patrick.net

tatupu70 says

lol-- let's be clear here. The leader of Saudi Arabia tortured and murdered a journalist that was spreading the truth about his regime.

That's what happened. MBS didn't like someone piercing the narrative of "reform" in Saudi Arabia so he had him executed. period.

That is normal in Saudi and other Islamic countries. No freedom of speech. Lots of innocent people have had their heads chopped off for daring to exercise freedom of speech. Why all the fuss, now?

Strategist says

Why all the fuss, now?

There should always be fuss if a supposed ally murders a journalist.

tatupu70 says

lol-- let's be clear here. The leader of Saudi Arabia tortured and murdered a journalist that was spreading the truth about his regime.

Khashoggi was a propagandist who worked for the Middle East Monitor, a Muslim Brotherhood affiliated publication. He was belatedly given a job at the WaPo last year, probably on the world of Muslim-Brotherhood=democracy types in the "Intel Community".

Do you deny Khashoggi's connections to the Muslim Brotherhood and OBL?

tatupu70 says

There should always be fuss if a supposed ally murders a journalist.

Did Turkey get suspended from NATO when Erdogan imprisoned scores of journalists and shut down dozens of media outlets? 6 of them got life in prison, by the way, just a few months ago.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/world/europe/turkey-journalists-prison-terrorism.html

What punishment do you think Erdogan deserves for his war on the Free Press in Turkey?

No country on Earth jails more journalists than Turkey.
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-06-28/turkey-jails-more-journalists-any-other-nation-those-detention-are-all-terrorists
https://cpj.org/reports/2017/12/journalists-prison-jail-record-number-turkey-china-egypt.php

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

Why all the fuss, now?

There should always be fuss if a supposed ally murders a journalist.

No fuss if a 16 year old girl elopes and gets stoned to death? Is a journalist a superior human being?

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

If Trump had his way, he'd have the KSA royal guard and the Secret Service take out the entire staff of the Washington Post and sell video tapes of the event.

If I was Trump, I would order the Saudis to attack Iran now. We need some excitement and entertainment.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-16/pat-buchanan-asks-should-us-saudi-alliance-be-saved

Trump said he was “immediately” sending Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to Riyadh to meet with the king on the crisis. The confrontation is escalating. Crown Prince Mohammed and King Salman have both now put their nation’s honor and credibility on the line.

Both are saying that what the Turks claim they can prove — Khashoggi was tortured and murdered in the consulate, cut up, and his body parts flown to Saudi Arabia — is a lie.

For Trump and the U.S., this appears a classic case of the claims of international morality clashing with the claims of national interest.

The archetype occurred in the mid-1870s when Ottoman Turks perpetrated a slaughter of Bulgarian Christians under their rule.

Former Prime Minister William Gladstone set Britain ablaze with a pamphlet titled, “The Bulgarian Horrors and the Question of the East,” calling for the expulsion of the Turks from Europe.

Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli and Queen Victoria were apoplectic. For they were relying on the Turks to block the encroachment of Czarist Russia into the Eastern Balkans and down to the Turkish Straits.

Disraeli prevailed. The Brits put morality on the shelf.

For the U.S., morality and interests collided when FDR recognized the Bolshevik regime of Joseph Stalin in 1933, even as Stalin’s agents were starving to death millions of Ukrainian peasants and landowners. ...

During World War II, when the Germans uncovered in the Katyn Forest a vast gravesite containing the remains of thousands from Poland’s officer corps, dating to Stalin’s occupation, Poles in Britain came to Prime Minister Churchill to ask for an investigation.

Churchill, for whom Stalin was by now an indispensable ally, replied dismissively: “There is no use prowling round the three-year-old graves of Smolensk.”

My prediction: absolutely nothing will happen. The Saudis can murder whomever they like, including thousands of Americans on 9/11, because our government has no integrity when it comes to that much money.

Patrick says

My prediction: absolutely nothing will happen. The Saudis can murder whomever they like, including thousands of Americans on 9/11, because our government has no integrity when it comes to that much money.

That was Khashoggi's wing of Saudi Arabia, not the MbS wing that is taking over.

In fairness, as a 0.1%er of Saudi Arabia, Khashoggi knew too much. I'm sure part of this is MbS wanting to keep the deeds of certain people secret - not necessarily his allies - for the security of the Kingdom. There's a theory that Osama wanted to frame Saudi Arabia hoping the US would invade, and then the "Muslim Brotherhood Democracy Reformers" - Morsi types - would be appointed as replacements.

A major target of Jihadis/MB is the Monarchy of Saudi Arabia, to replace it with an Iranian Style Shari'a "Democracy" of Clerics.

I think MbS has seen the blowback from their old policy of "Export the Wahabis as a safety valve, have them attack elsewhere" and has decided to go after the disease and not treat the symptoms.

Aphroman says

Yup Trump is indistinguishable from President Bush, again

When Saudi Arabia killed those gays and witches a few years ago, what kind of sanctions did Obama impose?

Islam, Saudi Arabia, Mid East, is getting too confusing. I'm sticking with my proposal. Just control these fucking barbarians until they get civilized.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

When Saudi Arabia killed those gays and witches a few years ago, what kind of sanctions did Obama impose?

Lots of sanctions: Zip, Zero, and Nada. And Zilch, too.

Saudi Crown Prince: "I don't know how this happened. I just loved him to pieces."

Ceffer says

Saudi Crown Prince: "I don't know how this happened. I just loved him to pieces."

Ha ha ha. I love it. This dude is the perfect puppet for us. MBS and Trump have a lot in common. They both lie, cheat, break laws, fuck whores, but get done what needs to be done.

It's time we realized nice guys like Obama only make us and the world worse off, because all the bad guys know the Obama types will do nothing.
The assholes like Trump, who kick butt are the ones feared by the bad guys.
Example:
North Korea. They just laughed at Obama and continued with their nukes. Trump comes in and puts a gun on their head, and they pee in their pants.
Pakistan. When Obama had disputes with them, they stopped transporting American supplies to Afghanistan. Obama finally caved in. When Trump comes in, he stops all aid to them, threatens them, and they pee in their pants. They now beg for cooperation, and dare not stop supplies to Afghanistan.
We need more Trumps, not Obamas.

Aphroman says

Strategist says

It's time we realized nice guys like Obama only make us and the world worse off, because all the bad guys know the Obama types will do nothing.
The assholes like Trump, who kick butt are the ones feared by the bad guys.
Example:
North Korea. They just laughed at Obama and continued with their nukes. Trump comes in and puts a gun on their head, and they pee in their pants.
Pakistan. When Obama had disputes with them, they stopped transporting American supplies to Afghanistan. Obama finally caved in. When Trump comes in, he stops all aid to them, threatens them, and they pee in their pants. They now beg for cooperation, and dare not stop supplies to Afghanistan.
We need more Trumps, not Obamas.

I shitted on Obama since day 1. You were the one on Your knees kissing his feet for eight years. Don’t be so bitter

I supported McCain in 2008. I supported Obama in 2012 and changed my mind after 2 years. I apologized to the world for supporting Obama for 2 years.
I like Obama as a person. I don't like Trump as a person. However, who I like and don't like is irrelevant for the job at hand. Trump is the perfect choice for todays world.
"It takes fire to fight fire" and Trump is on fire.

Aphroman says

Kiss muh gold plated converse, Sucka. Alaweed bin Talal owns your ass and so do I.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Aphroman says

Kiss muh gold plated converse, Sucka. Alaweed bin Talal owns your ass and so do I.

Both pics are disgusting. No US president should bow for anyone, not the Queen, not ever. This also goes for W when he held hands while walking with the Saudi monarch. The US president is light years above any world leader both in power and prestige. Even then, we do not require anyone to bow to our leader either.

I don't wonder why the Saudis killed one of their own, in the greater scheme of things there are bigger fish to fry.

Of course, this will be blamed on Trump somehow for attempting better relations with the Saudis.

I wish all our cars ran on natural gas and we would not need a drop of Saudi oil.

The real danger to the USA is coming up from the south through Mexico right this minute.

I would never bow to receive jewelry from anyone, no matter what. I would not bow to 1. Emperor of Japan 2. Saudi Kings 3. Chinese dictators 4. Queen and King of England

I would not let someone hug/kiss me if he were a man, and I would not go prancing around holding hands with a guy even if he were a Saudi king and this were customary for him.

When a guy starts to get close to me and wants to hug me, I push him "bump off!"

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

When Saudi Arabia killed those gays and witches a few years ago, what kind of sanctions did Obama impose?

None, just like Trump. Indistinguishable as indicated.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Khashoggi was a propagandist who worked for the Middle East Monitor, a Muslim Brotherhood affiliated publication. He was belatedly given a job at the WaPo last year, probably on the world of Muslim-Brotherhood=democracy types in the "Intel Community".

Do you deny Khashoggi's connections to the Muslim Brotherhood and OBL?

I have no idea, and neither do you because there was no trial, no evidence presented. Instead, the leader of a supposed US ally murdered a journalist because he wrote unflattering articles and dared speak the truth.

LastMan says

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

When Saudi Arabia killed those gays and witches a few years ago, what kind of sanctions did Obama impose?

None, just like Trump. Indistinguishable as indicated.

Pussy Obama imposing sanctions on bad bad bad people? He had a better way.....Beg. Did not work, but it was still a better way.

tatupu70 says

I have no idea, and neither do you because there was no trial, no evidence presented. Instead, the leader of a supposed US ally murdered a journalist because he wrote unflattering articles and dared speak the truth.

Okay, so how do we blame it all on Trump?

Strategist says

Pussy Obama imposing sanctions on bad bad bad people? He had a better way.....Beg. Did not work, but it was still a better way.

Once again, how is this distinguishable from Trump?

Strategist says

Okay, so how do we blame it all on Trump?

No the question is how to we rationalize it so Trump gets no blame.

Yeah and they've got audio recording of it too. Who records murders? It's a play out of the Bolshevik play book of Commie Bastards starting wars to get their way Vol. III

You're just going to have to go tell them their old Commie Shit don't work on Americans anymore. We're all stocked up on Crazy.

Tenpoundbass says

Yeah and they've got audio recording of it too. Who records murders? It's a play out of the Bolshevik play book of Commie Bastards starting wars to get their way Vol. III

The Saudis didn't record it-Turkey did.

tatupu70 says

Instead, the leader of a supposed US ally murdered a journalist because he wrote unflattering articles and dared speak the truth.

Really curious, what was the "truth" Kashoggi was writing about the current Saudi rulers?

Everything I have read suggests Kashoggi was part of the old Islamist Wahabbi guard and he was pissed that MBS is trying to reform the country to a more moderate Islam and have closer ties to Israel.

socal2 says

Really curious, what was the "truth" Kashoggi was writing about the current Saudi rulers?

Sure--this is a good place to start:

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/11/656682211/why-saudi-arabias-government-felt-threatened-by-journalist-jamal-khashoggi

tatupu70 says

Sure--this is a good place to start:

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/11/656682211/why-saudi-arabias-government-felt-threatened-by-journalist-jamal-khashoggi

This was Kashoggi's main complaint against MBS according to this interview?

____
"HAMID: And he supported some of the general reforms that MbS was trying to put forward, including more rights for women. But he felt that if Saudi Arabia was going to go through a transformation, that the people had to be part of the conversation. And the Saudi leadership and MbS in particular increasingly moved in a direction where they didn't want any questioning of this new direction. And Khashoggi couldn't bring himself to agree with that. And I think that he was pained to have this break with the Saudi regime. He didn't want it."
____

Couldn't that be interpreted that Kashoggi was pissed that MBS was bypassing the old Islamist hardliners which he calls "the people"?

I've honestly yet to see a single thing Kashoggi has written against the Saudis from an liberal/secular angle. Dude just seemed pissed that MBS was trying to change the old Saudi Wahabbi guard which sure as shit needs decades of massive reform.

tatupu70 says

The Saudis didn't record it-Turkey did.

Exactly isn't Turkey in the EU?

I'm beginning to think this Kashoggi guy was a threat to the Trump/MBS alliance, which is why he was tortured for information and killed. If so, I'm all for it. I trust Trump to do what it takes to destroy Islam. In the case of Islam, the end justifies the means.

tatupu70 says

The Saudis didn't record it-Turkey did.

How did they record it? Any proof?

clambo says

Of course, this will be blamed on Trump somehow for attempting better relations with the Saudis.

Yes it will, but in this case I think the left's insane hatred for Trump may actually have some utility.

We don't need better relations with the Saudis. We need zero relations with the Saudis.

And we should make sure they cannot get at their money in the US to fund more terrorism. I don't care how it's done, but they should be completely excluded from the US financial system.

tatupu70 says

No the question is how to we rationalize it so Trump gets no blame.

Why should we blame Trump if the Saudis took out a Muslim Brotherhood sympathizer whose Uncle was a billionaire arms dealer and was connected to somebody serving 23-25 years in prison for financing the assassination of a Saudi Prince?

If we don't blame Obama for not sanctioning Saudi Arabia when it executed Witches and Gays, why are we suddenly holding Trump accountable if the Saudis killed a dangerous terrorist supporter?

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

tatupu70 says

No the question is how to we rationalize it so Trump gets no blame.

Why should we blame Trump if the Saudis took out a Muslim Brotherhood sympathizer whose Uncle was a billionaire arms dealer and was connected to somebody serving 23-25 years in prison for financing the assassination of a Saudi Prince?

If we don't blame Obama for not sanctioning Saudi Arabia when it executed Witches and Gays, why are we suddenly holding Trump accountable if the Saudis killed a dangerous terrorist supporter?

Can you stop with the rational statements? You are confusing the liberals.

Let's review:

1. This kind of shit has been going on forever in the House of Saud, it's just the first time the US Establishment is reporting it, with belated, coincidental timing.
1b. Isn't it odd that they do so just when there are actual, concrete liberal reforms to point to in SA for the first time in decades?
1c. The Establishment is not just being ideological: Plenty of people are pro-Iran Deal and were involved in it, see it as their legacy, and have a personal grudge over it.

2. The Saudis killed a known MB Member, lifelong OBL Friend, Taliban Supporter, who posed with Taliban fighters, and authored pieces for Islamist Propaganda.
2b. And is connected to an assassination financier who is serving 20+ years in the Federal Pen.
2c. And Alaweed bin Talal, who was an opponent of MbS' family members and purchased the Yacht of...
2d. And the nephew of the billionaire Arms dealer Adnan Khashoogi, whose wealth and power is so enormous, Robin Leach and Queen covered his exploits in film and song.

3. Turkey has more journalists in prison than any country in the world, including Iran and China. And most of them were imprisoned in the past 2 years.
3b. Erdogan has definitely been aiding AQ/ISIS and courting Islamists, both domestically and abroad.
3c. Most of the sources are Turkish Government Officials
3d. Most of the reporting is via Isokoff, who is a militant Democrat, appears on Democracy Now!, and co-wrote books with David Corn.
3e. Strategist raised the great point - why visit the Saudi embassy in Turkey, and not London or NY? It's possible Khashoggi was working with Turkey and figured Erdogan the Islamist Symp would protect him? Was he about to give secrets to Turkey, or to the pro-MB types in the Deep State?

4. Left-Islamist Alliance

5. Nothing has been proven yet, but there's a 75/25% chance it was the Saudis.
5b. However Saudi Arabia didn't kill a Journalist. They killed a Muslim Brotherhood Shill.

If you shot John Pilger or Ken Livingstone or Michael Moore, you're not killing a Journalist, you're killing a Shill. Not that I condone such behavior in any way shape or form.

Strategist says

If we don't blame Obama for not sanctioning Saudi Arabia when it executed Witches and Gays, why are we suddenly holding Trump accountable if the Saudis killed a dangerous terrorist supporter?

Sanctions aside, congress can do that. The difference is that Obama didn't go along with a concocted story about "rouge killers" and that the King and Prince told him they knew nothing about those killers and that he believed them over his own intelligence people. Trump or perhaps princeling Jared seems to be either concocting or totally supporting the Saudi "excuse" for the torture killing and butchering of this dude. Did the evil Negro ever do that? Of course Obama hadn't done and continued to do millions in business with these savages. Money, in case you want to open your eyes is one of Tiny's weaknesses. And what do the Saudis have to dangle in front of him? Its how they operate.

Why is Turkey so upset over the death of Kashoggi? They don't go to these lengths on every murder or disappearance.
The plot thickens.

Strategist says

Why is Turkey so upset over the death of Kashoggi

A good question, their hands are dirty in all kinds of ways regarding human rights and due process. I would guess part of it is a killing in Turkey under their noses makes them lose face but likely there are other more sinister motives for their sudden spell righteousness.

HeadSet says

Both pics are disgusting. No US president should bow for anyone, not the Queen, not ever. This also goes for W when he held hands while walking with the Saudi monarch. The US president is light years above any world leader both in power and prestige. Even then, we do not require anyone to bow to our leader either.

THIS. It's called a fucking handshake and move on.