patrick.net

bob2356 says

Wow, you mean all those old people from the rust belt don't want to do upstate winters any more. Shocking I tell you, simply shocking.

Minnesota and Wisconsin populations are growing and climate is just as miserable if not more miserable.

dr6B says

Minnesota and Wisconsin populations are growing and climate is just as miserable if not more miserable.

and who is doing the growing? Old people? How much major industry was in MN and WI that died?

bob2356 says

and who is doing the growing? Old people? How much major industry was in MN and WI that died?

No idea, but the graph on google search shows they do not lose population. Industries dying may be related to taxes BTW, and it is not necessarily D vs R issue (MN is D, WI is R unless I am missing something).

https://www.google.com/search?q=wisconsin+population&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

dr6B says

No idea, but the graph on google search shows they do not lose population. Industries dying may be related to taxes BTW, and it is not necessarily D vs R issue (MN is D, WI is R unless I am missing something).

WI and MN were never industrial centers. Unless you count cheese and beer. Which was my point. There isn't a large pool of former manufacturing workers to move out. There is no equivalent to buffalo, rochester, syracuse, troy, etc..

Industry dying relates to labor cost. That's why industry moved out of the rust belt to the south when building the interstates made transportation to the major population centers cheap and easy then overseas when ocean shipping became cheap.

bob2356 says

Industry dying relates to labor cost.

Taxes have no effect on labor costs?

bob2356 says

WI and MN were never industrial centers. Unless you count cheese and beer. Which was my point.

How about Illinois Bob?

I believe Illinois is losing more people than any other and many of them are moving to Wisconsin and Indiana to escape getting raped by high property taxes to prop up corrupt municipal pensions and all the crime.

"Illinois loses more residents in 2016 than any other state"
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-illinois-population-decline-met-20161220-story.html

bob2356 says

Wow, you mean all those old people from the rust belt don't want to do upstate winters any more. Shocking I tell you, simply shocking.

lol wait I though it's getting hotter everywhere, climate chaaaaange, al gorez and the oceans! NY should be great for all those old people if it's getting warmer everywhere.

Goran_K says

bob2356 says

Industry dying relates to labor cost.

Taxes have no effect on labor costs?

Minor, unions (rust belt) and demand (bay area) are a lot lot bigger factor.

socal2 says

How about Illinois Bob?

How about Illinois? The post is about upstate NY losing population. Not very many like 60,000 out of 6 million in the last 6 years or 0.1% a year, but enough for the fake outrage de jour. They are FLEEING. No mention of downstate NY where taxes are much higher gaining population. Any reason that part was skipped?

mell says

lol wait I though it's getting hotter everywhere, climate chaaaaange, al gorez and the oceans! NY should be great for all those old people if it's getting warmer everywhere.

Yea, it only gets to -5 instead of -25 upstate these days. Pretty soon people will be able to take tropical vacations in Rochester in February. ROFLOL.

bob2356 says

How about Illinois? The post is about upstate NY losing population.

Just trying to see if you even agree with the premise that some people move away when the government gets too expensive and dysfunctional.

You seem to be arguing that high taxes and dysfunctional government has no impact on migration and it is all weather and industry. As if industry is not impacted by expensive and dysfunctional Democrat controlled government.

socal2 says

Just trying to see if you even agree with the premise that some people move away when the government gets too expensive and dysfunctional.

You seem to be arguing that high taxes and dysfunctional government has no impact on migration and it is all weather and industry. As if industry is not impacted by expensive and dysfunctional Democrat controlled government.

I love the right wingnut all or nothing when did you stop beating your wife logic. Of course SOME people move because of high taxes and dysfunctional government. DUH. The question on the table is if it's driving the movement in NY. Why does the same high taxes and dysfunctional government in NY have population losses in 75% of the state and population gains in 25% (the much higher taxes 25%)? I notice you dodged this.

Where did I mention population loss in any state other than NY? I lived upstate for 5 years and know damn well why people are moving out. They are retired and sick of the weather and yes some TAXES. But taxes upstate aren't all that high. Lower than some of the sun belt states. I paid less in property taxes in Albany than in south Texas. There is no one coming in because industry left searching for cheaper non union labor AND lower taxes. But labor is a huge part of costs in manufacturing, many times more important than taxes. Project much?

Quick quiz why did the rust belt flourish in the first place?

I'm from NY (Nassau county), and was just there last weekend. Everyone at the function that I attended was born in NY, and the only ones still living there are really old (as in too old to move), and one guy who is 48 and still living in his parents basement (who will inherit a house that he could never afford to buy, but be paying $11000/yr property tax on).

Nobody mentioned the weather in NY, only the outrageously high taxes.

Booger says

I'm from NY (Nassau county), and was just there last weekend. Everyone at the function that I attended was born in NY, and the only ones still living there are really old (as in too old to move), and one guy who is 48 and still living in his parents basement (who will inherit a house that he could never afford to buy, but be paying $11000/yr property tax on).

Nobody mentioned the weather in NY, only the outrageously high taxes.

Sorry you didn't realize Nassau county wasn't upstate NY (hint it's on Long Island which has a very moderate climate, I guess you weren't really good with geography) or is the part of NY that us gaining population.

My point was that no matter where you live in NY, the high taxes are driving you away.

People compained about traffic too. The Verrizanno bridge toll all by itself is a huge deterrent to Long Island tourism.

bob2356 says

Sorry you didn't realize Nassau county wasn't upstate NY (hint it's on Long Island which has a very moderate climate, I guess you weren't really good with geography) or is the part of NY that us gaining population.

The people moving to the NYC areas are from shithole countries, and probably don't pay much in income taxes, or haven't figured out that there are better places to live yet.

Anyone else here from NY?

Booger says

The people moving to the NYC areas are from shithole countries, and probably don't pay much in income taxes, or haven't figured out that there are better places to live yet.

Yep, shithole countries like Florida. https://www.metro.us/news/local-news/new-york/who-is-moving-to-new-york-city-report

You post a link that only has inward migration not net. If 5 people move from FL to NY and 10 people move to FL from NY-NY has not gained 5 people-it lost 5 people.
https://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/coming-or-going-nyc-migration-ins-and-outs-0

https://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/coming-or-going-nyc-migration-ins-and-outs-0

bob2356 says

Booger says

The people moving to the NYC areas are from shithole countries, and probably don't pay much in income taxes, or haven't figured out that there are better places to live yet.

Yep, shithole countries like Florida. https://www.metro.us/news/local-news/new-york/who-is-moving-to-new-york-city-report

New York state has 1. lousy weather 2. high taxes

If you are rich or work in the financial industry in NYC you may enjoy New York. Eventually you will leave however to avoid taxes.

People are fleeing New York for Florida in droves. It's almost surreal to see them and hear the accents like Tony Danza or Kyle's mother Sheila on South Park. At my gym I see old dudes with gold chains and NY Giants or NY Yankees apparel. "Gimme a fuckin break!"

My father didn't want to come to Florida but others insisted he make the move. He asked me at 93 to look at his financial things because he was bored by the subject but also didn't know whom to actually trust to explain things to him.

I noticed he was saving about $1500 in NY taxes per month by changing his residence to Florida. He was not a big money guy compared to the gazillionaires fleeing the north.

This has created an interesting social ecosystem of a kind; the local females in the service economy had little money and they are out seeking "sugar daddy" types who abound, they are generally bringing their wealth down from the North.

Completely off the subject of that idiot Cuomo, if readers win lotto they should explore Florida for tax reasons and for lots of dating opportunities. Colombians, Cubans, locals are all going to roll out the red carpet for the man of means.

bob2356 says

How about Illinois? The post is about upstate NY losing population. Not very many like 60,000 out of 6 million in the last 6 years or 0.1% a year, but enough for the fake outrage de jour.

Considering the USA is gaining about 1% population increase every year, a fall by 0.1% in a major state like NY can be considered substantial. They are steadily losing the population market share.
When you add a rotten climate to high prices and ridiculous taxes, you have a straw that breaks the camels back.

Strategist says

When you add a rotten climate to high prices and ridiculous taxes, you have a straw that breaks the camels back.

and the higher tax part of the state is gaining population how? They don't care about high prices and ridiculous taxes because the weather is so great in places like westchester and rockland counties? ROFLOL.

clambo says

People are fleeing New York for Florida in droves.

and yet downstate gains population.

E pur si muove Galileo.

bob2356 says

Strategist says

When you add a rotten climate to high prices and ridiculous taxes, you have a straw that breaks the camels back.

and the higher tax part of the state is gaining population how? They don't care about high prices and ridiculous taxes because the weather is so great in places like westchester and rockland counties? ROFLOL.

Cost of housing is lower in those areas?

This is one of many reasons the left advocates globalism. They don't want you to be able to escape their insanity. They HATE competing models of governance aka conservatism/nationalism/sovereignty/independence because it allows freedom of movement away from them.

Yah when you raise taxes and revenues drop, the people with money have had enough.

Bob, you do realize that enforcement of tax codes is NEVER going to be enough to encourage people to pay their taxes if they truly decide in large numbers to skip or cheat on them? If even an eighth of taxpayers decide to just not, the IRS would have to spend ten years of audits just to keep up with one of the years lost. They’d fall so far behind that everyone would see and stop paying taxes.

Taxes are largely voluntary contributions. Sure, enforcement works if only a tiny percentage of people cheat or skip, but when those numbers get large, the government loses.

And unfair tax burdens cause more people to decide to not pay the tax.

Net York has a very high “sin tax” on cigarettes and 1/2 of all cigarettes smoked in NY are smuggled in from neighboring states.