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3645
richwicks
2021 Jul 25, 12:29am
richwicks
2021 Jul 25, 12:29am
Ceffer says
Yes, this would be true, if "audiophiles" subjected themselves to double blind experiments and they won't. They can't distinguish between records and CDs, unless the record has pops in it.
When I worked at RCA there was considerable research done for audio and visual duplication. Believe me, a machine is FAR more advanced at detecting sound distortion than a human being is. "Audiophiles" really didn't exist much then other than music enthusiasts, but they came out of the word work over time. Gold plated Ethernet cables, AC isolation for a turntable, all sorts of crazy crap. Ethernet cables are digital, and the transmission is done with a CRC32, the chance of an erroneous packet making it through is less than 1 in 4 billion, and beyond that 1 in 1000 to pass the CRC - doesn't really matter what the metal is in the cable. AC isolation is pointless, because the power is rectified and then turned into DC, we can (and do) have very noisy power without effect. This has been true for at least 40 years.
Sure, records may very well sound different (and they do), but this is intentional distortion that an audio engineer introduced so the needle doesn't skip out of the groove. We can duplicate this distortion digitally, if there was a market want, but there isn't.
We have the same problem (sort of) with digital video reproduction. People SWEAR that a 4K television is FAR better than 1080p. It is better, strictly from a technical perspective, but you can't see it unless you have perfect vision, and even then you won't notice it in a film - you'll see it with text. Now there's 8K and even 16K video - this is entirely pointless - this is more pixels than you have retinal sensors.
Ceffer says
Like me using a Babbage machine to do a calculation. It's an experience, but it's just the experience itself. I get the same result as a calculator, just much slower.
Ceffer says
It's an indication of gullibility. There's people that swear that tape cassettes are superior to CDs or MP3s. Well, there are some pretty bad prints of CDs today, so perhaps they are correct, but it's not a fault of the technology, it's the fault of the technicians printing the master.
The Pink Floyd CDs from the 1990's are superior to what is produced today for example. They maximize and normalize the loudness today, and it's not uncommon to see clipping on modern CDs. They intentionally make crap.
We have perfected sound and video duplication, long ago. Today, it's just storing the same information in less bits, that's the struggle. H264 is regularly used for video compression, but H265 kicks its butt. The problem is that it's not supported very well, but you can easily get a very high quality video that is 2 hours long, that is less than 1GB. We're at the point where improvement is met with "who cares? I can't ever fill up this 128 GB storage card anyhow". You can store 60 films on a $20 SD Card now. That's 120 hours. If you spent 8 hours a day watching films, it would take you over 15 days to watch them all and that's HD 1080p quality. You'd never realize you're not watching a Blu Ray.
For A/V - we're at the end. All we can do is make it smaller, we're at the point where digital recording FAR surpasses chemical film. The typical video quality of broadcast television outstrips the quality of a movie theater did in 1990. We can make it technically better, that a machine could detect, but not a human being can detect.
However one would worship or curse the technology, the ears make the final determination
Yes, this would be true, if "audiophiles" subjected themselves to double blind experiments and they won't. They can't distinguish between records and CDs, unless the record has pops in it.
When I worked at RCA there was considerable research done for audio and visual duplication. Believe me, a machine is FAR more advanced at detecting sound distortion than a human being is. "Audiophiles" really didn't exist much then other than music enthusiasts, but they came out of the word work over time. Gold plated Ethernet cables, AC isolation for a turntable, all sorts of crazy crap. Ethernet cables are digital, and the transmission is done with a CRC32, the chance of an erroneous packet making it through is less than 1 in 4 billion, and beyond that 1 in 1000 to pass the CRC - doesn't really matter what the metal is in the cable. AC isolation is pointless, because the power is rectified and then turned into DC, we can (and do) have very noisy power without effect. This has been true for at least 40 years.
Sure, records may very well sound different (and they do), but this is intentional distortion that an audio engineer introduced so the needle doesn't skip out of the groove. We can duplicate this distortion digitally, if there was a market want, but there isn't.
We have the same problem (sort of) with digital video reproduction. People SWEAR that a 4K television is FAR better than 1080p. It is better, strictly from a technical perspective, but you can't see it unless you have perfect vision, and even then you won't notice it in a film - you'll see it with text. Now there's 8K and even 16K video - this is entirely pointless - this is more pixels than you have retinal sensors.
Ceffer says
A nice record on a turntable is still a special experience, although digital is also quite good these days.
Like me using a Babbage machine to do a calculation. It's an experience, but it's just the experience itself. I get the same result as a calculator, just much slower.
Ceffer says
The fact that young people have resurrected this 'technology' on the basis of sound quality, in spite of measurements, is as much a surprise to me as to anybody else.
It's an indication of gullibility. There's people that swear that tape cassettes are superior to CDs or MP3s. Well, there are some pretty bad prints of CDs today, so perhaps they are correct, but it's not a fault of the technology, it's the fault of the technicians printing the master.
The Pink Floyd CDs from the 1990's are superior to what is produced today for example. They maximize and normalize the loudness today, and it's not uncommon to see clipping on modern CDs. They intentionally make crap.
We have perfected sound and video duplication, long ago. Today, it's just storing the same information in less bits, that's the struggle. H264 is regularly used for video compression, but H265 kicks its butt. The problem is that it's not supported very well, but you can easily get a very high quality video that is 2 hours long, that is less than 1GB. We're at the point where improvement is met with "who cares? I can't ever fill up this 128 GB storage card anyhow". You can store 60 films on a $20 SD Card now. That's 120 hours. If you spent 8 hours a day watching films, it would take you over 15 days to watch them all and that's HD 1080p quality. You'd never realize you're not watching a Blu Ray.
For A/V - we're at the end. All we can do is make it smaller, we're at the point where digital recording FAR surpasses chemical film. The typical video quality of broadcast television outstrips the quality of a movie theater did in 1990. We can make it technically better, that a machine could detect, but not a human being can detect.
3646
Ceffer
2021 Jul 25, 12:52am
Ceffer
2021 Jul 25, 12:52am
OK, you win, now I'll go back and listen to a nice record along with the gullible yutes.
3647
richwicks
2021 Jul 25, 1:01am
richwicks
2021 Jul 25, 1:01am
Ceffer says
It's not about winning.
There's certainly different sound reproduction on a vinyl record than a CD - even if they are both mastered with excellent sound technicians. I'm pointing out that in the case, that there isn't clipping or messing with the master's sound levels, CD is closer to the original master than a vinyl record is.
Now, you may not prefer that. I'm not saying that's wrong.
If you ever heard Pink Floyd in concert expecting to hear the same thing you did on their most excellent CD's and vinyl records, you would be disappointed, because, their music is heavily over-sampled and modified to produce what you hear on their releases. What you hear on a Pink Floyd CD isn't anything a human being can actually play. When you listen to a CD from them, you're listening to one song, that has been played dozens of times, spliced together, added reverb, and overlap of music. They never sounded that way in the studio.
OK, you win, now I'll go back and listen to a nice record along with the gullible yutes.
It's not about winning.
There's certainly different sound reproduction on a vinyl record than a CD - even if they are both mastered with excellent sound technicians. I'm pointing out that in the case, that there isn't clipping or messing with the master's sound levels, CD is closer to the original master than a vinyl record is.
Now, you may not prefer that. I'm not saying that's wrong.
If you ever heard Pink Floyd in concert expecting to hear the same thing you did on their most excellent CD's and vinyl records, you would be disappointed, because, their music is heavily over-sampled and modified to produce what you hear on their releases. What you hear on a Pink Floyd CD isn't anything a human being can actually play. When you listen to a CD from them, you're listening to one song, that has been played dozens of times, spliced together, added reverb, and overlap of music. They never sounded that way in the studio.
3648
Ceffer
2021 Jul 25, 1:27am
Ceffer
2021 Jul 25, 1:27am
I'm sure you'll enjoy the rest of your life figuring it all out, but now it's time for a second excellent record on an obsolete turntable.
Yes, I have heard Pink Floyd in concert live and I have also heard a 15IPS low generation master tape of 'The Wall' on a very expensive stereo system. At least from what I heard, they sound better in concert than most of what they recorded. The tape sounds so amazing, that any other format is a strictly degenerative experience by comparison.
The problem is, if you have never heard these things or made these comparisons, you will just never know. Most people don't care about quality sound. The closest most people have heard are in the large horn systems in movie theaters.
Also, you can't generalize about mastering because it is all over the map. Studio engineers are often artists, too, and there do exist recordings that are very carefully mastered and minimally compressed or uncompressed.
Yes, I have heard Pink Floyd in concert live and I have also heard a 15IPS low generation master tape of 'The Wall' on a very expensive stereo system. At least from what I heard, they sound better in concert than most of what they recorded. The tape sounds so amazing, that any other format is a strictly degenerative experience by comparison.
The problem is, if you have never heard these things or made these comparisons, you will just never know. Most people don't care about quality sound. The closest most people have heard are in the large horn systems in movie theaters.
Also, you can't generalize about mastering because it is all over the map. Studio engineers are often artists, too, and there do exist recordings that are very carefully mastered and minimally compressed or uncompressed.
3651
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 25, 9:51am
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 25, 9:51am
Booger says
That photo looks like the customers are their own Hibachi Grill Masters.
I think I would much rather prefer that than 80% of the Hibachi grillers I've had at those places. On a plus side, nobody will force you to open your mouth so the Hibachi Chef can squirt Saki in your mouth through a clear ketchup squeeze bottle.
That photo looks like the customers are their own Hibachi Grill Masters.
I think I would much rather prefer that than 80% of the Hibachi grillers I've had at those places. On a plus side, nobody will force you to open your mouth so the Hibachi Chef can squirt Saki in your mouth through a clear ketchup squeeze bottle.
3652
mell
2021 Jul 25, 12:20pm
HunterTits says
Why not? Because the incoming train would simply sever the hose? Still be a problem for the hose operators, no?
That actually would not cause a problem.
Why not? Because the incoming train would simply sever the hose? Still be a problem for the hose operators, no?
3653
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 25, 12:21pm
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 25, 12:21pm
Ceffer says
When I said an Album collection from the early 80's, I meant the Records collected over the last 20 years prior to the 80's. The 80's is when music started going to hell. Every band in your record collection, had far better albums from the70's or 60's than the commercial grade crap they put out in the 80's. Van Halen's 1984 Album for example, the worst album they ever put out.
My younger relatives tend to know music from the 1980's, even though they themselves were not born until the 1990's. I'm always surprised by this.
I have a couple thousand vinyl records and a super stereo system. When my nephew and his old chum girl friend came over some years ago, I was shocked because they saw all those records, piled them on the floor, and spent an hour and a half looking through them with feeding frenzy, and picked the ones they wanted me to play. All the pre-80's stuff and some early 80's.
When I said an Album collection from the early 80's, I meant the Records collected over the last 20 years prior to the 80's. The 80's is when music started going to hell. Every band in your record collection, had far better albums from the70's or 60's than the commercial grade crap they put out in the 80's. Van Halen's 1984 Album for example, the worst album they ever put out.
3654
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 25, 12:32pm
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 25, 12:32pm
Ceffer says
It goes way beyond the sound quality and more about the fidelity of the music.
For example the human male voice, that is not a low baritone but normal sounding. Seems to have no registries in the lower frequencies that would require a cross over and subwoofer system to hear them. But the difference in someone speaking or singing in a PA that has a Subwoofer system, vs one that doesn't. Is more stark contrast than night and day. They may not be present in the vocal chords, but they are part of the sibilants and rumbles produced by your throat, mouth and tongue movements. There are so many semitones, produced with every note on every instrument, including the vocals, that CD's do not pick up. I don't care how polished and clean the engineer made the digital track sound. And it can get dam good at 192K 24bit recording samples, but then it gets converted to 16bit 44.1 KHz. I absolutely loath and detest the joyless fucks, that claim they can't tell the difference, so there for, there should never analog recording or devices to play them on.
They are same sorry fuckers, that think everyone should wear a mask, because they feel safer wearing one, even when they are driving a car alone.
The problem is, if you have never heard these things or made these comparisons, you will just never know. Most people don't care about quality sound. The closest most people have heard are in the large horn systems in movie theaters.
Also, you can't generalize about mastering because it is all over the map. Studio engineers are often artists, too, and there do exist recordings that are very carefully mastered and minimally compressed or uncompressed.
It goes way beyond the sound quality and more about the fidelity of the music.
For example the human male voice, that is not a low baritone but normal sounding. Seems to have no registries in the lower frequencies that would require a cross over and subwoofer system to hear them. But the difference in someone speaking or singing in a PA that has a Subwoofer system, vs one that doesn't. Is more stark contrast than night and day. They may not be present in the vocal chords, but they are part of the sibilants and rumbles produced by your throat, mouth and tongue movements. There are so many semitones, produced with every note on every instrument, including the vocals, that CD's do not pick up. I don't care how polished and clean the engineer made the digital track sound. And it can get dam good at 192K 24bit recording samples, but then it gets converted to 16bit 44.1 KHz. I absolutely loath and detest the joyless fucks, that claim they can't tell the difference, so there for, there should never analog recording or devices to play them on.
They are same sorry fuckers, that think everyone should wear a mask, because they feel safer wearing one, even when they are driving a car alone.
3655
Ceffer
2021 Jul 25, 1:46pm
Ceffer
2021 Jul 25, 1:46pm
80's to about '95, digital just about killed audio it was so bad. There was some good music, but it was so bad sounding it would make you brack. Digital made mastering guys lazy, and radio stations abandoned turntables for digital over the airwaves. FM radio is a pretty good sounding medium, but the digital over FM wasn't so hot.
Analog started being 'rediscovered' again in the mid 90's. Digital has gotten progressively better due to acknowledgment that it sucked, and about 2010 actually became decent and continues to get better. So, it only took 30 or 40 years of 'progress' in 'perfect sound forever' to become listenable. Now, inexpensive Chinese DAC's sound pretty good.
However, to really experience music in a way that seems natural, tuneful and toneful, many audiophiles still like analog.
The old music is good, but it was also generally mastered well in analog. Some of the stereo recordings from the early 60's and late 50's are some of the most revered still because they used tube electronics and printed to vinyl. There are even some studios that have re-adopted tube mastering, tape, vinyl etc., although the subjectivists would say that this is archaic and foolish given the 'perfection' of modern digital.
i used to browse Downbeat magazine. They had a section in the back describing how musicians developed and chose their instruments. One article was by a musician who spent two years trying to develop a particular formulation for a single cymbal that he wanted to sound a certain way. If you don't think 'subjective' sound matters, talk to some of these guys.
Analog started being 'rediscovered' again in the mid 90's. Digital has gotten progressively better due to acknowledgment that it sucked, and about 2010 actually became decent and continues to get better. So, it only took 30 or 40 years of 'progress' in 'perfect sound forever' to become listenable. Now, inexpensive Chinese DAC's sound pretty good.
However, to really experience music in a way that seems natural, tuneful and toneful, many audiophiles still like analog.
The old music is good, but it was also generally mastered well in analog. Some of the stereo recordings from the early 60's and late 50's are some of the most revered still because they used tube electronics and printed to vinyl. There are even some studios that have re-adopted tube mastering, tape, vinyl etc., although the subjectivists would say that this is archaic and foolish given the 'perfection' of modern digital.
i used to browse Downbeat magazine. They had a section in the back describing how musicians developed and chose their instruments. One article was by a musician who spent two years trying to develop a particular formulation for a single cymbal that he wanted to sound a certain way. If you don't think 'subjective' sound matters, talk to some of these guys.
3656
Ceffer
2021 Jul 25, 2:13pm
Ceffer
2021 Jul 25, 2:13pm
If you really want the lunatic fringe of hi end audio, watch this video and see if you can find any turntables. Munich High End Audio Show 2019. Sorry for Bad Tube, Pat. The costs can also be staggering, and there are audio nuts that pay them:
https://youtu.be/mNParABvqWA
https://youtu.be/mNParABvqWA
3657
richwicks
2021 Jul 25, 2:16pm
richwicks
2021 Jul 25, 2:16pm
HunterTits says
Unlikely it could, but should a train pass through, IF it worked, it would derail the train (and I doubt that), and if it didn't work, the train would just slice through it.
RC2006 says
That actually would not cause a problem.
Unlikely it could, but should a train pass through, IF it worked, it would derail the train (and I doubt that), and if it didn't work, the train would just slice through it.
3659
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 25, 4:29pm
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 25, 4:29pm
Ceffer says
It's not that it got better, they quit recording analog equipment, so there would be no inferior recording of it.
The DAW produced Midi and WAV files give them a pallet to paint with and boundaries that wont stray outside the line.
What we've ended up with is a homogenized sterile digital soundscape that more background noise, than music that actually connects with people on a sonic level.
You can watch the most talented guy play a whole ensemble on a Oaysis the most advanced keyboard today. The audience would not be as into it, as if there was an acual horn ensemble playing the piece.
We used to have a local Jazz band, they were averagely decent. There was a keyboard guy that could play anything in any genre. He would go on and do a piece with a horn section played on his keyboard. The band with the horn section came out, the people went nuts, even the cheesiest horn solo got roaring ovation. Nobody gave a crap when the keyboard guy went into his 20 minute flute solo.
Digital has gotten progressively better due to acknowledgment that it sucked, and about 2010 actually became decent and continues to get better.
It's not that it got better, they quit recording analog equipment, so there would be no inferior recording of it.
The DAW produced Midi and WAV files give them a pallet to paint with and boundaries that wont stray outside the line.
What we've ended up with is a homogenized sterile digital soundscape that more background noise, than music that actually connects with people on a sonic level.
You can watch the most talented guy play a whole ensemble on a Oaysis the most advanced keyboard today. The audience would not be as into it, as if there was an acual horn ensemble playing the piece.
We used to have a local Jazz band, they were averagely decent. There was a keyboard guy that could play anything in any genre. He would go on and do a piece with a horn section played on his keyboard. The band with the horn section came out, the people went nuts, even the cheesiest horn solo got roaring ovation. Nobody gave a crap when the keyboard guy went into his 20 minute flute solo.
3660
HeadSet
2021 Jul 25, 7:50pm
HeadSet
2021 Jul 25, 7:50pm
richwicks says
Do not forget VHS HiFi. VHS HiFi is analog, but the equivalent of playing a tape deck at 18 feet per second (regular reel-to-reel is about 7.5 inches per second). Although the best analog by far, VHS HiFi was like Quadrasonic in that it was superior but did not catch on.
There is HONESTLY no advantage of analogue over digital.
Do not forget VHS HiFi. VHS HiFi is analog, but the equivalent of playing a tape deck at 18 feet per second (regular reel-to-reel is about 7.5 inches per second). Although the best analog by far, VHS HiFi was like Quadrasonic in that it was superior but did not catch on.
3661
richwicks
2021 Jul 25, 8:18pm
richwicks
2021 Jul 25, 8:18pm
HeadSet says
Never heard of it, but there were some attempts to make digital VCR tapes I know. Would have been the equivalent of DVD but recording on it required some serious hardware at the time (analog to MP2 conversion required a computer the size of a refrigerator to get real time compression), and the cost of producing a DVD is actually LOWER than the cost of making a VCR tape. CDs are also cheaper to make than tape cassettes, although they cost more back in the day.
richwicks saysThere is HONESTLY no advantage of analogue over digital.
Do not forget VHS HiFi. VHS HiFi is analog, but the equivalent of playing a tape deck at 18 feet per second (regular reel-to-reel is about 7.5 inches per second). Although the best analog by far, VHS HiFi was like Quadrasonic in that it was superior but did not catch on.
Never heard of it, but there were some attempts to make digital VCR tapes I know. Would have been the equivalent of DVD but recording on it required some serious hardware at the time (analog to MP2 conversion required a computer the size of a refrigerator to get real time compression), and the cost of producing a DVD is actually LOWER than the cost of making a VCR tape. CDs are also cheaper to make than tape cassettes, although they cost more back in the day.
3669
richwicks
2021 Jul 28, 7:21pm
richwicks
2021 Jul 28, 7:21pm
Patrick says
Where the hell was that? That's nuts.
I'd have recognized the danger before they did, but I would have also recognized there was nothing I could do.
https://twitter.com/Not_the_Bee/status/1419380016044023813
Where the hell was that? That's nuts.
I'd have recognized the danger before they did, but I would have also recognized there was nothing I could do.
3671
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 29, 8:47am
Tenpoundbass
2021 Jul 29, 8:47am
Finally a reason why "The Funny Picture thread" is loathed and despised so much with dislikes by the Wet Blanket Commie Brigade.
3684
komputodo
2021 Jul 30, 9:20pm
komputodo
2021 Jul 30, 9:20pm
HunterTits says
What is the reason for the little red ramps for in this situation?
That actually would not cause a problem.
What is the reason for the little red ramps for in this situation?
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