you don't buy "qualifying" health insurance under Obamacare you will have to pay an additional tax)
#55 Obamacare Surtax On Investment Income (a new 3.8% surtax on investment income)
#56 Parking Meters
#57 Passport Fees
#58 Professional Licenses And Fees (another form of taxation)
#59 Property Taxes
#60 Real Estate Taxes
#61 Recreational Vehicle Taxes
#62 Registration Fees For Ne Businesses
#63 Toll Booth Taxes
#64 Sales Taxes
#65 Self-Employment Taxes
#66 Sewer & Water Taxes
#67 School Taxes
#68 Septic Permit Taxes
#69 Service Charge Taxes
#70 Social Security Taxes
#71 Special Assessments For Road Repairs Or Construction
#72 Sports Stadium Taxes
#73 State Corporate Taxes
#74 State Income Taxes
#75 State Park Entrance Fees
#76 State Unemployment Taxes (SUTA)
#77 Tanning Taxes (a new Obamacare tax on tanning services)
#78 Telephone 911 Service Taxes
#79 Telephone Federal Excise Taxes
#80 Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Taxes
#81 Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Taxe
#82 Telephone State And Local Taxes
#83 Telephone Universal Access Taxes
#84 The Alternative Minimum Tax
#85 Tire Recycling Fees
#86 Tire Taxes
#87 Tolls (another form of taxation)
#88 Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
#89 Use Taxes (Out of state purchases, etc.)
#90 Utility Taxes
#91 Vehicle Registration Taxes
#92 Waste Management Taxes
#93 Water Rights Fees
#94 Watercraft Registration & Licensing Fees
#95 Well Permit Fees
#96 Workers Compensation Taxes
#97 Zoning Permit Fees

Heraclitusstudent says

Yep! we need to add several trillions of debts - every year - just to maintain the current "end demand". If we stopped adding debt, the end demand would collapse, like it did in 2008. The gov had to start compensating by adding huge amount to the national debts.
Why are we in this situation????
Because the poorest 70% have no fucking money to spend, and the richest don't NEED to spend. They don't know what to do with their money outside accumulating it.

This explanation makes no sense whatsoever. Does Bezos have $100 Billion dollars stacked up in his basement? Of course not. His wealth is in his ownership of Amazon, the stocks of which have been bid up on the marginal transactions, just like the 5% transactions of housing stock every year decides the price of the housing stock. The owners of stocks and houses (and almost all other productive capitals) are not at all piling money up in their homes equal to their asset value . . . in fact it's precisely the opposite: not enough money piling up as reserves is what causes financial collapse! The collapses are always the result of bubbles, during which people over-leveraged and over-invested based on too optimistic expectations. The problem is not the rich unwilling to spend, but they invest (which is no different from spending in economic statistics) too liberally!

Recession and depression almost always result from government monetary policies that induce widespread misallocaiton of resources: a wide cross section of investors having too optimistic expectations on the future returns of their investments, resulting in expectations not being met, therefore assets have to be repriced.

We did not need to add several trillions of debts. In fact, the additional debt taken on by the government only served to prevent the repricing to a level where other consumers can buy up assets cheap! For example, the money propped up real estate prices in NYC and SFBA prevented the real clearing of the market place and have kept many on the Patnet from buying their own homes! The bailouts are the problem, not the solution. Giving more money to people who are bad at running their finances would only exacerbate the problem.

Goran_K says

Should the poor be allowed to vote other people's money to themselves via the government?

This is why we have a constitution (or used to rather)

bob2356 says

Funny, I thought sales taxes, property taxes, corporate taxes, FICA, taxes, excise taxes, etc., were also part of the tax burden in the United States. Despite that deceptive use of the word taxes in the name apparently in the world according to Goran they are not. You learn something new on patnet every day.

But not all taxes are remotely equal in weight.



Hey, how much income tax and payroll tax do illegal day laborers pay from their off-the-books job?

If they don't pay anything, does that mean their Dreamer Kids don't get to go to school at $10k/year?

Neoliberals:

1. Companies don't pay enough Corporate Tax
Yet
2. We need to have Global Trade
But
3. Companies use Inversion thanks to complex Global Trade, to mislead where and how their profits were made
And so
4. We don't collect enough Corporate Tax
Yet
5. Let's bring in millions of unskilled immigrants, that'll help solve the revenue problem. Anybody opposed to this is a racist.
And
6. Leave Amazon alone, Trump, even though it's one of the worst Corporate Inversion abusers in the World! It's no problem Bezos owns the US Capital paper of record, either!

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Oh, NOW we actually like the Constitution...

Didn't seem to be the case in "repeal the 2A" thread.

The Founders set up a method for repealing Amendments--that is completely Constitutional.

Nothing hypocritical.

Reality says

Top tax bracket rate has little to do with actual amount of tax paid. Back when top tax rate was near 90%, as it is the case in some other countries now, the top executive jobs came with perks like free cars, free residence and free blowjobs from young pretty things on the payroll of the companies and the government agencies! The employers simply didn't pay that much cash out to the executives when 90% of the pay would be intercepted by a 3rd party.

I agree that there was non-cash benefits during those times, but I'm pretty sure that there is a decent correlation between top tax rate and actual amount of tax paid. But, it's interesting that inequality was much lower during times with high top tax rates. GDP growth was much stronger. Tax burden was spread out much more evenly. There was a much stronger middle class. Real wage growth was much stronger. Families could be comfortable on one income. None of those are coincidental.

Reality says

Also, if GDP growth is your primary goal, you ought to love the actual Nazi Party, which produced the highest GDP ever recorded in the modern world:

lol--so GDP growth is a bad thing now?

Reality says

A couple percentage a year real growth should never be taken for granted. A couple percentage a year real growth is actually very good: doubling living standards every 36 years, or every generation! Setting aside the GDP nonsense that account for more and more government waste, the US only sustained 2+% annual real growth in the "Guilded Age" from roughly mid-19th century to early-20th century.

The US averaged 2.8% productivity growth from 1948 - 1973. (In case you forgot--that was when we had high top tax rates.)

https://www.bls.gov/lpc/prodybar.htm

Reality says

The economic stagnation in the US in the past few decades is precisely the result of centralizing economic management.

The truth is exactly the opposite of the above statement.

Reality says

Slaves who enjoyed free housing, free food, free education and free medicine, all decided by other people (slave owners) instead of themselves making choices (buying those goods and services with their own money) did not have the right of vote. Likewise, people on welfare (i.e. enjoying free housing, free food, free education and free medicine, as ward of the state) should not have the right to vote.

Sorry--just want to make sure I understand this. You are equating someone who maybe lost their job and is having some tough times with a slave?

So, all men aren't created equal then?

Excluding googles 57 versions of sex is gender racism
HappyGilmore says

So, all men aren't created equal then?

HappyGilmore says

So, all men aren't created equal then?

Neither individuals nor groups are born with the same gifts. Inequality then begets more inequality. Its an enormous issue that no state or economic system has solved. The closest we get are within small, homogeneous societies. These small groups are effectively modernized tribes, with most people holding the same values and affinity for group loyalty.

(Now ask yourself if allowing in murderous migrants who refuse to assimilate helps of hurts these small modern tribe societies. Compare Sweden and Iceland for real world experiment.)

Limiting voting rights to those land owners who had skin in the game wasnt a terrible idea. Elitest as fuck, but it worked due to the shared value system amongst the landowners.

CBOEtrader says

Neither individuals nor groups are born with the same gifts

I don't think the Founders perceived the right to vote as a gift.

CBOEtrader says

Limiting voting rights to those land owners who had skin in the game wasnt a terrible idea.

Who doesn't have skin the game of life?

HappyGilmore says

I don't think the Founders perceived the right to vote as a gift.

Yes I am aware I took that in a different direction than you intended.

HappyGilmore says

Who doesn't have skin the game of life?

No one. Neither would land owners be the most applicable modern day interpretation of that concept. Goran is pondering if net worth is a better proxy for voting on tax issues only. If we had the constitution back protecting against income taxation, we wouldn't need to worry about this.

of course, there is a case to be made that the resulting unequal load balancing between states of our previous tariff based economy is why we had a civil war.

taxation is destruction one way or another. i dont pretend to have the answer

I have long believed that people paying too little in taxes cannot vote, period.

CBOEtrader says

of course, there is a case to be made that the resulting unequal load balancing between states of our previous tariff based economy is why we had a civil war.

A very poor case that is easily disproven.

CBOEtrader says

Goran is pondering if net worth is a better proxy for voting on tax issues only

Yep, and I'm just pointing out that his pondering seems to be against the very principles this country was founded upon.

HappyGilmore says

Yep, and I'm just pointing out that his pondering seems to be against the very principles this country was founded upon.

Like the 2nd amendment?

Sniper says

Like the 2nd amendment?

No, I'm fine with guaranteeing militias the right to bear arms.

HappyGilmore says

It would have nothing to do with competitiveness.

Why?

If the corporate tax rates in comparable markets are much lower, why would a company invest into the U.S?

HappyGilmore says

Here's a table with the best GDP growth years and their corresponding top tax rate. Sure seems like higher tax rates HELP growth.

Was it the high tax rate, or a globally interdependent competitive economy?

bob2356 says

Funny, I thought sales taxes, property taxes, corporate taxes, FICA, taxes, excise taxes, etc., were also part of the tax burden in the United States. Despite that deceptive use of the word taxes in the name apparently in the world according to Goran they are not. You learn something new on patnet every day.

It would appear that some people believe that the no taxation without representation principal, which was the founding principal of the country, is some sort of a flexible sliding scale that can be used as a pick and choose exercise depending on what partizan political point they want to make.

You're completely off base here.

I'm simply talking about the "fairness" of voting a higher percentage of taxes into your own pocket than you contribute via taking it from people who earn more, aka a Progressive taxation plan.

People keep bringing up the Constitution, but the Constitution was created way before there was a Federal income tax.

Now that one exists, I think it's a valid question.

Goran_K says

Why?

If the corporate tax rates in comparable markets are much lower, why would a company invest into the U.S?

I thought we were talking about individual tax rates. When did we switch to corporate rates?

But, high corporate rates have actually been shown to lead to more investment as investment is pre-tax. So, investing lowers taxes.

Goran_K says

Was it the high tax rate, or a globally interdependent competitive economy?

It's pretty interesting that the top 20 best GDPs all occur under high top tax rate environments. Pretty hard to argue that high top tax rates lower growth.

Goran_K says

People keep bringing up the Constitution, but the Constitution was created way before there was a Federal income tax.

But the Constitution very clearly states that everyone is created equal under the law. Rich people don't get extra votes due to their wealth.

To even consider something like the OP is disgusting, IMO. It would lead to a permanent aristocracy (I guess we're headed there already, but this would speed it up considerably) as rich folks don't want the lower classes to have opportunity to join them.

HappyGilmore says

But, high corporate rates have actually been shown to lead to more investment as investment is pre-tax. So, investing lowers taxes.

This is completely false.

High corporate tax rates universally suppress capital investment. This is why the EU flounders and why the Asian Tigers were able to build massive economies.

HappyGilmore says

It's pretty interesting that the top 20 best GDPs all occur under high top tax rate environments. Pretty hard to argue that high top tax rates lower growth.

None of them are 90%.

HappyGilmore says

But the Constitution very clearly states that everyone is created equal under the law. Rich people don't get extra votes due to their wealth.

Yes, equal.

Equal would be a flat tax.

Unequal would be a progressive tax scheme.

Goran_K says

his is completely false.

High corporate tax rates universally suppress capital investment. This is why the EU flounders and why the Asian Tigers were able to build massive economies.

No, it's true. Higher rates encourage capital investment to reduce tax burden.

Goran_K says

None of them are 90%.

lol--this is true.. One of the best years was 94%, and 4 of the best years was 91%. So 25% of the best GDP years occurred when the top tax rate was > 90%.

Goran_K says

Yes, equal.

Equal would be a flat tax.

Unequal would be a progressive tax scheme.

Nope. Equal is everyone's vote having the same weight in electing officials.

Reality says

His wealth is in his ownership of Amazon, the stocks of which have been bid up on the marginal transactions, just like the 5% transactions of housing stock every year decides the price of the housing stock. The owners of stocks and houses (and almost all other productive capitals) are not at all piling money up in their homes equal to their asset value . . .

That's exactly what I mean. The rich accumulate productive assets while the poor accumulate debts - or at least struggle from pay check to pay check.
Cash is chasing and inflating assets, not products.
Main street deflation is enabling wall street inflation.

This is why inequalities are rising. And it's just not true that the growth tide is raising all boats.

I repeat: the key bottleneck to higher growth is the ability of a large part of the population to spend more.
The industry could and would produce more, had people more money to spend.

HappyGilmore says

Nope. Equal is everyone's vote having the same weight in electing officials.

Uh no. The electoral college does not give 1 vote for 1 vote equivalency since California's votes do not give them proportional voting power to say Iowa. This is a built in mechanism to prevent centralized power.

Also the Constitution was not about "equality in votes" it was about protecting individual rights.

Being able to vote someone else's money into your pocket is not equality or individual rights. It's redistribution of someone's else's wealth.

Goran_K says

Uh no. The electoral college does not give 1 vote for 1 vote equivalency since California's votes do not give them proportional voting power to say Iowa. This is a built in mechanism to prevent centralized power.

lol--that's the technicality you want to base your argument on? There is exactly 1 election where that matters. But, theoretically, CA votes have the same proportional voting power as Iowa. That's why CA has many more electoral votes than Iowa.

Goran_K says

Also the Constitution was not about "equality in votes" it was about protecting individual rights.

Exactly--the right to elect ones representatives. That was pretty fundamental.

Goran_K says

Being able to vote someone else's money into your pocket is not equality or individual rights. It's redistribution of someone's else's wealth.

Luckily that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the right to vote for who would represent them.

There were several interesting surveys about millennials. A national Reason-Rupe survey found that 53% of Americans under 30 have a favorable view of socialism compared with less than a third of those over 30. Moreover, Gallup has found that an astounding 69% of millennials say they’d be willing to vote for a “socialist” candidate for president.

Yet millennials become averse to social welfare spending if they foot the bill. As they reach the threshold of earning $40,000 to $60,000 a year, the majority of millennials come to oppose income redistribution, including raising taxes to increase financial assistance to the poor.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-theory/wp/2016/03/24/millennials-like-socialism-until-they-get-jobs/

HappyGilmore says

There is exactly 1 election where that matters.

Only if you cant count... Or perhaps you think rhode islands senators receive the same number of votes as a california senator? LOL, liberals

1789: The Constitution grants the states the power to set voting requirements. Generally, states limited this right to property-owning or tax-paying white males (about 6% of the population).

If they'd bring this back sans the race and gender specifications I'd be supremely happy.

HappyGilmore says

I agree that there was non-cash benefits during those times, but I'm pretty sure that there is a decent correlation between top tax rate and actual amount of tax paid.

No, there isn't such a correlation. The overall federal tax collection as percentage of GDP has been staying at around 20-25% in the post-WWII era. Surprisingly (sarcasm on), employers and high-income (smart) people are not as stupid as the dumb people would like to project: just sitting there and taking higher tax rates on the chin instead of looking for legal ways to avoid paying higher taxes.

As GDP includes a higher and higher component of government spending (due to deficit spending), the overall tax collection as percentage of the real economy (nominal GDP minus government spending) has been increasing over the decades despite declining top marginal tax rate compared to the 50's and 60's. The next increase in tax collection (as percentage of the real economy, not GDP) is one of the reasons for our economic stagnation in recent decades.

But, it's interesting that inequality was much lower during times with high top tax rates. GDP growth was much stronger. Tax burden was spread out much more evenly. There was a much stronger middle class. Real wage growth was much stronger. Families could be comfortable on one income. None of those are coincidental.

Almost all of the positives you cited back then were due to the fact that most women were not in the work force! The so-called inequality in recent decades is largely due to the household falling apart due to divorce or not getting married, resulting in what had been the income of one family now being split into two families, therefore lower household income at the bottom end (now rapidly expanding to include the middle class). Why has that happened in recent decades? Because women have joined work force, and don't feel being stuck with men from whom they have taken jobs and bid wages down! Women initial 70-80% divorces, and low-income single-mothers are obviously responsible for getting pregnant and keeping babies despite their own inability to pay for the children themselves.

GDP growth higher in the 50's and 60's than usual peace time was due to out-sized government spending fighting the Cold War. That was not a good thing. That out-sized government spending eventually led to the run-away money-printing that forced the US government default on the Bretton Woods promise to the world economic system, and necessitated the Petro-Dollar System that eventually led to the Middleast set on fire as we know today.



HappyGilmore says

Also, if GDP growth is your primary goal, you ought to love the actual Nazi Party, which produced the highest GDP ever recorded in the modern world: 30% annual GDP growth in the first few years after Hitler and Nazi Party took power in Germay

lol--so GDP growth is a bad thing now?

GDP growth is a bad thing when it is due to government spending and central planning. It is quite unfortunate that you chopped out the detailed explanations in my previous post, not only using the Nazi example, but also the medical expense example under non-competitive market conditions. The inventor of the GDP/GNP concept made it quite clear that GDP/GNP is not an indicator of real economic size, but debt servicing capacity (when government prints money and spends it into the economy, it's essentially issuing chips that cancel previous debts, not necessarily generating any positive economic result). John Maynard Keynes borrowed the GDN/GNP concept in order to put together his fraudulent "macro-economics." Keynesian aggregates is about as silly as this: you and Jeff Bezos have an average net-worth of $50Billion, therefore if the government gives Bezos another $10B, you and him now average $55B, therefore you should feel better! It's a neat parlor trick to fool the bottom 90% in intelligence into advocating policies that are detrimental to themselves!



HappyGilmore says

The US averaged 2.8% productivity growth from 1948 - 1973. (In case you forgot--that was when we had high top tax rates.)

https://www.bls.gov/lpc/prodybar.htm

You are conflating GDP vs. real economy, which has to strip out all government spending. The most benign view of tax and government spending is that they are a form of societal insurance . . . All insurance expenses are usually cost items in a business' accounting and have to be subtracted before arriving at net profit. So a rough estimate of the size of real economy should be the nominal GDP - tax collected (insurance premium paid) - government deficit (the net loss run up by the government, as another player in the economy). In other words, GDP minus all government spending. All government spending is the cost of doing business (insurance cost) for all other businesses and individuals in the economy. The 1948-73 real economic growth was much less than the cited 2.8% when we subtract the rapidly expanding government spending. That's explains why the US government had to default on the "Gold Window" by 1973, despite the fraudulent GDP print that you cited.