patrick.net

Why not just colonize the moon? A lot closer, and same issues.

Too easy to send distress signals from.

HeadSet says

Why not just colonize the moon? A lot closer, and same issues.

HeadSet says

Why not just colonize the moon? A lot closer, and same issues.

I believe Mars is much closer to the earth's atmosphere and has many more minerals and potential of water compared to the moon. I think they say it is actually easier to land on Mars than the moon - other than the longer journey.

OccasionalCortex says

So oh yeah, Musk Fluffers! Go ahead and drink the Flavor Aid....join the colony and D-I-E.

He will have no shortage of volunteers.

Regardless if going to Mars is worthwhile or not, the work that Space X has already achieved toward this goal has dramatically reducing the cost of space travel by pioneering the ability to reuse rockets.

Later this year, SpaceX will be sending astronauts up to the ISS. We no longer have to hitch rides on Russian rockets.

If you watch the opening to the Expanse series (on Amazon Prime) to can see lights in the canyon walls. Valles Marineris is 2500 miles long, 225 miles wide and up to 6 miles deep. You could fit several entire Grand Canyons inside it. That's a LOT of real estate. Probably water ice somewhere inside the structure that could be mined. Living under several meters of rock is good enough rad protection. And if it gets terrible, docs do research to mitigate radiation and promote DNA repair. Probably leading to life extension treatments as well.

socal2 says

HeadSet says

Why not just colonize the moon? A lot closer, and same issues.

I believe Mars is much closer to the earth's atmosphere and has many more minerals and potential of water compared to the moon. I think they say it is actually easier to land on Mars than the moon - other than the longer journey.

Closer? The pressure that exists on Mars is 2hat we refer to a vacuum by Earth standards. It's .006 atm.

The best option is Venus, in airship floating cities (think Bespin from Star Wars 2: ESB), 50+ miles above the surface, where the atmospheric pressure is ~1 earth atmosphere & where the gravity is similar to earth's own.

This way, ppl may need to wear an acid resistant suit while walking outdoors, along with a gas mask to an O2 tank, but won't have to be in pressurized space suits all day along.

Sure, if you fall off the airship, you're pretty much dead even before hitting the ground but at least it'll be quicker than long term radiation sickness for almost anyone deciding upon Mars.

long term radiation sickness for almost anyone deciding upon Mars.

Venus has no magnetic field, so radiation may still be an issue.

The moon is a much better bet. Not only is there a permanent dark side which would be virtually radiation free, but it’s close to Earth for resupply and such, and the regolith is full of Helium 3, which would be great fuel for fusion reactors. The moon would be an excellent Gas n Go for the rest of the solar system.
All habitations should be underground of course.

Mars is a death trap at this point. Not only is there no reasonable atmosphere, but the soil is HIGHLY toxic with heavy metals and arsenic pervasive. Cleaning it would be a highly involved and extremely intensive process. And importing soil to use to grow food would be ridiculously expensive. Add to this a gravity well that is significant, and it’s quite likely that any trip to mars would be both one way and a death sentence.

I’d want to look out a bit further to the planetoids like Ceres for bases off of Earth. Less gravity, radiation, and possible water to use. Some have mentioned the moons of Jupiter, but the planet itself is close and emits a ridiculous level of radiation which the moons provide no defense against.

Space is going to be difficult. Our best bet is to construct a large space station/hotel/shipyard in the LaGrange point between the moon and the Earth (the point at which the gravity of the moon and the Earth balances to zero.).
Near earth asteroids could be mined and their usable mass of water and minerals sent on unmanned vehicles back to this LaGrange Station, allowing for construction materials for both the station and larger more capable deep space ships which could try out various drives. With the means to test different engines, we might arrive at a truly revolutionary technology which would open the solar system to human exploration and exploitation. But we have to construct many of these ships outside a gravity well.

For example of a drive which would send us around much faster, check out the microwave drive. The thrust seems minimal, maybe 1/100th of a G, but it is constant and can be maintained indefinitely with a nuclear reactor on board. Constant thrust builds to significant velocities over time, which would allow us to make much longer journeys in a fraction of the time.

HeadSet says

long term radiation sickness for almost anyone deciding upon Mars.

Venus has no magnetic field, so radiation may still be an issue.

Oddly enough, given Venus's atmosphere, its ionsphere does interact with the Solar winds to generate a type of slim magnetosphere.

https://www.astrobio.net/also-in-news/a-magnetic-surprise-from-venus/

So while it's not as protective as the earth's intrinsically occurring one, it does give a bit for protection for the twilight and night time sides of the airships so that walking outdoors may still be a possibility whereas during let's say midday, all personnel may need to be indoors and under the airship's coverings ( varied composites summing up to 4" of lead in total), for maximum protection. All and all, while it ain't perfect, it certainly beats the automatic radiation sickness which will occur on Mars unless everyone lives underground in heavily lead shielded prison compartments. Seriously, if one wants to live like that, basically like a rat, it's better to be onboard a spaceship towards Alpha Centauri than rotting on a dead world like Mars.

Mars:
- gravity 38% of earth, no guaranty humans can live long term in such gravity.
- pressure low enough so the fluids in your lungs will start to boil instantly and kill you
- radiations: no magnetic field and atmosphere not thick enough to protect from deadly radiations
- temperatures: outer edge of habitable zone. Usually too cold.

Titan:
- gravity: 0.138 g: slightly less than moon. Too low for humans.
- pressure: 150% of earth. Good.
- radiations: thick atmosphere offers protection from radiations.
- temperature: receives 1% the sun light of earth, and 90% of that is absorbed by the atmosphere, leaving you with 0.1% of earth sunlight, and external temps of −180 °C.
- other challenges:
- Titan's atmosphere contains hydrogen cyanide, and is extremely toxic for humans, and it contains no oxygen.
- very very long trip to get there.

Venus:
- gravity: 90% of earth: check
- pressure on surface: 90x that of earth, around the same as 1000m under water. Enough to crush a car. But at 50km elevation: around 1 atmosphere.
- radiations: no magnetic field, but thick atmosphere can protect from radiations.
- temperatures: around 1000 degrees F on surface. At 50km elevation: 0-50C so good for humans.
- Other challenges:
- sulfuric acid
- constant lightening storms.
- days 117 earth days long, meaning long eras of frying followed by freezing. But high elevation winds circle the planet every four Earth days.


I feel pretty good here on earth. It's way easier to build artificial islands or live underground on earth.

I don't foresee colonies of people living on Mars ever. It will probably be more like small outposts of scientists like we have in Antarctica.

By the time we are ready to send the first humans, SpaceX will have already landed and retrieved the big Starship rockets and will have several more rockets pre-positioned for supplies.

the funny thing is, the same group of people that insist that a one degree shift in temperature is going to cause mass migrations and ecosystem devastation somehow think we can colonize a planet that has no atmosphere, ultrafreezing temperatures, solar radiation, and poisonous soil.

Shaman says

The moon is a much better bet. Not only is there a permanent dark side

It's called the dark side because we never see it. Which also helps to make it the ideal off planet launch pad. The moon always shows the same face to us while the rest of it faces the universe.

Some people think radiations are tolerable with a slightly higher risk of cancer. The reality is that space is full of high energy heavy ions that can kill human cells on impact, including brain cells. We just can't live in space until we have devised an efficient shield and one sufficiently light weight to be carried around.

"Based on calculations of heavy ion fluences during space flight as well as various experimental cell models, as many as 5% of an astronaut's cells might be killed during such missions. With respect to cells in critical brain regions, as many as 13% of such cells may be traversed at least once by an iron ion during a three-year Mars mission."

Wireless remote kill switches capable of electrocuting GPS monitored Tesla drivers, installed by NSA operatives, just weren't enough for Musk, were they?

You know how many people died in the beginning of air flight, not to mention the exploration of the New World and the Route around Africa?

The sooner rockets and colonies fail, and the more people die, the future will get better, faster. And they'll be no lack of daredevil sons of guns volunteering. Some will pay for the privilege of the first failed airlock and busted life support system.

30 Astronaut deaths* since the Space Age began in 1959 is a whole lot less than the number of Antarctica deaths just since 2010. But nobody talks about the futility of Antarctic research.


* Includes ground-based testing, like Apollo 1, and any flights involving astronaut program members while on duty.

Onvacation says

It's called the dark side because we never see it. Which also helps to make it the ideal off planet launch pad. The moon always shows the same face to us while the rest of it faces the universe.

Awesome place for radioastronomy, too.

Shaman says

The thrust seems minimal, maybe 1/100th of a G, but it is constant and can be maintained indefinitely with a nuclear reactor on board. Constant thrust builds to significant velocities over time, which would allow us to make much longer journeys in a fraction of the time.

Yep.

No nukes, no long term space travel. It's basically Fusion or Fission for on demand power, esp. beyond the Belt.

Dust off them NERVAs.

Moon is great for testing ISRUs. First step: Ice to Water to H2 and O2.

socal2 says

I don't foresee colonies of people living on Mars ever. It will probably be more like small outposts of scientists like we have in Antarctica.

Except that Antarctica has air.

The crew on Mars will have to bring everything with them.

Even on Venus, the presence of a high density C02 atmosphere, along with high temps esp below 50M up, could be catalyzed into 02 by robotic factory airships, capable of handling the rough conditions, to pack & send 02 canisters for the human based airships above it which will have their own photosynthesis plants for both, breathable air along with food stuffs.

So things are getting better: it used to be just 8 persons.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-davos-meeting-inequality/worlds-eight-richest-as-wealthy-as-half-humanity-oxfam-tells-davos-idUSKBN150009

HEYYOU says

"Just 162 Billionaires Have The Same Wealth As Half Of Humanity"

I suggest expropriating all their wealth and giving it to more deserving persons, preferably lesbians of color. Then the world will become a much better place to live.

They are young clueless socialists.

I laughed in real life at this response. Made my day. Thank you!!!

rd6B says

HEYYOU says

"Just 162 Billionaires Have The Same Wealth As Half Of Humanity"

I suggest expropriating all their wealth and giving it to more deserving persons, preferably lesbians of color. Then the world will become a much better place to live.

Why... why... why... why....

WATCH: After a campaign event in Mason City, Iowa, @joebiden reacts to @edokeefe's question about his ongoing feud with @berniesanders: "Calm down, it's okay." https://t.co/a2hmMbnjnf pic.twitter.com/ymOMWRR2zP

— CBS News (@CBSNews) January 22, 2020

Dress him like a Russian hooker and let Trump pee on him. Why dull a perfectly good bone saw?

How about allowing time for her to 'open her veins' like the Romans did? Was she a whore of Soros, who started multiple so called anti corruption probes in name only for the purpose of corrupting the economy of Ukraine for his own benefit?

In Ukraine, when something is called 'anti-corruption', it only means a gravity swing of the corruption to a different group of beneficiaries.

The Dems need another Max Headroom Manufactured Manchurian, not these Ludicrous Leftist Pandertard Artists. Where is the CIA when you need them?

Ceffer says

Dress him like a Russian hooker and let Trump pee on him. Why dull a perfectly good bone saw?

Why do you want to see Adam Schiff get an erection?

Fake news.

We heard that in 2016 as well.

AOC shows her fucking stupidity again.

Communist Party of USA exists since 1919: https://www.cpusa.org/

Their website is basically AOC talking points.

You mean after months of wall to wall impeachment, Ukraine and Russian colluuuuussion nonsense 24/7 on the news - Trump is still within the statistical error in all of these polls?

Trump has Wisconsin. Outside of an actual crime or he somehow gets removed from office with this impeachment, I'd bet a decent amount of money on Trump winning Wisconsin by 3-5% of statewide popular vote.

My wife has the entire state of Wisconsin as a territory. We live in IL in a purplish area. So we see both worlds quite a bit. I'm up in Wisconsin maybe 10 times a year and she's up there 30-40 times a year. She works with governments, municipalities, construction contractors and engineers. Most of these people are degreed professionals.

Wisconsin is Trumpland. Marquette (Milwaukee) and UW Madison really are fucking blind about how the rest of the state lives. They behave like coastal elites and are completely disconnected with how some 42 year old dude in Monroe or Mauston makes a living.

Michigan I don't know well enough. I personally think he wins there too, but I wouldn't bet on it. Chicago has WAYYYYY too much influence on the east coast of Lake Michigan. That's where the limousine liberals go. Some do go to Lake Geneva in Wisconsin, but places like Saugatuck, MI are hotbeds for the hard left Chicagoans. From a FIB that likes to camp and get out on lakes, snowboard, snowmobile, drink, etc. Wisconsin is where real men go and Michigan is where the weaker guys go that need contemporarily decorated cabins, scented oils, bug spray and tampons.

1)too early,
2)no negative ads run on any Dem candidate
3)POTUS is currently undergoing impeachment.

After 1)impeachment acquittal (with prejudice most likely)
2)a vigorous campaign by the President
3)several debates
4)plenty of exposure of the unsavory side of the Dem candidate
Trump wins in a landslide.

She's right. The democrats is a center party that would be on the right in Europe.
In fact the only reason they have a woke social agenda, is because they don't want a class based social agenda.

Heraclitusstudent says

She's right. The democrats is a center party that would be on the right in Europe.

I really don't think that's the case any more.

This is why the DNC tried to sabotage Bernie. They don't want any real socialism. The only thing they can stand for now are:
- divisive identity politics,
- presumed "war on women"
- now that the gays are seen as normal, they're down to trans.

Democrats cconomic policy is very similar to right wing corporatism. The only exception is maybe healthcare and taxation. But what they propose there is what every other liberal countries in the world have now. To call it socialism is a bit specious.

Bernie & AOC need their own party if she wants a left party.