patrick.net

Ceffer says

I doubt anybody knows what the Ukrainians think at this point.

I doubt any of them are thinking "I'm willing to die just to up the body count to make Putin look bad".

Because if that's the ultimate outcome, if that's the only possible outcome, that's what they are dying for, and nothing else.

And a body count like that is only used on dumb Americans that claim to care about Ukrainians, but don't give a shit about Libyans, Iraqis, Afghanis, Somalians, Syrians, Somalians, Palestinians, etc. It's just for the sheeple and they don't matter anyhow.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

People like you get other people killed needlessly.

No. People like Putin get other people killed needlessly.

While people like you work on ideological cover for the murderers.

What ideological cover?

Putin stated his terms, for years before this, basically Ukraine can't join NATO - well NATO won't let them join anyhow, so what is the fucking problem? Why didn't Zelenskyy just agree to this?

mostly reader says

Right, comrade?

Communism is dead in Russia, and has been since December 26, 1991.

You don't need to resort to such antiquated stupid propaganda. The USSR is gone, and it's not coming back.

richwicks says

I doubt any of them are thinking "I'm willing to die just to up the body count to make Putin look bad".

Because if that's the ultimate outcome, if that's the only possible outcome

You know that Ukrainian insurgency against Russian Commies started in 1939 lasted up until 1962 or so, right? Who am I kidding, of course you don't.

As for "the only possible outcome", what were Americans thinking when British troops set the White House and the Capitol on fire in 1812? "Uh-oh, there is only ultimate outcome now, time to fold"? You don't know the outcome. Of course the enemy will try to persuade you that all is lost and resistance is futile.

https://youtu.be/XSrB2FN6Fnk?source=patrick.net

http://fighting-vehicles.com/t-80u-tank/russian-t-80u-tank-image-10-t-80uk/?source=patrick.net

Eric Holder says

Of course the enemy will try to persuade you that all is lost and resistance is futile.

That's exactly, EXACTLY what the enemy is now doing.

Eric Holder says

richwicks says

I doubt any of them are thinking "I'm willing to die just to up the body count to make Putin look bad".

Because if that's the ultimate outcome, if that's the only possible outcome

You know that Ukrainian insurgency against Russian Commies started in 1939 lasted up until 1962 or so, right? Who am I kidding, of course you don't.

Well, nope, but it doesn't matter - civil wars happen all the time, and the only country I'd be concerned with a civil war, is my country.

Leonid Brezhnev was born in Ukraine.

Eric Holder says

As for "the only possible outcome", what were Americans thinking when British troops set the White House and the Capitol on fire in 1812? "Uh-oh, there is only ultimate outcome now, time to fold"? You don't know the outcome. Of course the enemy will try to persuade you that all is lost and resistance is futile.

Russia can defeat Ukraine by dropping a nuclear bomb right this minute and Russia will do that before Russia is defeated. The best that will happen will be a stalemate, and still Russia will not allow Ukraine to join NATO not that NATO will allow Ukraine to join anyhow.

Just what is Ukraine fighting for? What's their goal? Unless they plan on advancing into Moscow, they're going to get the same deal they would have gotten in the first place - except no lives lost.

As far as I can tell, there was no need for the war in the first place, and it could have been easily avoided. Ukraine, is effectively fighting to have the RIGHT to join NATO, when NATO (they aren't stupid) have no intention of adding them in. How fucking stupid is that? It is only effective propaganda for the United States, nothing more. The more people that die, the better it is for the propaganda.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1506372075681943573?source=patrick.net

https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1506372075681943573?source=patrick.net

richwicks says

Just what is Ukraine fighting for? What's their goal?

Independence. Sovereignty. Territorial integrity. Living in their own country and choosing their own leaders and whom to be allied with. Duh!

Same things Americans fought for in the American Revolutionary War and in the War of 1812 against old imperial power who wanter her "historic lands" back.

Eric Holder says

Independence. Sovereignty. Territorial integrity. Living in their own country and choosing their own leaders and whom to be allied with. Duh!

Like Cuba in the early 1960s?

Eric Holder says

Same things Americans fought for in the American Revolutionary War and in the War of 1812 against old imperial power who wanter her "historic lands" back.

The strong do as they will, the weak suffer as they must - that's the real international environment.

With $32T in Debt, $5+/gas, skyrocketing inflation and possible stagflation, and near total dependence on imported goods from Pink Lawn Flamingoes to Nuts and Bolts to Silicon Wafers...

And thousands of military personnel about to be discharged over Vax Refusal, plus openly Crossdressing Perverts celebrated by the Military.

How do you intend to pay for Ukrainian Intervention?

We are in NO condition to embrace Idealism.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/03/tax-dollars-work-ukrainian-officials-keep-getting-caught-fleeing-country-suitcases-full-cash-euros/?source=patrick.net

AmericanKulak says

We are in NO condition to embrace Idealism.

We can't afford to provide Javelins, Stingers and maybe some intelligence?

Seems like alot of people here think there is only a binary choice of abandoning Ukraine or getting totally involved in WWIII.

I don't want US boots on the ground, NATO involvement let alone a No Fly Zone. Let the Ukrainians do their own fighting. But I am more than happy to have my tax dollars spent on weapons to bleed Putin and Russia's military dry. This could be our most successful (and cheapest) military expenditure in 30+ years!

Why do you think Biden Actor et alia are giving them mothballed Soviet weapons, LOL! They know that the Ukrainian army is surrounded and fucked, and that the weapons will never reach them in any meaningful manner. It's a silly token gesture. The weapons will be destroyed as soon as they cross the Polish border. Keep those Ukie Nazis fighting to the death on the basis of fake news hopium to keep the moribund criminal enterprises in Ukraine limping along for a few more plunder sorties, or for evasions and destructions of criminal records, or for bailout logistics for the rulers.

They can't send the cream of American armaments because they can't. Biden is a failed, faked executive with a cucked fake DOD potemkin apparatus.

Eric Holder says

richwicks says

Just what is Ukraine fighting for? What's their goal?

Independence. Sovereignty. Territorial integrity.

They've had that for over 20 years.

Even when the US overthrew Ukraine, they had it, if Zelenskyy just said "we will remain neutral and not join NATO".

If Zelenskyy just made an agreement to that, then Putin wouldn't have had an excuse to invade. That's Putin's ONLY excuse.

Eric Holder says

Same things Americans fought for in the American Revolutionary War and in the War of 1812 against old imperial power who wanter her "historic lands" back.

What bullshit!

Zelenskyy has his main opposition in jail, and has shut down opposition television stations. They're not a fucking democracy and they don't have sovereignty.

socal2 says

We can't afford to provide Javelins, Stingers and maybe some intelligence?

We can. After we fully fund the Wall and our own border security.

socal2 says

I don't want US boots on the ground, NATO involvement let alone a No Fly Zone. Let the Ukrainians do their own fighting. But I am more than happy to have my tax dollars spent on weapons to bleed Putin and Russia's military dry. This could be our most successful (and cheapest) military expenditure in 30+ years!

I don't disagree, but this a fantastic moment to discuss why we're protecting other people's borders while our own is porous as a sponge, or Kamala's Vagina.

https://www.hennessysview.com/p/if-youre-not-allowed-to-say-it-its?s=r&source=patrick.net

No wonder so many prominent US politicians and their families made millions there. Besides Hunter Biden’s millions funneled to his father to buy influence, Mitt Romney, Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, and Hillary Clinton have profited from Ukrainian corruption.

Those true stories of Ukrainian corruption have been swept down the memory hole. Anyone daring to point out that Ukraine has flaws is subject to internal exile, just like anyone who points out the dangers of mRNA vaccines or who questions the efficacy of masks.

https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/larry-c-johnson-the-ukrainian-army-has-been-defeated-whats-left-is-mop-up/?source=patrick.net

AmericanKulak says

I don't disagree, but this a fantastic moment to discuss why we're protecting other people's borders while our own is porous as a sponge, or Kamala's Vagina.

Absolutely. Not to mention a fantastic moment to discuss drilling for more oil in the US. Let's hammer these issues home and hang them around the necks of the Left in the midterms.

I just don't get all of the over the top hate on Zelensky and Ukraine by some folks.

Patrick says

https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/larry-c-johnson-the-ukrainian-army-has-been-defeated-whats-left-is-mop-up/?source=patrick.net

so thats why they rushed aid to Ukraine. because no accountability easy to siphon and steal billions while taxpayers think its going to Ukraine. money isn’t going to Ukraine, its making few people rich while they still can.

Crooks never miss a chance to steal.

This may be as good of a thread as any other to announce the new line approved for Rusbots.

The latest and greatest, as observed in other sources, is the following: "The Russians and the Ukrainians is the same people. This bloodbath is meaningless. If only Ukrainians threw out their entire leadership starting with Zelensky, then we could have a meaningful conversation!"

Ceffer says

Why do you think Biden Actor et alia are giving them mothballed Soviet weapons, LOL!

Such weapons could be used to fire on a NATO nation, and then to blame the attack on Russia to drag in NATO.

We'll see.

socal2 says

I just don't get all of the over the top hate on Zelensky and Ukraine by some folks.

I don't hate Zelensky, or Ukraine, or Putin, or Russia.

I am quite disappointed in the sudden lack of critical thinking by people who figured out the vaxx scam at least.

Taiwan and Japan have got to be wondering if the US will back up its commitments to them with the same fervor it promised to Ukraine when it gave up its nukes.

Any sane foreign government would not believe US assurances of military backing. If they acted in their own self-interest, they would get their own nuclear deterrent.

NATO membership is a good bluff, but it is only a bluff. The NATO countries are not going to war if one member is attacked.

As an example ... let's say Poland decides it can no longer house millions of additional refugees from Ukraine so it makes a deal with Ukraine to annex Ukraine as part of Poland for a while, thereby using the NATO shield to protect Ukraine. This should force Russia to flee as it could not possibly defeat NATO.

... or do you think the other NATO countries would kinda well you know welch on the agreement for fear of being nuked. --- as I say NATO is only a bluff

Misc says

Taiwan and Japan have got to be wondering if the US will back up its commitments to them with the same fervor it promised to Ukraine when it gave up its nukes.

You mean the United States the soul of honorable behavior and impeccable credibility with our thrashing, insane, psychopathic fools in governance through a stolen election?

Taiwan also has many of those DARPA biolabs it appears, and rumors have it that they have already hashed out an agreement in principle with the mainland for rapprochement.

No matter what bullshit the MSM gives, you don't need these labs for 'defense'. Bioweapons are weapons of terror that work in a generalized and crude manner on entire populations. They cannot be targeted in time and space to specific uniformed combatants representing countries at war. So if that is the case, who exactly are the intended targets?

The fact that these labs exist in so many different locations spread out in such large numbers such as Khaz, Ukraine, Taiwan etc. simply means they are intended to be a multi focal engine of genocide to be released from these many geo locations to kill large masses the populaces as the Globalists intend. This is the NWO Biden is raving about.

The Rockefeller eugenicists and Globalists have been hungering for this since they 'got away' with the Spanish Flu, which was neither Spanish nor was it a flu, it was a mass murder casualty accomplished with vaccines. When they lost their ability to extort with the 'suitcase nukes', the next engine of world extortion is these bioweapons.

Patrick says

socal2 says

I just don't get all of the over the top hate on Zelensky and Ukraine by some folks.

I don't hate Zelensky, or Ukraine, or Putin, or Russia.

I am quite disappointed in the sudden lack of critical thinking by people who figured out the vaxx scam at least.

exactly same here. I'm seeing us being lied to again by the usual crew that lies all the time. something doesn't add up, as usual. it is very odd that our government and media went on such a pivot. CNN/FOX lied for years, suddenly they tell truth?... yeah right come on guys!!! you know they are full of shit, and if they are telling you something it's because they want something out of you. there are no news anymore, all we get is some sort of marketing. they are manufacturing some sort of consent as usual.

I do wish more people thought with their heads instead of just mindlessly pick sides in some third world conflict that shouldn't matter to us.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

I do wish more people thought with their heads instead of just mindlessly pick sides in some third world conflict that shouldn't matter to us.

This.

Patrick says

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

I do wish more people thought with their heads instead of just mindlessly pick sides in some third world conflict that shouldn't matter to us.

This.

Mindlessly picking sides?

Just because the Democrats and our Garbage Media went bonkers with the Russian collusion thing and COVID trying to take down Trump, doesn't mean I am going to automatically ignore and deny over half a century of USSR/Russian crimes and actions.

Even if everything claimed about Zelensky and Ukraine is true, it is not even remotely reasonable to justify the tens of thousands of people Russia is getting killed over the last month.

My whole life - Leftists and our Garbage Media has been trying to whitewash the manifest crimes of the Communists. It wasn't but a few years ago Obama was mocking Romney for pointing out the obvious threats from Putin and Russia. Hillary was busy doing photo-ops with Lavrov with the famous reset button and basically handing over Georgia and Crimea to Russia without a peep.

Just because Leftists and our Media are total hypocrites, doesn't mean those of us on the Right have to lose all sense of reality.

If the Media and Corporate America start getting critical on China and Iran, will you automatically pick the opposite side?

socal2 says

Mindlessly picking sides?

Just because the Democrats and our Garbage Media went bonkers with the Russian collusion thing and COVID trying to take down Trump, doesn't mean I am going to automatically ignore and deny over half a century of USSR/Russian crimes and actions.

Even if everything claimed about Zelensky and Ukraine is true, it is not even remotely reasonable to justify the tens of thousands of people Russia is getting killed over the last month.

My whole life - Leftists and our Garbage Media has been trying to whitewash the manifest crimes of the Communists. It wasn't but a few years ago Obama was mocking Romney for pointing out the obvious threats from Putin and Russia. Hillary was busy doing photo-ops with Lavrov with the famous reset button and basically handing over Georgia and Crimea to Russia without a peep.

Just because Leftists and our Media are total hypocrites, doesn't mean those of us on the Right have to lose all sense of reality.
<...

Friend, nothing on television is reality. There is little bit of truth to everything sure, that makes it more believable, but what they show us isn't reality, it's manufactured reality. It's been that way for years, and you know that. We've been lied into many wars and scams. All I'm saying is take things with grain of salt. Because it is suspicious what they are saying, and suddenly grew concerns the way they did, it is suspicious how they pivot and instantly we all are told by entire media complex to get behind whatever bullshit thing they want us to. And it's never for our benefit, we already had 2 years of lockdowns "for our own good", we should have learned by now.

I don't give a shit about Russia or Ukraine, but seeing how our government is all out in propaganda mode similar to Iraq WMD days, I call it for what it is. Media is business of consent manufacturing, you and I are living through it now. "We were always at war with FillInTheBlank".

Sand bags for improvised fortifications.

Odessa is getting ready to give the liberators greeting that they deserve, Bon Jovi style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlWKrxLBsss&source=patrick.net

socal2 says

Even if everything claimed about Zelensky and Ukraine is true, it is not even remotely reasonable to justify the tens of thousands of people Russia is getting killed over the last month.

Where do you get the 10's of thousands? Just who is providing that number?

What I have to laugh about is that suddenly, people have found their humanity suddenly. They didn't care when the US bombed Iraq over a non existent weapons of mass destruction program, or when they returned Libya to civil war and left it with slavery markets, nor when they bombed Syria back to the stone age for Genie Energy. They don't care when Israel spends 70 years bombing the native inhabitants or just outright murders them to expand settlements, the war in Yemen doesn't matter no matter how many people are killed, it doesn't even matter when they were dropping bombs on Afghanistan when there's no mission objective at all for that war.

But when RUSSIA goes to a war, oh my - the HUMANITY!

People are unprincipled easily led sheep. They only care about something when they are TOLD to care about something - they don't actually care, they just go through the motions of it. They ape it having principles and morals. They mimic it, and it's the MSM and government pulling their strings.

The United States has aligned itself with al-Qaeda, with ISIS, with "moderate rebels", with Nazis, with communists - these are our Kurdish "allies" the PKK. They rename groups constantly, the Taliban (evil) magically aren't the Mujahideen (good!) anymore. It happens over night, and all the time. These are the same people that call arsonists and looters "mostly peaceful protesters", and peaceful protesters "insurrectionists" and people just believe it, and SINCERELY believe it.

If our masters are telling the truth this time about Ukraine, it's a first in a LONG long time.

These are the same people that protected Epstein and then tried and convicted (presumably) Ghislaine Maxwell, but we have no idea who her clients were, and they aren't going to be prosecuted. Our masters have zero ethics and they are the ones directing everybody's very superficial and changeable on a whim "ethics". Ed Buck had to murder two people before he was arrested, Harvey Weinstein had to rape over 2 dozen women. Hunter Biden is a drug addict and frequents prostitutes, has child porn on his computer - what happens? The guy that reported it is out of a job and has been doxxed. Julian Assange is going to die in prison because he exposed SOME criminality of our government.

It is a lot like 1984. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia, when the day before, it was at war with Eurasia. It changes practically overnight, and the population is induced to entirely forget just a few weeks ago, Al-Qaeda did 9/11, now they are our partners in Syria. I don't know how a typical person can live with the average level of cognitive dissonance they would have to have, unless they simply have abandoned their cognition.

And this:

socal2 says

Mindlessly picking sides?

I wouldn't say mindlessly, but I would say that the side you are picking, was picked for you. You didn't pick it.

MKUltra was a real thing, and I would argue it was pretty effective.

When you find yourself agreeing with the propaganda, take a step back.

richwicks says

What I have to laugh about is that suddenly, people have found their humanity suddenly. They didn't care when the US bombed Iraq over a non existent weapons of mass destruction program, or when they returned Libya to civil war and left it with slavery markets, nor when they bombed Syria back to the stone age for Genie Energy. They don't care when Israel spends 70 years bombing the native inhabitants or just outright murders them to expand settlements, the war in Yemen doesn't matter no matter how many people are killed, it doesn't even matter when they were dropping bombs on Afghanistan when there's no mission objective at all for that war.

But when RUSSIA goes to a war, oh my - the HUMANITY!

People are unprincipled easily led sheep.

Correct. It was not that long ago when one user known by handle "richwicks" was going on two-page rants about how wrong and criminal Iraq war was in every fuckin thread no matter the subject. Now he's all: "meh, so Russia kills Ukrainians on some bullshit pretext, big fucking deal, nothing to see there". A truly unpricipled easily led sheep, that one.

Eric Holder says

Correct. It was not that long ago when one user known by handle "richwicks" was going on two-page rants about how wrong and criminal Iraq war was in every fuckin thread no matter the subject.

That's right. You know what my problem with that war was? We don't know why it was fought and since then, it is now completely permissible for the United States to start a war, without even having a mission objective. It's been that way ever since.

Eric Holder says

Now he's all: "meh, so Russia kills Ukrainians on some bullshit pretext, big fucking deal, nothing to see there".

Do you understand the difference between the United States, the country I live in, going to war versus Russia, a country I DON'T live in going to war?

War damages the nation. The US has been in 7 wars since 2000. In what way have any of these wars helped this nation? Name any way it has helped this nation. You can't even name the countries the US has been at war with, and you don't give a shit. None of you care about the people killed in war, even when you're paying for it, to your detriment and my detriment and the entire nation's detriment. You're paying for this and so am I.

I don't care if Russia damages itself. The only thing I care about, is that the United States not get involved any more than they ALREADY have in Ukraine. Now if Russians are against the war, I sympathize with them, I sympathize with the Ukrainians being against the war as well. This war was totally unnecessary, all Russia (said they) wanted was for Ukraine to remain neutral and abide by the Minsk Accords, but the Minsky Accords - that's to pacify the Russian population - it's a fake humanitarian reason.

You understand the difference don't you? You understand that it's entirely reasonable to have different rules or MY nation than another nation, don't you?

Eric Holder says

A truly unpricipled easily led sheep, that one.

I don't think so. You root for whatever your government tells you to root for, even if it harms the nation. The US has predators in power. You know this. Let me demonstrate this:

Name everything that our government has done or changed since George H Bush, William Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden has done that YOU believe was beneficial for this nation? I can list pages of negative things that have been done under those administrations.

I don't think you know what a principle is. You just support what you're programmed to support. Demonstrate I'm wrong, and show me you are capable of thinking and you have principles. List all the great and good things that our Federal government has done in the last 35 years. I bet you can't list 5 of them, and if you're able to struggle enough to do that, I'll demonstrate how you misunderstand what was done and you're just promoting them because you're repeating the propaganda narrative.

> richwicks

Since you and morality don't mix well I'll leave the moral part of the equation aside for now. Let's just focus on the technical part. Are you saying that US should go back on the pledge that it made in Budapest memorandum?

Yes or No?

socal2 says

My whole life - Leftists and our Garbage Media has been trying to whitewash the manifest crimes of the Communists. It wasn't but a few years ago Obama was mocking Romney for pointing out the obvious threats from Putin and Russia. Hillary was busy doing photo-ops with Lavrov with the famous reset button and basically handing over Georgia and Crimea to Russia without a peep.

They're doing it now, except it's for the Megacorp Socialists.

Remember how much whinging you heard when Russia did the "Don't indoctrinate with Gay" law a few years ago from the Media? And the SJW priest-beating, altar-destroying Pussy Riot? And they got "art" grants from the US Government?

This bitch, again:

In a later announcement, the U.S. State Department issued an official message of concern over Friday’s verdict. Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said that “The United States is concerned about both the verdict and the disproportionate sentences handed down by a Moscow court in the case against the members of the band Pussy Riot and the negative impact on freedom of expression in Russia. We urge Russian authorities to review this case and ensure that the right to freedom of expression is upheld.”

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/la-xpm-2012-aug-17-la-et-ms-pussy-riot-new-single-state-department-20120817-story.html
Article is from 2011.

mostly reader says

> richwicks

Since you and morality don't mix well

I've just come to accept morality has nothing to do with it, because it doesn't. In evolutionary psychology, morality is derived from long term survival, or that's the hypothesis. Since people won't deal with the morality abstraction, I concentrate on long term self interest, but people just entrust their long term survival to people like Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, George W. Bush and other obvious garbage. They stubbornly think these people are acting (somehow, they can't define it) in their interests, when they obviously aren't. It's frustrating.

mostly reader says

Let's just focus on the technical part. Are you saying that US should go back on the pledge that it made in Budapest memorandum?

I don't know. Let me look up the Budapest memorandum...

https://web.archive.org/web/20140317182201/http://www.cfr.org/arms-control-disarmament-and-nonproliferation/budapest-memorandums-security-assurances-1994/p32484?source=patrick.net

The United States is in violation of 1) when they conspired to overthrow Yanukovych in 2014 in a coup under the guise of a revolution

I'll have to read the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty to give you a full answer, but the United States already violated the Budapest memorandum. They should have upheld it.

Port of Berdyansk. Russian war ship...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7g5ZVwDqLRg&source=patrick.net

https://mobile.twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1506900560167026690


https://mobile.twitter.com/ua_industrial/status/1506923447036882944

socal2 says

I am more than happy to have my tax dollars spent on weapons to bleed Putin and Russia's military dry

I'm not. Why don't you just donate to Ukraine's GoFundMe instead of volunteering everyone's money.

How about we spend some money to investigate the corruption that led to the POTUSes son getting paid to work on Ukrainian energy board and why we have bio labs in foreign countries?

socal2 says

I just don't get all of the over the top hate on Zelensky and Ukraine by some folks.

Some folks don't like being manipulated by propaganda.

Onvacation says

Some folks don't like being manipulated by propaganda.

Yeah - It is tough to know what to believe.

Maybe if they can make up their mind and stick to one narrative it would be easier?

Is Zelensky a secret Jewish Nazi or is he a globalist homo that likes to dance in high heels?

https://mobile.twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1506996489205297158?source=patrick.net