patrick.net

ThreeBays says

Yeah, Trump really was a douchebag downplaying this thing

I actually kind of disagree with this. I think we should have had less lockdowns and remained calm with regard to the economy and especially shutting down small business. The R value transmission rate was so high all we could really do was flatten the curve.. which we did back in 2020, and we should have remained calm and left it at that. Now we have a fucked economy with tons of inflation that went to all the rich motherfucking bankers. We are pretty fucked, we just don't know it yet. Sorry for all the foul language tonight. I really dislike bullshitters calling me a liar.

Onvacation says

and fat or unhealthy.

You have to be very old, or very unhealthy, or very, very, unlucky to die of Corona virus.
I lose more respect for the frantic ninnies in this country daily.
There is a higher likelihood of being killed by an alligator on the golf course if you are under 60.

"Among 121 SARS-CoV-2–associated deaths reported to CDC among persons aged <21 years in the United States during February 12–July 31, 2020, 63% occurred in males, 10% of decedents were aged <1 year, 20% were aged 1–9 years, 70% were aged 10–20 years, 45% were Hispanic persons, 29% were non-Hispanic Black (Black) persons, and 4% were non-Hispanic American Indian or Alaska Native (AI/AN) persons. Among these 121 decedents, 91 (75%) had an underlying medical condition,* 79"

This is for 0-21, but the percentage of those with underlying conditions for young adults til age 25 at least if not 30 are probably the same, around 75%. That would cut deaths among "healthy" to 1/4, or 500. 2018 around 70 in 100k adults aged 18-29 died that year, or 14k in 20MM population. So if you track deaths over a year or even longer like it's done for Covid (18 months), around 20k ages 18-29 will die during that time frame of all cases combined. How many with the vaccine? A lot. How many of those where the vaccine is suspected to be at least contributing? Very few but possibly enough to make the.vaccination proposal already moot. Worse as Covid has receded due to natural herd immunity acquired from covid and previous CV infections even completely without vaccinations deaths will be less than 10% of 2020. So those 2000 total or 500 deaths of healthy people will turn into 200 (total) or 50 (healthy) deaths with covid in 2021/2022 per year in the young adult age group, so where's the value proposal here? I remain that it's unethical to coerce young and healthy people, esp. minors.

Zak says

I really dislike bullshitters calling me a liar.

Fuck it. Once again nothing got resolved.

One side thinks it is a deadly killer that warrants every man woman and child ultimately be forced to take the jab and wear a mask to protect their fellow man, and the other side thinks it is a bad cold at worse and doesn't want their rights and freedoms trampled on like they have been for the last year.

Science means open public debate not censorship of anything not matching the official narrative.

One side thinks it is a deadly killer that warrants every man woman and child ultimately be forced to take the jab

can you stop with that? I keep saying over and over it should be a choice. over and over and over. I mean I get that others don't, but how about conversing with people here, rather than fictional others out there?

So if that's the case, isn't there more than just one side or the other? This team against that? Can't it be that we all work together to best figure out how to fight a terrible disease, and have a discourse and debate to pick the best ideas of how we think we should address this thing? And also not trample people's rights?

Onvacation says

Fuck it. Once again nothing got resolved.

oh i think it's pretty clear that it got resolved. The facts show that the vaccine lowers deaths about 100x across all age ranges. The only thing not resolved is an apology from mell to say sorry for calling me a liar when I put up simple data and math that showed he was wrong.

Zak says

Can't it be that we all work together to best figure out how to fight a terrible disease

We can't even agree that the Wuhan is a terrible disease.

Zak says

how to fight a terrible disease

Terrible disease. This thing kills 1 in 400 and they likely have multiple contributing factors. God help us if something like Small Pox ever arrives, with a 30 to 90% mortality rate.

Onvacation says

Zak says

I really dislike bullshitters calling me a liar.

Fuck it. Once again nothing got resolved.

One side thinks it is a deadly killer that warrants every man woman and child ultimately be forced to take the jab and wear a mask to protect their fellow man, and the other side thinks it is a bad cold at worse and doesn't want their rights and freedoms trampled on like they have been for the last year.

Science means open public debate not censorship of anything not matching the official narrative.

@zak didn't call you a liar, but I consider the narrative a lie for the reasons and numbers mentioned. The fatality rate for kids is pretty much zero. They are only required to have measles vaccine (0.2% fatality rate) and a few others to attend public and private school in some states, but not for others, not the flu which is much much more dangerous than covid for kids, so why should we force an experimental covid vaccine, or any covid vaccine on them? We shouldn't.

mell says

@zak didn't call you a liar,

When someone makes a statement and you say "that's a lie" you're calling them a liar. Go ahead and apologize when you feel ready.

If you disagreed with the numbers you would say "I disagree with those numbers".

When they then give you the numbers that show the reason you are "disagreeing with the numbers" is incorrect, then you:
1) apologize for calling them a liar
2) admit that you were wrong about the data

If your mammy didn't teach you, then I will. this is how we behave when we are adults.

What we don't do is what my 5 year old does "I didn't do that"
Own your behavior and admit when you are wrong. You will be surprised that people are quick to forgive and forget when you show integrity.

Zak says

Onvacation says

Fuck it. Once again nothing got resolved.

oh i think it's pretty clear that it got resolved. The facts show that the vaccine lowers deaths about 100x across all age ranges. The only thing not resolved is an apology from mell to say sorry for calling me a liar when I put up simple data and math that showed he was wrong.

Your math is not calculating the risks from both properly imo. I gave my calculations and reasoning behind them. If you don't want to delve into statistics and probability then your calculation is ok with me. It just doesn't reflect the risk, esp. not going forward now that we achieved herd immunity for decades, not via antibodies, but t cell immunity from infections. No matter, even if you forced every single person to get jabbed, it will go endemic and become a seasonal cold/flu from now on. With similar risk profile as a cold or flu.

ThreeBays says

sacrificing the old

That is who has died. The median age of death has been 83. In other words, folks who were fixing to die anyway.

Zak says

richwicks says

what is quite obviously (to me at least) a minor disease.

I mean, 500k people dead. I get that a bunch of them were old and had other conditions.. But fuck, thats a pretty dismissive blow off of half a million people?

No, it's not.

There's 330,000,000 people in the United States, approximately. If the AVERAGE longevity was 80 (and it's not, it's less than that), every year, 330,000,000/80 people die. That's 4,125,000.

supposedly 1/2 million people died of sars-cov2-19 - but there were financial incentives for both doctors and beneficiaries to assign the cause of death to sars-cov2-19.

Zak says

Yeah, the governmental response was shit, but it's a pretty far stretch to pretend this was all just made up or something.

Really? Find that weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq yet? Where's that Russian Collusion? Did the United States "stop the humanitarian crisis that Qaddafi was about to cause" by bombing Libya and leaving it in civil war with operating slavery markets?

They lie constantly. You're still in the zone thinking SOMEBODY with some power or authority or notoriety will call them out.

I'm calling them out. It's frighteningly easy to be brainwashed and we're all subject to it, including me.

I suspect this was nothing more than a cover to bailout banks, support businesses that went along to get along with government, and to crush independent businesses and to single people like me out. I had family that escaped Poland just before the Nazi invasion. I have the "I smell a rat" gene in my DNA. We're not being told the truth, that I know for certain.

Our government is no different than any other group of sociopathic assholes in another government.

You gave some numbers mell says

How many with the vaccine? A lot.

Sorry, no. The number is 29. "A lot" is not a statistic that you compare against.
2125 people in the age range 18-29 died of covid.
29 people have died of the vaccine. Now you can throw out all kinds of other math that you think is right, but if it doesn't reconcile to these numbers, you've made a mistake.

And I'm not talking off by 1 or something. This is a factor of 100x . two orders of magnitude. You already showed you are working with bad data when you said almost none of the 18-29 population is vaccinated. I gave you the link that shows they are vaccinated at similar rates to the general population.

This is how we do science. We post sources and data so we can verify it. We TRY to give people the opportunity to show us how we are WRONG. We don't try to argue without statistics for a position that has been shown to be incorrect. We say "huh, that's strange, I wonder how these calculations I did gave me a number that doesn't agree with the rest of the data consistently."

And when people point out our mistakes we don't call them liars. If we still think we are right, we should be able to show it in simpler and simpler forms, not more and more complicated ones.

These should all be hints to you that you are very fucking wrong.

Zak says

mell says

@zak didn't call you a liar,

When someone makes a statement and you say "that's a lie" you're calling them a liar. Go ahead and apologize when you feel ready.

If you disagreed with the numbers you would say "I disagree with those numbers".

When they then give you the numbers that show the reason you are "disagreeing with the numbers" is incorrect, then you:
1) apologize for calling them a liar
2) admit that you were wrong about the data

If your mammy didn't teach you, then I will. this is how we behave when we are adults.

What we don't do is what my 5 year old does "I didn't do that"
Own your behavior and admit when you are wrong. You will be surprised that people are quick to forgive and forget when you show integrity.

Alright I tried. You don't want to do follow any calculations, you just claim the numbers were contested which they weren't, the calculation and conclusion was. For example what part of the vaers DB only tracks deaths following a few days after the jab vs covid-related (incl. pcr tests and presumed without test) deaths were tracked over 18 months is so hard to understand? Or what part of 75% have underlying health conditions, so the risk for a healthy person is much lower is so hard to follow or model? Or going forward there won't be 2k deaths for that age group, just a fraction of that number, but the risk from the vaccine should hold steady unless it's modified? At least the personal choice is something we all can agree on as minimal common ground.

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=242255

richwicks says

Really? Find that weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq yet?

Nope that one was bullshit. But this one.. gasp.. guess what.. yup we found people sick with covid! Yup, sadly, I know some people that died of it. So yeah.. really. its a shitty fucking disease, and yes, it did in fact kill a bunch more people than otherwise would have died.. and yes, that is a significant thing and not something to scoff at. To do so would be to invite the majority of anyone with a soul to dismiss anything further you had to say as the ramblings of a sociopathic narcisist.

You are welcome to question the governmental overreach in response. I'm on your side with that. But the disease and deaths are not a conspiracy. It's sadly actually happening. The overreach is a bunch of scared officials, which is no excuse.

mell says

You don't want to do follow any calculation

You're not doing calculations. You're dismissing broad swaths of society to fudge your numbers.

"This is for 0-21, but the percentage of those with underlying conditions for young adults til age 25 at least if not 30 are probably the same, around 75%. That would cut deaths among "healthy" to 1/4, or 500."

See that. That's bullshit, not math. You just wrote off your argument for 75% of the population. I'm beginning to think you're just fucking insane and its worthless to even talk to you.

Zak says

Sorry, no. The number is 29. "A lot" is not a statistic that you compare against.
2125 people in the age range 18-29 died of covid.
29 people have died of the vaccine.

We can no longer trust the numbers. Our government obviously was inflating the number of deaths of sars-cov2-19, and is minimizing the deaths from the vaccine.

There's is widespread censorship of people that have had adverse effects, their videos and posts are deleted. You'll never see them on "mainstream news".

You simply can't know what actually has happened. You can know there is censorship, promotion of getting the vaccine, a lack of liability of corporations offering the vaccine, and an inability to discuss this with the wider population.

I don't trust a government or its media flunkies that has REPEATEDLY lied to me - I wonder why you do?

The vaccine might very well be beneficial and largely safe, but EVERYTHING the government is doing makes me distrust them. 2 fucking masks? Masks at all? Censorship? I just don't trust these mother fuckers.

If the vaccine is safe and effective, an unvaccinated person poses NO RISK to the vaccinated. So, why is there his demand that everybody become vaccinated? If the vaccine works, and I'm sick, I'm no threat to you if you are vaccinated. Let me be. If we are both unvaccinated, we're taking the same risk.

Since we can't trust the numbers, more anecdotal formally healthy people that took the jab

MULTIPLE STROKEGASMS

lol, I don't trust the government. I just have no evidence that the numbers as reported are significantly wrong.. And lots of evidence that corroborates them. And a whole shit ton of conspiracy theories that while novel, contain no evidence, just fear. To the extent possible, I don't let fear drive my decisions, rather I try to be informed.

You THINK you don't trust the government, but that is foolish naivety. I guarantee that your primary income is in dollars. You work your little tail into the ground for a FIAT representation of NOTHING. And then you bleat about how you don't trust the government. And you tell ME about how I don't know, to prop up your own sense of smugness and distrust of everything. Let me assure you kiddo, I'm far past you on my general mistrust of all things. It's what you can build on and use that is real, not what someone tells you. If you don't trust the government, then you better not drive on the fucking freeway, because the bridge might crumble under you. Those fucking dishonest rascals are probably trying to trick you right now!

But not everything is a lie. If everything was a lie, it would be simple. Why? Because then the opposite of what was said would be the truth, and therefore by defacto every lie would be the truth because through knowing what was false, you would know the truth. So to tell a lie, you must also tell the truth, otherwise there is no point to lie. Therefore the best lie that could be told would be the lie that the truth is a lie. And this is where you are. you now believe the lie that the truth is the lie. And therefore, when it is time for the lie, they will tell you the lie as the truth. And you will believe it is a lie and not the truth, and therefore you will believe the lie. And that is what they want. not for you to believe the truth, but to believe the lie.

Zak says

But not everything is a lie. If everything was a lie, it would be simple. Why? Because then the opposite of what was said would be the truth, and therefore by defacto every lie would be the truth because through knowing what was false, you would know the truth. So to tell a lie, you must also tell the truth, otherwise there is no point to lie. Therefore the best lie that could be told would be the lie that the truth is a lie. And this is where you are. you now believe the lie that the truth is the lie. And therefore, when it is time for the lie, they will tell you the lie as the truth. And you will believe it is a lie and not the truth, and therefore you will believe the lie. And that is what they want. not for you to believe the truth, but to believe the lie.

Translation: you don't know.

richwicks says

If the vaccine works, and I'm sick, I'm no threat to you if you are vaccinated. Let me be.

If you read my posts, I will let you be, and i will advocate FOR you that everyone else let you be as well.

Let's unpack your childish statement a bit tho, shall we?

Can I also let you be and since you've refused vaccination, our doctors get to refuse to treat you if you get sick? Why not? They're not hurting you, Covid is!

Can I refuse to let you into my business because i don't want you interacting with my other customers who may be unvaccinated? Yeah i sure can! free country after all!

but but, i thought employers weren't allowed to discriminate based on health status? uhh why not? we are going free country here and shit are we not? Its a private business, they aren't hurting you by refusing you service or employment, go do some other job, or get your food elsewhere.

The reality of your naive statement is that its just fucking self centered and ignores all aspects of the fact that you live amongst other people.

I still support your right to make your own decisions, but I'll continue to tell you they are stupid and childish for the reasons you state. Maybe on the other hand, you do have some private concern that you'd rather not let me be privy to, and that is one of the few reasons I still hold back and say you should retain the right to make the choice. I'm not you, will never be you, and shouldn't expect to force you to live the way i think, as long as it reasonably doesn't impact me. If that were the case though, you should shut the fuck up about how your choices don't impact anyone else, because they clearly do.

Onvacation says

Translation: you don't know.

Is that true or a lie?

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/05/06/india-doctors-hiding-kiley-pkg-lead-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus-intl/

ehh.. not that bad really.. just runs the whole ICU out of oxygen... or is this fake news because CNN is the source..??

https://www.foxnews.com/world/sos-messages-panic-virus-breaks-indias-health-system

Zak says

Let's unpack your childish statement a bit tho, shall we?

Dispense with insults. There's no point in them. If you take issue with a conclusion, do that, alone and save time.

Zak says

Can I also let you be and since you've refused vaccination, our doctors get to refuse to treat you if you get sick? Why not? They're not hurting you, Covid is!

Why would a doctor do this? If they have the vaccine, the are immune to the disease - and if they don't have the vaccine they have the same level of trust in them that I do.

Again, provided the vaccination is effective, the only people are risk are the people who are unvaccinated.

Zak says

Can I refuse to let you into my business because i don't want you interacting with my other customers who may be unvaccinated? Yeah i sure can! free country after all!

My opinion is that you can refuse to allow me into your business for any reason at all, up to and including that I'm white, black, or asian. You're free to subvert your own business.

Zak says

but but, i thought employers weren't allowed to discriminate based on health status? uhh why not? we are going free country here and shit are we not? Its a private business, they aren't hurting you by refusing you service or employment, go do some other job, or get your food elsewhere.

Fine with me.

Zak says

The reality of your naive statement is that its just fucking self centered and ignores all aspects of the fact that you live amongst other people.

Again, I'm pointing out if the vaccination is effective, even if I'm a carrier, I'm not a threat to the vaccinated.

Provided it works.

You've not addressed that.

Zak says

I still support your right to make your own decisions, but I'll continue to tell you they are stupid and childish for the reasons you state.

They aren't stupid, and certainly not childish.

Childishness is having complete faith in an authority. In my opinion, you're mistaking your government for mommy and daddy. Your government is a criminal syndicate that ruthlessly exploits you. Adults recognize this, but there's few of them. I'm tired of living among children.

richwicks says

Again, I'm pointing out if the vaccination is effective, even if I'm a carrier, I'm not a threat to the vaccinated.

Provided it works.

You've not addressed that.

Nor did I say you were. The vaccine isn't recommended for children under 18. Why do you hate children ?

Zak says

richwicks says

Again, I'm pointing out if the vaccination is effective, even if I'm a carrier, I'm not a threat to the vaccinated.

Provided it works.

You've not addressed that.

Nor did I say you were. The vaccine isn't recommended for children under 18. Why do you hate children ?

I'm trying to have a serious conversation and expect you to do the same. Don't strawman me, or give me disingenuous thinking.

As far as I can (currently) see, there is no legitimate rationale to demand a person to get a vaccination - provided it's effective, and it's it's not effective, then there's no legitimate reason to even get the vaccination.

If the vaccine works, the unvaccinated aren't a threat to the vaccinated since they are immune.
If the vaccine doesn't work, there's no point in taking the vaccine at all.

Where's the error in my reasoning? I could be missing something, but this is something I've been asking for over a year without an answer. If I have an error in my logic and reasoning, please, point it out.

richwicks says

Dispense with insults. There's no point in them.

1) I didn't call you childish, i characterized your statement as childish, meaning it lacks the insight, empathy, and depth of understanding.
You personally may not be childish, but making statements like this would lead me to believe that is more likely to be the case.

2) A doctor might refuse to treat you because they have something better to do for instance. Maybe they feel like taking care of someone who doesn't behave like a blight on society. Maybe the hospital deems your case unprofitable. If it doesn't matter to you how you interact with society, why should it matter to any of the rest of us how we treat you?

3) What does the government have to do with this? Mommy and daddy? wtf? the cdc aggregating a bunch of numbers and me using that as one data source among many to determine that the virus is killing people, and the vaccine seems to be effective puts me in the boat of the government is my mommy and daddy? bwahahahahahahhaahhahaha


hahahahahahahahahahahha




hahahahhahahahahahahahahaahhaha


I won't harass you anymore.. loll you gave me a good enough laugh that


hehehehe lol omg I keep laughin...

go earn some more dollars.. have a nice life...

richwicks says

I'm trying to have a serious conversation and expect you to do the same.

How can I treat you seriously when you don't think past the end of your sentence?

"As far as I can (currently) see, there is no legitimate rationale to demand a person to get a vaccination"

And we don't "demand" that you get the vaccine. We just show you repeatedly that it is both stupid for yourself, and reckless with regards to several other segments of society for you to not do it. I'm just a guy on the internet, I can "demand" anything, but at the end of the day, I am just communicating with you. No words I type here can change anything other than your mind.

Zak says

A doctor might refuse to treat you because they have something better to do for instance. Maybe they feel like taking care of someone who doesn't behave like a blight on society.

In what what could I be a "blight on society" if I'm only harming people who are like minded like me?

Zak says

What does the government have to do with this? Mommy and daddy? wtf?

Are you serious?

I'm a year into a lockdown in California over a virus of which I have less than a 1% chance of dying from. I've seen 1/2 dozen businesses close because they weren't allowed to operate, as our government promised them over and over again - that in a few weeks they could open.

But there's no problem with me going to McDonald's or Walmart...

Zak says

I won't harass you anymore.. loll you gave me a good enough laugh that

You're not harassing me. I think you're just disingenuous. I don't see the point in discussion when one of the people is being dishonest about their thinking and opinions.

Zak says

hehehehe lol omg I keep laughin...

I doubt it. I think it's just a dig at me, as you cannot explain any error in my logic.

richwicks says

I'm a year into a lockdown in California over a virus of which I have less than a 1% chance of dying from.

Ok good. lets hit this.

1) You have a complaint
2) Your complaint is valid
3) I'm telling you it is wise to get the vaccine
4) My statement has no impact or ability to influence the thing you have a complaint about, only your personal situation with respect to the virus, and your ability to spread it though the rest of the unvaccinated (and a tiny portion of the vaccinated) population
5) Your conclusion is that the government is my mommy and daddy


Do you see any break from reality there?

Zak says

I'm telling you it is wise to get the vaccine

Why is this wise? I've hang glided, I skied for 30 years. I've biked over 20,000 miles in remote areas. I've gone hiking in completely unknown wilderness. I've taken risks all my life, to my benefit I believe.

The question is - how do I endanger others by NOT taking the vaccine - because as far as I can determine, I don't.

Let me make my own stupid decisions.

Zak says

Your conclusion is that the government is my mommy and daddy

No. I'm pointing out that the government has never taken care of its population, and never will. It exploits them, exclusively. In my opinion, and it is an opinion, if you trust the government to care for you, you're very foolish.

Zak says

Do you see any break from reality there?

No. From what you've written, you've drawn a conclusion without showing actual reasoning. You conclusion is based on a non-sequitur.

richwicks says

Let me make my own stupid decisions.

Where did I say you can't? All I'm telling you is you don't live in a bubble where your poor choices affect no one, and the statement that you do is childish.

If you want to stamp your feet and be childish.. so be it..

You came onto patnet though. Presumably you have some idea that it might be a good idea to take some responsibility in figuring out how the world works, and how you can be successful in it, despite the poor choices by people and governments around you. My suggestion is that you start by not being in the poor choice making camp.

Just like if someone were to say "I need a house, I SHOULD pay 1 million dollars right now because that's what the bank will loan me despite my income being only 10% of that."

Well.. yeah, I can't stop someone from doing it. But I can tell the that they are being childish.

And i should also be able to say hey don't take my tax money and give it to that guy in a bailout... but will you respect my right to not be taxed for that stupid shit? No you will not.

Oh you will say you don't believe it should be done.. but are you going to reach into your pocket and make me whole? No you're fucking not. You're going to tell me the government is my mommy and daddy.

The anti-vaxxers seem beholden to the fact that Covid has a low mortality rate for the younger population cohort.

Overall, the mortality rate is just slightly lower than that of the measles. Yet nobody on this site is proposing that people not get the measles vaccine. The same arguments for not getting the Covid vaccine can be made for not getting the measles vaccine.

Society in general does not want communicable diseases sweeping through the population. Hence, when there is a proven vaccine that has been determined to be safe by the experts. it is tough to argue against taking it.

Have the dangers of Covid been overhyped? ----- No Shit Does the government lie? ---- No Shit

Has every government in the world lied about millions dying from the disease? --- Doubtful

As to the fixation on the death rate, millions have been hospitalized for this disease, but haven't died. It is not something that anyone would want to contract.

Here's a little blurb not on death statistics but on hospitalization stats.

https://www.tfah.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/COVIDunderlyingconditions040320.pdf

Zak says

https://www.foxnews.com/world/sos-messages-panic-virus-breaks-indias-health-system

Fake News / propaganda.

Zak says

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/05/06/india-doctors-hiding-kiley-pkg-lead-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus-intl/

ehh.. not that bad really.. just runs the whole ICU out of oxygen... or is this fake news because CNN is the source..??

Fake news / propaganda. That, and if it's true, it says more about one places ability to maintain supplies, or shitty procurement processes.

CNN is Communist propaganda and very very gay.
https://patrick.net/post/1240230/2014-03-25-cnn-comes-out-as-gay?0#comments

Zak says

richwicks says

Let me make my own stupid decisions.

Where did I say you can't? All I'm telling you is you don't live in a bubble where your poor choices affect no one, and the statement that you do is childish.

I'm pointing out again, that my "stupid decisions" do not risk you. You should not demand other people be vaccinated.

Zak says

If you want to stamp your feet and be childish.. so be it..

I'm a bit recalcitrant than that. I simply will not comply.

Zak says

You came onto patnet though. Presumably you have some idea that it might be a good idea to take some responsibility in figuring out how the world works, and how you can be successful in it, despite the poor choices by people and governments around you. My suggestion is that you start by not being in the poor choice making camp.

Have you ever attempted to be part of a gestalt? I have. I take complete responsibility for myself. You can consider my choices poor ones, I don't care.

Zak says

Just like if someone were to say "I need a house, I SHOULD pay 1 million dollars right now because that's what the bank will loan me despite my income being only 10% of that."

Well.. yeah, I can't stop someone from doing it. But I can tell the that they are being childish.

I'd argue they are driving the rest of the population into poverty and slavery, but I won't stop them.

Zak says

And i should also be able to say hey don't take my tax money and give it to that guy in a bailout... but will you respect my right to not be taxed for that stupid shit? No you will not.

I'd argue against taxation for you. Nobody should be supported by taxation in my opinion. That includes politicians, the military, and educators.

Zak says

Oh you will say you don't believe it should be done.. but are you going to reach into your pocket and make me whole? No you're fucking not. You're going to tell me the government is my mommy and daddy.

I believe your taxes should be nearly non existent.

Taxation is slavery. Some people are exempt from it, they are our owners.

Misc says

Yet nobody on this site is proposing that people not get the measles vaccine. The same arguments for not getting the Covid vaccine can be made for not getting the measles vaccine.

Not about an argument. It's about a rushed through vaccine that we have zero clue of long term effects.

Asbestos was all the rage and we still are dealing with it in homes and businesses. How about them led pipes and paint? We got that wrong for decades and probably killed or disable probably 10's of millions of people from two mundane products that were thought to be safe. Not even a medication which we've currently got FDA approved ones killing people on a daily basis.

I'm talking about an injection that could be a slow killer via cancer or other conditions. Not a person commenting here or in the world can guarantee no long term consequences. ZERO. So for that reason I'm out and all this debating back and forth is just silliness.

I won't bash anyone that's gotten it. I frankly just fear for them because some may get cancer in 5 years and have no clue if it was from this vaccine. Or from the above products I mention that the government let go for decades...

I also don't necessarily think it's a conspiracy. It's just government inefficiency with data with a topping of media spin to freak everyone out. I've known a lot of people over the years. I've only known of two deadly heart attacks, the number 1 killer of people. Yes it's more time for the heart attack, but I still don't know anyone that died of covid.

I hope the billions going to big pharma for this end up getting pumped into research for real deadly conditions.... lol..... did I just type that?

*Edit - Forgot the measles part. We know 100% that vaccine is safe at this point and works. My kids have taken it. The whole family has had it at some point. The problem with pushing THIS vaccine is you're going to make a bunch of anti-vaxxers out of it (not you specifically Misc.) We need to let people soak in the information and give it time. Most people don't get the flu shot and that's "recommended" as well.