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1
Ceffer
2018 Jul 20, 1:33pm
Ceffer
2018 Jul 20, 1:33pm
A faithful dog may be the last friend who will piss on you when you are on fire.
4
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 3:19pm
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 3:19pm
NuttBoxer says
Pit bulls are a product of eugenics, deliberately bred for agression in pit fighting. The more lethal pit bulls killed the less lethal ones. The more lethal ones were then bred to produce more lethal offspring.
In the OP report, all the dog did was bark outside a closed door. A miniature poodle can do that. The difference is a miniature poodle will not maul one of your children or neighbors to death.
The only BS is misusing this one example as if it proved what you want to believe, when in fact it does not change the larger pattern.
eugenics
Pit bulls are a product of eugenics, deliberately bred for agression in pit fighting. The more lethal pit bulls killed the less lethal ones. The more lethal ones were then bred to produce more lethal offspring.
In the OP report, all the dog did was bark outside a closed door. A miniature poodle can do that. The difference is a miniature poodle will not maul one of your children or neighbors to death.
The only BS is misusing this one example as if it proved what you want to believe, when in fact it does not change the larger pattern.
5
Ceffer
2018 Jul 20, 3:24pm
Ceffer
2018 Jul 20, 3:24pm
Actually, all kinds of dogs have been implicated in maulings and deaths, even Pomeranians. Dachshunds can be cross, aggressive biters. The goofy, friendly Labrador Retriever is a more frequent flier than might be expected.
6
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 6:47pm
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 6:47pm
"In the 6-year study published in the medical journal PEDIATRICS (Vol.97 No. 6, 891-5), Jeffrey J. Sacks, M.D. and associates reported the finding of 109 bite-related fatalities... The most commonly reported dog breeds involved were pit bulls (24 deaths), followed by rottweilers (16 deaths), and German shepherds (10 deaths)."
"A 2018 report issued by DogsBite.org shows that over 35 dog breeds contributed to 433 deaths in a 13-year period. Pit bulls contributed to 66% of these deaths, followed by rottweilers with 10%."
The same site reports pit bulls are ~6% of all dogs. That means pit bulls are >30x more likely to kill someone than other breeds are.
"A 2018 report issued by DogsBite.org shows that over 35 dog breeds contributed to 433 deaths in a 13-year period. Pit bulls contributed to 66% of these deaths, followed by rottweilers with 10%."
The same site reports pit bulls are ~6% of all dogs. That means pit bulls are >30x more likely to kill someone than other breeds are.
7
Ceffer
2018 Jul 20, 7:53pm
Ceffer
2018 Jul 20, 7:53pm
Malcolm Gladwell:
"Does the notion of a pit-bull menace rest on a stable or an unstable generalization? The best data we have on breed dangerousness are fatal dog bites, which serve as a useful indicator of just how much havoc certain kinds of dogs are causing. Between the late nineteen-seventies and the late nineteen-nineties, more than twenty-five breeds were involved in fatal attacks in the United States. Pit-bull breeds led the pack, but the variability from year to year is considerable. For instance, in the period from 1981 to 1982 fatalities were caused by five pit bulls, three mixed breeds, two St. Bernards, two German-shepherd mixes, a pure-bred German shepherd, a husky type, a Doberman, a Chow Chow, a Great Dane, a wolf-dog hybrid, a husky mix, and a pit-bull mix—but no Rottweilers. In 1995 and 1996, the list included ten Rottweilers, four pit bulls, two German shepherds, two huskies, two Chow Chows, two wolf-dog hybrids, two shepherd mixes, a Rottweiler mix, a mixed breed, a Chow Chow mix, and a Great Dane. The kinds of dogs that kill people change over time, because the popularity of certain breeds changes over time. The one thing that doesn’t change is the total number of the people killed by dogs. When we have more problems with pit bulls, it’s not necessarily a sign that pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs. It could just be a sign that pit bulls have become more numerous."
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/02/06/troublemakers-2
"Does the notion of a pit-bull menace rest on a stable or an unstable generalization? The best data we have on breed dangerousness are fatal dog bites, which serve as a useful indicator of just how much havoc certain kinds of dogs are causing. Between the late nineteen-seventies and the late nineteen-nineties, more than twenty-five breeds were involved in fatal attacks in the United States. Pit-bull breeds led the pack, but the variability from year to year is considerable. For instance, in the period from 1981 to 1982 fatalities were caused by five pit bulls, three mixed breeds, two St. Bernards, two German-shepherd mixes, a pure-bred German shepherd, a husky type, a Doberman, a Chow Chow, a Great Dane, a wolf-dog hybrid, a husky mix, and a pit-bull mix—but no Rottweilers. In 1995 and 1996, the list included ten Rottweilers, four pit bulls, two German shepherds, two huskies, two Chow Chows, two wolf-dog hybrids, two shepherd mixes, a Rottweiler mix, a mixed breed, a Chow Chow mix, and a Great Dane. The kinds of dogs that kill people change over time, because the popularity of certain breeds changes over time. The one thing that doesn’t change is the total number of the people killed by dogs. When we have more problems with pit bulls, it’s not necessarily a sign that pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs. It could just be a sign that pit bulls have become more numerous."
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/02/06/troublemakers-2
8
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 8:55pm
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 8:55pm
Ceffer says
I have met him and had already read that article. In the quotation you selected, he cherry-picked three years out of 20. Also, I made a point of addressing already the issue of breed popularity by including the population % in my calculation.
Gladwell misinfotains with a special flavor of truthiness that enables people to feel smart by agreeing with whatever argument he has been paid to promote. Did you know he was paid by both big tobacco and AHIP? When states were suing tobacco companies to recoup Medicaid costs, Big Tobacco used him to promote the argument that smokers don't cost the government money, because they don't draw as much pension and SS money. (The argument was misleading anyway, because smokers' per capita medical costs dwarf non-smokers' per capita pension and SS costs.) AHIP paid him to support Obamneycare, too. You can read further in the Shame Report. The Shame Project tracks journalists who are paid by the industries they write about. IDK who paid how much for his defense of pit bulls, but it's plainly manipulative when you compare it to objective statistical data such as I presented above.
He can doubtless point out examples of smokers who did not get cancer, and non-smokers who did. It doesn't change the data. Smoking kills people, and pit bulls are much more likely to kill people than other breeds are.
Malcolm Gladwell
I have met him and had already read that article. In the quotation you selected, he cherry-picked three years out of 20. Also, I made a point of addressing already the issue of breed popularity by including the population % in my calculation.
Gladwell misinfotains with a special flavor of truthiness that enables people to feel smart by agreeing with whatever argument he has been paid to promote. Did you know he was paid by both big tobacco and AHIP? When states were suing tobacco companies to recoup Medicaid costs, Big Tobacco used him to promote the argument that smokers don't cost the government money, because they don't draw as much pension and SS money. (The argument was misleading anyway, because smokers' per capita medical costs dwarf non-smokers' per capita pension and SS costs.) AHIP paid him to support Obamneycare, too. You can read further in the Shame Report. The Shame Project tracks journalists who are paid by the industries they write about. IDK who paid how much for his defense of pit bulls, but it's plainly manipulative when you compare it to objective statistical data such as I presented above.
He can doubtless point out examples of smokers who did not get cancer, and non-smokers who did. It doesn't change the data. Smoking kills people, and pit bulls are much more likely to kill people than other breeds are.
9
Ceffer
2018 Jul 20, 9:15pm
Ceffer
2018 Jul 20, 9:15pm
Yup, you're right. The Malcolm is a clever inductive propagandist, working backwards from spot information and results to 'prove' various broad theses i.e. somebody was 'successful' for X Y an Z coincidental reasons, rather than perhaps X Y and Z are irrelevant, and the 'successful' person was just successful from sheer luck or probability out of a large field of strivers . His dog article was interesting, though.
10
steverbeaver
2018 Jul 20, 9:29pm
steverbeaver
2018 Jul 20, 9:29pm
He probably thought there was a baby outside that he could eat. On a serious note, pitbulls are very loyal when they are disciplined and cared for (particularly the females), not so much with strangers or potential threats.
11
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 20, 9:41pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 20, 9:41pm
curious2 says
What is probably not included in the study, and I think is far more important, is the conditions the biting dogs where kept in, especially the living conditions of their owners. If pit bulls have a reputation as fighters, what kinds of people are likely to own them? Families who walk them, given them proper yard space, and proper training? Or ghetto fabulous hood rats who keep them in confined spaces, and only remember to feed them so they'll keep up energy to kill anyone who gets on their property?
The same site reports pit bulls are ~6% of all dogs. That means pit bulls are >30x more likely to kill someone than other breeds are.
What is probably not included in the study, and I think is far more important, is the conditions the biting dogs where kept in, especially the living conditions of their owners. If pit bulls have a reputation as fighters, what kinds of people are likely to own them? Families who walk them, given them proper yard space, and proper training? Or ghetto fabulous hood rats who keep them in confined spaces, and only remember to feed them so they'll keep up energy to kill anyone who gets on their property?
12
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 10:29pm
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 10:29pm
NuttBoxer says
That is a good point, and it underscores the need for licensing in densely populated areas. There isn't a 2nd amendment right for dangerous people to bring dangerous animals into a residential neighborhood.
It doesn't change the fact that dogs are basically a GMO bred over centuries to develop specific instincts and abilities. If you need to herd sheep, then a border collie will be a much better choice than a pit bull. If you need to kill or intimidate rival gang members, a pit bull will be more effective specifically because of the instinctive aggression and fighting ability. You can try to train a wolf or a pit bull to behave like a border collie, but the instinct can always surface, especially in a male when a nearby female is in heat. Every time a child is mauled to death by the family pit bull, the parents always say they never saw it coming.
what kinds of people are likely to own them?
That is a good point, and it underscores the need for licensing in densely populated areas. There isn't a 2nd amendment right for dangerous people to bring dangerous animals into a residential neighborhood.
It doesn't change the fact that dogs are basically a GMO bred over centuries to develop specific instincts and abilities. If you need to herd sheep, then a border collie will be a much better choice than a pit bull. If you need to kill or intimidate rival gang members, a pit bull will be more effective specifically because of the instinctive aggression and fighting ability. You can try to train a wolf or a pit bull to behave like a border collie, but the instinct can always surface, especially in a male when a nearby female is in heat. Every time a child is mauled to death by the family pit bull, the parents always say they never saw it coming.
13
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 11:29pm
curious2
2018 Jul 20, 11:29pm
Aphroman says
IDK what "frequently" would mean in this context, but when it happens, it is disproportionately pit bulls. Here are a few local examples:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/calls-for-crackdown-on-pit-bulls/
http://www.sfexaminer.com/da-says-no-second-trial-for-mother-in-mauling-death/
A pregnant Pacifica, Calif. woman was mauled and killed by a family pit bull Thursday inside her home and discovered by her husband when he returned from work.
Is the family dog killed my kids out of nowhere the case frequently?
IDK what "frequently" would mean in this context, but when it happens, it is disproportionately pit bulls. Here are a few local examples:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/calls-for-crackdown-on-pit-bulls/
http://www.sfexaminer.com/da-says-no-second-trial-for-mother-in-mauling-death/
A pregnant Pacifica, Calif. woman was mauled and killed by a family pit bull Thursday inside her home and discovered by her husband when he returned from work.
15
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 21, 8:27am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 21, 8:27am
curious2 says
Then isn't the only example, just the only one you've read. For starters look at my other posts and comments on this subject.
curious2 says
I think this is a very new belief, and if there was any breeding done in an attempt to breed better fighters it was during our lifetime. Arrogance tends to make us think that new ideas have always been just because they're commonly held in our generation.
BTW, eugenics hasn't been popular since Hitler, even Planned Parenthood steered clear of it after WWII, you're in prestigious company...
The only BS is misusing this one example as if it proved what you want to believe, when in fact it does not change the larger pattern.
Then isn't the only example, just the only one you've read. For starters look at my other posts and comments on this subject.
curious2 says
Pit bulls are a product of eugenics, deliberately bred for agression in pit fighting. The more lethal pit bulls killed the less lethal ones. The more lethal ones were then bred to produce more lethal offspring.
I think this is a very new belief, and if there was any breeding done in an attempt to breed better fighters it was during our lifetime. Arrogance tends to make us think that new ideas have always been just because they're commonly held in our generation.
BTW, eugenics hasn't been popular since Hitler, even Planned Parenthood steered clear of it after WWII, you're in prestigious company...
16
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 21, 8:38am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 21, 8:38am
curious2 says
The level of dog domestication we have today is unprecedented in history. I think there are a few breeds that were domesticated as far back as Egypt, but not even sure those breeds remained continuously domesticated.
And distemperment isn't just developed once a rescue is placed with a nice loving family. The entire life experience of the dog plays into their behavior. What was the history of the dogs in the examples you listed?
It doesn't change the fact that dogs are basically a GMO bred over centuries to develop specific instincts and abilities.
The level of dog domestication we have today is unprecedented in history. I think there are a few breeds that were domesticated as far back as Egypt, but not even sure those breeds remained continuously domesticated.
And distemperment isn't just developed once a rescue is placed with a nice loving family. The entire life experience of the dog plays into their behavior. What was the history of the dogs in the examples you listed?
18
curious2
2018 Jul 21, 12:17pm
curious2
2018 Jul 21, 12:17pm
NuttBoxer says
You are the one advocating a product of eugenics, i.e. pit bulls, a type of breed that goes back centuries to when dog fights were legal.
And, to be in prestigious company, one would need to leave PatNet. Everyone knows this place is for the motley survivors of cannibal anarchy and the zombie apocalypse, filtered only by a healthy mistrust of Realtors(TM).
NuttBoxer says
They are cherry picked like a tobacco company showing smokers who don't (yet) have cancer. Cherry picking anecdotes does not change the pattern. It shows only either a failure to reason or an attempt to mislead.
NuttBoxer says
Good question, why don't you spend a year "in prestigious company" researching that, interviewing pit bulls and asking them about their backgrounds? If they seem reticent, offer them a child or pregnant lady to maul. Then, blame it on society, or their puppyhood, or violent video games, anything other than the fact that pit bulls were deliberately bred over centuries to develop specific traits, just as border collies were bred to herd sheep.
you're in prestigious company...
You are the one advocating a product of eugenics, i.e. pit bulls, a type of breed that goes back centuries to when dog fights were legal.
And, to be in prestigious company, one would need to leave PatNet. Everyone knows this place is for the motley survivors of cannibal anarchy and the zombie apocalypse, filtered only by a healthy mistrust of Realtors(TM).
NuttBoxer says
look at my other posts and comments on this subject.
They are cherry picked like a tobacco company showing smokers who don't (yet) have cancer. Cherry picking anecdotes does not change the pattern. It shows only either a failure to reason or an attempt to mislead.
NuttBoxer says
What was the history of the dogs in the examples you listed?
Good question, why don't you spend a year "in prestigious company" researching that, interviewing pit bulls and asking them about their backgrounds? If they seem reticent, offer them a child or pregnant lady to maul. Then, blame it on society, or their puppyhood, or violent video games, anything other than the fact that pit bulls were deliberately bred over centuries to develop specific traits, just as border collies were bred to herd sheep.
20
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 23, 9:53am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 23, 9:53am
@curious2 I see you've tired of providing evidence and valid talking points. I hope you'll consider some of the points I made, and be a little less Hitler-esque in your view of our canine friends in the future. I'll continue to post these articles as they continue to pop-up as a reminder to the bigots out there it takes more than belief to make something reality.
FYI, my brother-in-law lives in Tijuana, and is part of a Pit Bull club. They train their dogs for shows, he has a few awards for one of the fattest, sweetest dogs you will ever meet.
Wait... Pit Bulls raised in TIJUANA that aren't vicious, and aren't trained for dog fights!?!?
FYI, my brother-in-law lives in Tijuana, and is part of a Pit Bull club. They train their dogs for shows, he has a few awards for one of the fattest, sweetest dogs you will ever meet.
Wait... Pit Bulls raised in TIJUANA that aren't vicious, and aren't trained for dog fights!?!?
21
Ceffer
2018 Jul 23, 11:20am
Ceffer
2018 Jul 23, 11:20am
I know pit bulls that have been trained to skillfully ink gang tattoos. They are sweet and lick off the extra ink.
22
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 23, 12:48pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 23, 12:48pm
My brother-in-law's dog, sounds like a fucking pig when he gets excited:
23
MrMagic
2018 Jul 23, 12:58pm
MrMagic
2018 Jul 23, 12:58pm
NuttBoxer says
Well, that settles it.
Pit Bulls are the most friendly and best dogs to have around your kids and family, hands down!
The best family pets on earth! What could possibly go wrong?
FYI, my brother-in-law lives in Tijuana, and is part of a Pit Bull club. They train their dogs for shows, he has a few awards for one of the fattest, sweetest dogs you will ever meet.
Well, that settles it.
Pit Bulls are the most friendly and best dogs to have around your kids and family, hands down!
The best family pets on earth! What could possibly go wrong?
24
MrMagic
2018 Jul 23, 12:59pm
MrMagic
2018 Jul 23, 12:59pm
NuttBoxer says
What does he sound like when he eats a small child?
sounds like a fucking pig when he gets excited:
What does he sound like when he eats a small child?
25
curious2
2018 Jul 23, 4:16pm
curious2
2018 Jul 23, 4:16pm
NuttBoxer says
Godwin's law. You've been proven wrong and it hurts you so much that you're wailing and flailing. Empirical evidence proves that by choosing a pit bull you have chosen to endanger your children and neighbors. Instead of accepting blame for your actions, you present irrelevant anecdotes. A dog barked outside a door. BFD. It was a pitbull. You grab the anecdote as if it would protect you, but it won't. Facts are stubborn things, and you and yours will live with your choices.
be a little less Hitler-esque
Godwin's law. You've been proven wrong and it hurts you so much that you're wailing and flailing. Empirical evidence proves that by choosing a pit bull you have chosen to endanger your children and neighbors. Instead of accepting blame for your actions, you present irrelevant anecdotes. A dog barked outside a door. BFD. It was a pitbull. You grab the anecdote as if it would protect you, but it won't. Facts are stubborn things, and you and yours will live with your choices.
26
MrBark
2018 Jul 23, 4:38pm
Pit Bulls dindu nuffin. The real enemy of people are those pesky Golden Retrievers, vicious bunch that breed.
28
steverbeaver
2018 Jul 23, 11:41pm
Obligatory. For some reason I laughed for about 10 minutes when I saw this one.
steverbeaver
2018 Jul 23, 11:41pm
Obligatory. For some reason I laughed for about 10 minutes when I saw this one.
29
Ceffer
2018 Jul 24, 9:45am
Ceffer
2018 Jul 24, 9:45am
MrBark says
Yes, we are all tired of 'Golden Retriever' privilege.
Pit Bulls dindu nuffin. The real enemy of people are those pesky Golden Retrievers, vicious bunch that breed.
Yes, we are all tired of 'Golden Retriever' privilege.
30
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 24, 11:03am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2018 Jul 24, 11:03am
curious2 says
I did consider this, but Hitler really is the poster-child for the eugenics movement. And you did say...
curious2 says
You provided some good data to back up your assertion, but when I probed deeper with questions that the studies may have overlooked, you quickly showed that you have nothing else. Causation is often more complex than we think, especially when we understand very little of the subject we're talking about, other than hearsay, and possibly inconclusive studies.
But when you espouse eugenics, I guess you only need arguments that are skin deep.
be a little less Hitler-esque
Godwin's law.
I did consider this, but Hitler really is the poster-child for the eugenics movement. And you did say...
curious2 says
Pit bulls are a product of eugenics
You provided some good data to back up your assertion, but when I probed deeper with questions that the studies may have overlooked, you quickly showed that you have nothing else. Causation is often more complex than we think, especially when we understand very little of the subject we're talking about, other than hearsay, and possibly inconclusive studies.
But when you espouse eugenics, I guess you only need arguments that are skin deep.
31
curious2
2018 Jul 30, 2:31am
curious2
2018 Jul 30, 2:31am
NuttBoxer says
Your bizarre exercise in projection, including invoking Hitler three times in one thread, shows cognitive dissonance on your part. You are the only one who defends a product of eugenics in this thread. You are the only one who invokes Hitler in this thread. You call yourself a "nuttboxer", but it is your own progeny who are endangered by your embrace of eugenics, and your efforts at trolling with your Hitler comments (three so far) only make you look worse. Your feeble attempt to point your eugenicist's finger at me shows only poor reasoning skills on your part, when the evidence is clear: you are the only one practicing eugenics, which you have literally bought and brought into your home.
NuttBoxer says
The wounds on the hundreds of people mauled to death by pit bulls were much deeper than the skin. You espouse a product of eugenics that kills children and adults. The blood is on your hands, not mine. Your "arguments" are merely trolling, crying "Hitler" over and over again, and appealing to anecdotes and conjecture as if they could refute peer reviewed empirical data.
Hitler.... you espouse eugenics....
Your bizarre exercise in projection, including invoking Hitler three times in one thread, shows cognitive dissonance on your part. You are the only one who defends a product of eugenics in this thread. You are the only one who invokes Hitler in this thread. You call yourself a "nuttboxer", but it is your own progeny who are endangered by your embrace of eugenics, and your efforts at trolling with your Hitler comments (three so far) only make you look worse. Your feeble attempt to point your eugenicist's finger at me shows only poor reasoning skills on your part, when the evidence is clear: you are the only one practicing eugenics, which you have literally bought and brought into your home.
NuttBoxer says
I guess you only need arguments that are skin deep.
The wounds on the hundreds of people mauled to death by pit bulls were much deeper than the skin. You espouse a product of eugenics that kills children and adults. The blood is on your hands, not mine. Your "arguments" are merely trolling, crying "Hitler" over and over again, and appealing to anecdotes and conjecture as if they could refute peer reviewed empirical data.
32
MrMagic
2018 Aug 11, 9:57am
MrMagic
2018 Aug 11, 9:57am
Just another friendly, family loving, Pit Bull:
Woman killed by neighborhood Pit Bulls
On Thursday, August 9, 2018, a resident of a Lake Tillery development on the western side of Montgomery County went missing while taking her daily walk. After several hours the 66 year old female did not return home. Her husband called neighbors and friends who searched the area.
Within hours she was discovered deceased on the side of an unused road within the development. An investigation was conducted with the assistance of the Medical Examiner’s Office, NC Wildlife Resources Commission and Animal Control.
The investigation revealed she had been attacked by dogs. Law enforcement searched the neighborhood and located two pit bull dogs with physical evidence reflecting the dog’s involvement.
http://www.montgomeryherald.com/news/article_a7fc2186-9cb4-11e8-8110-735d9be7ce56.html
Woman killed by neighborhood Pit Bulls
On Thursday, August 9, 2018, a resident of a Lake Tillery development on the western side of Montgomery County went missing while taking her daily walk. After several hours the 66 year old female did not return home. Her husband called neighbors and friends who searched the area.
Within hours she was discovered deceased on the side of an unused road within the development. An investigation was conducted with the assistance of the Medical Examiner’s Office, NC Wildlife Resources Commission and Animal Control.
The investigation revealed she had been attacked by dogs. Law enforcement searched the neighborhood and located two pit bull dogs with physical evidence reflecting the dog’s involvement.
http://www.montgomeryherald.com/news/article_a7fc2186-9cb4-11e8-8110-735d9be7ce56.html
https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2018/07/20/pit-bull-saves-ocean-county-family-from-house-fire/