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4
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 12:17pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 12:17pm
Patrick says
@patrick
why?
This is against freedom of speech.
Persistence spaming personal insult is other matter...
Also threats and extreme vulgarity is unacceptable.
All the kings will be happy if personal insults are banned.
Eric Holder saysLooks like when one door for free speech opens (Twitter) another one closes (P.net).
Everyone knows the rule: no deliberately personal insults.
@patrick
why?
This is against freedom of speech.
Persistence spaming personal insult is other matter...
Also threats and extreme vulgarity is unacceptable.
All the kings will be happy if personal insults are banned.
5
WookieMan
2022 Apr 29, 12:55pm
WookieMan
2022 Apr 29, 12:55pm
FarmersWon says
I agree to some extent. The issue is that when one person feels they were really wronged in a thread, they do something stupid and bring the whole site down because of their actions. I've had the ability to moderate here and I tend to let it go. Doxxing and personal threats are the big ones I'd moderate. Insulting another user just makes the person insulting look like a dip shit (not picking sides on this, just stating how I feel about it). Make me laugh honestly.
I've been guilty of being a dick to users here, but I've backed off on that. If someone needs to be that petty there are other personal issues. No one online should get under your skin that much to be a dick. Pick a neutral site and have a fist fight. Not joking. Back your words up. Forum/Twitter/FB/etc. trolls are just pussies generally that got their asses kicked on the playground and think they're making up for past transgressions though typing.
I'd collaborate with Patrick, but I've thought about writing a book on this. The dynamics of internet forums and social media. Not the best writer myself, but I think with the right editor it would be really intriguing on the psychology side of things. Y'all fucked up including me ;) and I think we all know this to an extent. My old man would troll forums/news sites in the panhandle of FL.
why?
This is against freedom of speech.
I agree to some extent. The issue is that when one person feels they were really wronged in a thread, they do something stupid and bring the whole site down because of their actions. I've had the ability to moderate here and I tend to let it go. Doxxing and personal threats are the big ones I'd moderate. Insulting another user just makes the person insulting look like a dip shit (not picking sides on this, just stating how I feel about it). Make me laugh honestly.
I've been guilty of being a dick to users here, but I've backed off on that. If someone needs to be that petty there are other personal issues. No one online should get under your skin that much to be a dick. Pick a neutral site and have a fist fight. Not joking. Back your words up. Forum/Twitter/FB/etc. trolls are just pussies generally that got their asses kicked on the playground and think they're making up for past transgressions though typing.
I'd collaborate with Patrick, but I've thought about writing a book on this. The dynamics of internet forums and social media. Not the best writer myself, but I think with the right editor it would be really intriguing on the psychology side of things. Y'all fucked up including me ;) and I think we all know this to an extent. My old man would troll forums/news sites in the panhandle of FL.
6
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:01pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:01pm
WookieMan says
The discussion should be self contained to this forum. I have not much resemblance to forum behavior in real life full of constraints and conflicts.
Life is much more than discussing matters.
But snowflake behavior is not good for anyone... So spamming, extreme vulguraity and doxing is not good, But beyond that who cares.
You can be insinuated and outraged by every little thing like left wing or ignore(as long as not fighting spam).
FarmersWon sayswhy?
This is against freedom of speech.
I agree to some extent. The issue is that when one person feels they were really wronged in a thread, they do something stupid and bring the whole site down because of their actions. I've had the ability to moderate here and I tend to let it go. Doxxing and personal threats are the big ones I'd moderate. Insulting another user just makes the person insulting look like a dip shit (not picking sides on this, just stating how I feel about it). Make me laugh honestly.
I've been guilty of being a dick to users here, but I've backed off on that. If someone needs to be that petty there are other personal issues. No one online should get under your skin that much to be a dick. Pick a neutral site and have a fist fight. Not joking. Back your words up. Forum/Twitter/FB/etc. trolls are just pussies generally that got their asses ki...
The discussion should be self contained to this forum. I have not much resemblance to forum behavior in real life full of constraints and conflicts.
Life is much more than discussing matters.
But snowflake behavior is not good for anyone... So spamming, extreme vulguraity and doxing is not good, But beyond that who cares.
You can be insinuated and outraged by every little thing like left wing or ignore(as long as not fighting spam).
7
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 1:02pm
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 1:02pm
WookieMan says
Honestly, this is how I feel about it as well.
Insulting another user just makes the person insulting look like a dip shit
Honestly, this is how I feel about it as well.
8
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:02pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:02pm
mostly reader says
Yes, it was a bug. Fixed now.
Yet I'm posting this, hence the title (probably a bug)
Yes, it was a bug. Fixed now.
9
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:06pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:06pm
FarmersWon says
mostly reader was indeed persistently posting personal insults which were extremely vulgar.
FarmersWon says
You can insult public figures who are not on this site. The rule is about other users of the site.
I'm just asking for people to stay on a debatable issue and not get hung up about the other person personally. No one's mind was ever changed by direct vulgar insults.
why?
This is against freedom of speech.
Persistence spaming personal insult is other matter...
Also threats and extreme vulgarity is unacceptable.
mostly reader was indeed persistently posting personal insults which were extremely vulgar.
FarmersWon says
All the kings will be happy if personal insults are banned.
You can insult public figures who are not on this site. The rule is about other users of the site.
I'm just asking for people to stay on a debatable issue and not get hung up about the other person personally. No one's mind was ever changed by direct vulgar insults.
10
GreaterNYCDude
2022 Apr 29, 1:07pm
FarmersWon says
I respectfully disagree. Vulgarity is under the free speech umbrella. I may not like how one chooses to express themselves, but I defend their right to say it.
Sticks and stones and all that...
Personal threats is a grey area... in a (mostly) anonymous forum the risk of a threat being realized are thankfully low.
Patrick's site, Patrick's rules. This isn't a democracy. He can ban anyone for any reason. It's his namesake, not your or mine.
That said, this place allows for a range of opinions which is why I lurk so much.
extreme vulgarity is unacceptable.
I respectfully disagree. Vulgarity is under the free speech umbrella. I may not like how one chooses to express themselves, but I defend their right to say it.
Sticks and stones and all that...
Personal threats is a grey area... in a (mostly) anonymous forum the risk of a threat being realized are thankfully low.
Patrick's site, Patrick's rules. This isn't a democracy. He can ban anyone for any reason. It's his namesake, not your or mine.
That said, this place allows for a range of opinions which is why I lurk so much.
11
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:11pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:11pm
Patrick says
I guess everyone is public figure on this forum as He/She post.
The insults are directed at your profile not you. Doxing is enemy of free speech. anonymity allows you to be extreme which is not possible in real life.
It is proven fact the being extreme is highly effective, But many people don't want all the negatives that come with it.. so anonymous forums are great to bring out entrenched interests or habits and help correct asymmetries in power structure the elites have.
You can insult public figures who are not on this site. The rule is about other users of the site.
I'm just asking for people to stay on a debatable issue and not get hung up about the other person personally. No one's mind was ever changed by direct vulgar insults.
I guess everyone is public figure on this forum as He/She post.
The insults are directed at your profile not you. Doxing is enemy of free speech. anonymity allows you to be extreme which is not possible in real life.
It is proven fact the being extreme is highly effective, But many people don't want all the negatives that come with it.. so anonymous forums are great to bring out entrenched interests or habits and help correct asymmetries in power structure the elites have.
12
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:15pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:15pm
GreaterNYCDude says
Clearly I don't mind vulgarity in general. It's all over this site. But I do mind personal insults of the other users rather debating them.
There is an innate human tendency to vilify those we disagree with. That's the wrong way to argue, because it only hardens positions and makes people deaf to your legitimate arguments.
When you feel your blood pressure rising, the right thing to do is to take a moment, breathe, and either respond to the argument, or just put the person on ignore.
The wrong thing to do is to accuse the person of rimming Putin over and over. Might be amusing and momentarily satisfying, but it's poison for the soul.
Vulgarity is under the free speech umbrella.
Clearly I don't mind vulgarity in general. It's all over this site. But I do mind personal insults of the other users rather debating them.
There is an innate human tendency to vilify those we disagree with. That's the wrong way to argue, because it only hardens positions and makes people deaf to your legitimate arguments.
When you feel your blood pressure rising, the right thing to do is to take a moment, breathe, and either respond to the argument, or just put the person on ignore.
The wrong thing to do is to accuse the person of rimming Putin over and over. Might be amusing and momentarily satisfying, but it's poison for the soul.
13
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:15pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:15pm
GreaterNYCDude says
Extreme vulgarity is not free speech, It is just indication that you have nothing to say.. It is just precursor to violence.
It cheapens forum and @patrick should protect his forum against it and he is reasonable not snowflake.
I respectfully disagree. Vulgarity is under the free speech umbrella. I may not like how one chooses to express themselves, but I defend their right to say it.
Sticks and stones and all that...
Personal threats is a grey area... in a (mostly) anonymous forum the risk of a threat being realized are thankfully low.
Patrick's site, Patrick's rules. This isn't a democracy. He can ban anyone for any reason. It's his namesake, not your or mine.
That said, this place allows for a range of opinions which is why I lurk so much.
Extreme vulgarity is not free speech, It is just indication that you have nothing to say.. It is just precursor to violence.
It cheapens forum and @patrick should protect his forum against it and he is reasonable not snowflake.
14
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:17pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:17pm
Patrick says
vilification of tyrants and their lackeys in needed every second of the day.
In past vilifying achieved great success as humans are most dangerous when they see tyrant did wrong to them and willing to get rid of him at all costs.
This differentiates humans from animals as they don't come back and take revenge for wrong doing.
There is an innate human tendency to vilify those we disagree with. That's the wrong way to argue, because it only hardens positions and makes people deaf to your legitimate arguments.
vilification of tyrants and their lackeys in needed every second of the day.
In past vilifying achieved great success as humans are most dangerous when they see tyrant did wrong to them and willing to get rid of him at all costs.
This differentiates humans from animals as they don't come back and take revenge for wrong doing.
15
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:20pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:20pm
FarmersWon says
I agree.
I asked a friend at Facebook how Facebook handles such things, and he said they don't have to, because users simply unfriend anyone who deliberately insults them.
The problem with an anonymous forum is that no one feels worried about deliberately insulting people they never meet. So I think this rule against deliberate personal insults of other users is needed to keep the discussion from degenerating into crap that no one wants to read and which does nothing at all to help resolve or clarify issues.
Note that I don't care about people being offended if they were not personally attacked. The snowflake is someone who feels offended when no one was particularly trying to offend them.
anonymous forums are great to bring out entrenched interests or habits and help correct asymmetries in power structure the elites have
I agree.
I asked a friend at Facebook how Facebook handles such things, and he said they don't have to, because users simply unfriend anyone who deliberately insults them.
The problem with an anonymous forum is that no one feels worried about deliberately insulting people they never meet. So I think this rule against deliberate personal insults of other users is needed to keep the discussion from degenerating into crap that no one wants to read and which does nothing at all to help resolve or clarify issues.
Note that I don't care about people being offended if they were not personally attacked. The snowflake is someone who feels offended when no one was particularly trying to offend them.
16
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 1:21pm
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 1:21pm
FarmersWon says
Sure, but calling Trump a senile, racist, fascist really didn't help much when an actually senile, racist, fascist was placed into the executive office by the CIA. Now they have a new problem, the legitimacy of the US government is at risk. Even the dullest people are starting to wonder if the ballot is legitimate.
vilification of tyrants and their lackeys in needed every second of the day.
Sure, but calling Trump a senile, racist, fascist really didn't help much when an actually senile, racist, fascist was placed into the executive office by the CIA. Now they have a new problem, the legitimacy of the US government is at risk. Even the dullest people are starting to wonder if the ballot is legitimate.
17
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:21pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:21pm
Patrick says
Spam is the biggest enemy as it makes impossible to ignore.
The problem with an anonymous forum is that no one feels worried about deliberately insulting people they never meet. So I think this rule against deliberate personal insults of other users is needed to keep the discussion from degenerating into crap that no one wants to read and which does nothing at all to help resolve or clarify issues.
Spam is the biggest enemy as it makes impossible to ignore.
18
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:25pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:25pm
richwicks says
Politicians are competing for office and this is one of the tools & I believe it is good one.
I guess we were unhappy before Trump that all the politicians are too much cordial with each other and joined to hip against public good.
Vilification helped expose so many things... If You are telling me Trump didn't vilify his opponents.. I have to vilify you a bit :)
Sure, but calling Trump a senile, racist, fascist really didn't help much when an actually senile, racist, fascist was placed into the executive office by the CIA. Now they have a new problem, the legitimacy of the US government is at risk. Even the dullest people are starting to wonder if the ballot is legitimate.
Politicians are competing for office and this is one of the tools & I believe it is good one.
I guess we were unhappy before Trump that all the politicians are too much cordial with each other and joined to hip against public good.
Vilification helped expose so many things... If You are telling me Trump didn't vilify his opponents.. I have to vilify you a bit :)
19
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:26pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:26pm
I've had this same problem for about 15 years now, and I think the solution of not allowing deliberate personal insults has been pretty good.
I also don't like it when people just insult the site itself. If you don't like the site, you don't have to use it.
The real evil of the left is that they will not even allow you to express your opinion at all if they disagree.
I also don't like it when people just insult the site itself. If you don't like the site, you don't have to use it.
The real evil of the left is that they will not even allow you to express your opinion at all if they disagree.
20
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 1:34pm
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 1:34pm
Patrick says
I have a way to handle this in a better way if you like. My cousin is a patent attorney, but won't do anything unless I actually implement it, or show that it works. I'll share the idea with you sometime. My method is using cryptographic signatures to avoid tampering and allowing you to remove it from a central server. But it can be implemented on a central server with just a database.
Patrick says
This was a problem on the early Internet. I remember when USEnet forums would degenerate into just two people obsessively replying to one another to insult them. Maybe somebody DOES have a stupid opinion, but for God's sakes, explain it to everybody else and to them. When you have the wrong idea, calling them stupid doesn't allow them to figure out they do.
I asked a friend at Facebook how Facebook handles such things, and he said they don't have to, because users simply unfriend anyone who deliberately insults them.
I have a way to handle this in a better way if you like. My cousin is a patent attorney, but won't do anything unless I actually implement it, or show that it works. I'll share the idea with you sometime. My method is using cryptographic signatures to avoid tampering and allowing you to remove it from a central server. But it can be implemented on a central server with just a database.
Patrick says
I think this rule against deliberate personal insults of other users is needed to keep the discussion from degenerating into crap that no one wants to read
This was a problem on the early Internet. I remember when USEnet forums would degenerate into just two people obsessively replying to one another to insult them. Maybe somebody DOES have a stupid opinion, but for God's sakes, explain it to everybody else and to them. When you have the wrong idea, calling them stupid doesn't allow them to figure out they do.
21
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:40pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:40pm
richwicks says
You feel someone is stupid, But you shouldn't say so.
What kind of free speech is that?
When you have the wrong idea, calling them stupid doesn't allow them to figure out they do.
You feel someone is stupid, But you shouldn't say so.
What kind of free speech is that?
22
Tenpoundbass
2022 Apr 29, 1:41pm
Tenpoundbass
2022 Apr 29, 1:41pm
Don't make problems, that sounds like a great rule.
That's missing in todays society, I remember the Older males in every community back in the day. They were tasked with taking care of the wise asses and trouble makers.
"Harry call Jimmy, we've got some trouble makers!" When punks would come to a community causing mayhem and trouble.
The Boomers never wanted to get involved in other people's business as long as they aren't out front throwing rocks through my window. Gen Xers my generation, just always assumed Gramps or Pops was on it. By time we realized those old guys weren't just kooks, assholes and trouble makers became a protected species protected under free speech, and tort law. They have the right to harass the shit out of people and stir up trouble, but you have no right to stop them. That's what happens when you take free speech too literal. Malintent speech trumps all else.
The BLM nor the ANTIFA would exist today if the Greatest Generation were still around. They knew how to deal with Provocateur, Agitators and Dunk Tank clowns trying to sew distention and derision.
Doxing people, threatening people, getting personal, stalking, and harassing people is not free speech. Free Speech is telling those assholes to go somewhere else to make trouble.
That's missing in todays society, I remember the Older males in every community back in the day. They were tasked with taking care of the wise asses and trouble makers.
"Harry call Jimmy, we've got some trouble makers!" When punks would come to a community causing mayhem and trouble.
The Boomers never wanted to get involved in other people's business as long as they aren't out front throwing rocks through my window. Gen Xers my generation, just always assumed Gramps or Pops was on it. By time we realized those old guys weren't just kooks, assholes and trouble makers became a protected species protected under free speech, and tort law. They have the right to harass the shit out of people and stir up trouble, but you have no right to stop them. That's what happens when you take free speech too literal. Malintent speech trumps all else.
The BLM nor the ANTIFA would exist today if the Greatest Generation were still around. They knew how to deal with Provocateur, Agitators and Dunk Tank clowns trying to sew distention and derision.
Doxing people, threatening people, getting personal, stalking, and harassing people is not free speech. Free Speech is telling those assholes to go somewhere else to make trouble.
23
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:41pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:41pm
richwicks says
Right. I don't mind if someone says that an argument is stupid. But if you say the person is stupid, you're no longer talking about the argument.
These are skills we should all have learned as children.
The best way to argue (can't remember where I learned these rules):
1. State your opponent's argument in a way they absolutely agree with.
2. Find some other points on which you agree with your opponent.
3. Thank your opponent for something you have learned from them, if possible.
4. Only then attack their argument.
Maybe somebody DOES have a stupid opinion, but for God's sakes, explain it to everybody else and to them.
Right. I don't mind if someone says that an argument is stupid. But if you say the person is stupid, you're no longer talking about the argument.
These are skills we should all have learned as children.
The best way to argue (can't remember where I learned these rules):
1. State your opponent's argument in a way they absolutely agree with.
2. Find some other points on which you agree with your opponent.
3. Thank your opponent for something you have learned from them, if possible.
4. Only then attack their argument.
24
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:46pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:46pm
Patrick says
How is that possible?
As a human being we are inclined to like or dislike other person...self preservation tool.
Society always tag people as sociopaths or groups as dangerous based on probability based on past actions.
Right. I don't mind if someone says that an argument is stupid. But then you say the person is stupid, you're no longer talking about the argument.
How is that possible?
As a human being we are inclined to like or dislike other person...self preservation tool.
Society always tag people as sociopaths or groups as dangerous based on probability based on past actions.
25
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 1:48pm
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 1:48pm
Patrick says
Well, I disagree a little with that. You have to explain why the argument is wrong. The idea that freedom of speech is bad is a "stupid idea". It's a bad idea because we've had freedom of speech for 200 years and it's worked pretty well. Incorrect claims are corrected in time, truth doesn't need to be protected it can be demonstrated to be true, and false claims can be demonstrated to be false. The reason there's free speech is to protect the truth, not lies. Moderated speech is to protect lies.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote. That's a good way to approach a discussion.
Right. I don't mind if someone says that an argument is stupid. But then you say the person is stupid, you're no longer talking about the argument.
Well, I disagree a little with that. You have to explain why the argument is wrong. The idea that freedom of speech is bad is a "stupid idea". It's a bad idea because we've had freedom of speech for 200 years and it's worked pretty well. Incorrect claims are corrected in time, truth doesn't need to be protected it can be demonstrated to be true, and false claims can be demonstrated to be false. The reason there's free speech is to protect the truth, not lies. Moderated speech is to protect lies.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote. That's a good way to approach a discussion.
26
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:50pm
FarmersWon
2022 Apr 29, 1:50pm
richwicks says
Somebody's terrorist is somebody else hero. Facts are manipulated all the time.
Without debate, How do we know what the real truth is.
Aren't all of us were fact checking the liberal fact checkers during election?
The reason there's free speech is to protect the truth, not lies. Moderated speech is to protect lies.
Somebody's terrorist is somebody else hero. Facts are manipulated all the time.
Without debate, How do we know what the real truth is.
Aren't all of us were fact checking the liberal fact checkers during election?
27
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:56pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 1:56pm
FarmersWon says
I know that if you hate the argument, you usually hate the person.
But in this context, an anonymous forum, you will certainly go backwards by simply insulting them.
You might go forwards by sticking to the argument. Maybe you can even get them to agree eventually and then you're likely to have a new friend rather than a new enemy.
Patrick saysRight. I don't mind if someone says that an argument is stupid. But then you say the person is stupid, you're no longer talking about the argument.
How is that possible?
I know that if you hate the argument, you usually hate the person.
But in this context, an anonymous forum, you will certainly go backwards by simply insulting them.
You might go forwards by sticking to the argument. Maybe you can even get them to agree eventually and then you're likely to have a new friend rather than a new enemy.
28
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 2:01pm
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 2:01pm
FarmersWon says
Sure, right up to the point we all realized "fact checkers" are nothing but propagandists, and we were censored for calling them out on it.
Here's Hunter Biden's laptop being shown to be real. What happened? I would expect the intelligence agencies to have lost a GREAT deal of their credibility, I would expect Facebook, Twitter, and Google to have lost a ton of credibility, and our "news" media to have lost a lot of credibility.
And they probably did, but if we point that out, THAT gets censored.
I don't believe these institutions are as powerful or wealthy as they seem to be. I mean, CNN has less than a million viewers at any given moment during the day. How do they stay in business? The have hosts that get paid $10,000,000 a year. ONE host.
Aren't all of us were fact checking the liberal fact checkers during election?
Sure, right up to the point we all realized "fact checkers" are nothing but propagandists, and we were censored for calling them out on it.
Here's Hunter Biden's laptop being shown to be real. What happened? I would expect the intelligence agencies to have lost a GREAT deal of their credibility, I would expect Facebook, Twitter, and Google to have lost a ton of credibility, and our "news" media to have lost a lot of credibility.
And they probably did, but if we point that out, THAT gets censored.
I don't believe these institutions are as powerful or wealthy as they seem to be. I mean, CNN has less than a million viewers at any given moment during the day. How do they stay in business? The have hosts that get paid $10,000,000 a year. ONE host.
29
WookieMan
2022 Apr 29, 2:11pm
WookieMan
2022 Apr 29, 2:11pm
Patrick says
Lots of hopium there... lol. Rarely does it work that way. It can. Bitcoin and I went at it hard in the crypto threads. We've come to agreement on other things though. It's possible, but rare on a forum. Edibles help ;)
Once it goes south, I've generally found it doesn't get better. It's like a couple or spouse that say they want to separate and then try to work it out. 90% of the time it's going to fail. Might as well just pull the bandaid off.
Maybe you can even get them to agree eventually and then you're likely to have a new friend rather than a new enemy.
Lots of hopium there... lol. Rarely does it work that way. It can. Bitcoin and I went at it hard in the crypto threads. We've come to agreement on other things though. It's possible, but rare on a forum. Edibles help ;)
Once it goes south, I've generally found it doesn't get better. It's like a couple or spouse that say they want to separate and then try to work it out. 90% of the time it's going to fail. Might as well just pull the bandaid off.
30
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 2:25pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 2:25pm
WookieMan says
True, and I believe that is because it's not really about the stated argument then. It's about something *unspoken*, probably something too embarrassing to be spoken. Or maybe something unconscious, so that the person couldn't say it even if they wanted to.
Some people have a knack for figuring those things out and shifting the argument so that the other person's unspoken objection doesn't apply.
This is totally true about house-buying in my experience. Someone who paid way too much for a house may be embarrassed about it and so feel the need to defend the purchase even though they know it was misguided. The alternative is the humiliation of feeling stupid, and pretty much no one will allow that feeling to be exposed in a public argument.
Or someone who voted for Biden just because they were so insanely full of hate for Trump. It must be pretty embarrassing at this point.
Once it goes south, I've generally found it doesn't get better.
True, and I believe that is because it's not really about the stated argument then. It's about something *unspoken*, probably something too embarrassing to be spoken. Or maybe something unconscious, so that the person couldn't say it even if they wanted to.
Some people have a knack for figuring those things out and shifting the argument so that the other person's unspoken objection doesn't apply.
This is totally true about house-buying in my experience. Someone who paid way too much for a house may be embarrassed about it and so feel the need to defend the purchase even though they know it was misguided. The alternative is the humiliation of feeling stupid, and pretty much no one will allow that feeling to be exposed in a public argument.
Or someone who voted for Biden just because they were so insanely full of hate for Trump. It must be pretty embarrassing at this point.
31
AmericanKulak
2022 Apr 29, 3:47pm
AmericanKulak
2022 Apr 29, 3:47pm
This board was a pure shit shack because of a handful of egotistical assholes who, when Trump won against all their predictions, could do nothing but sling insults as prediction after prediction of his badness not only failed to come true, but the opposite of the predictions (ie Nuclear War with North Korea, Unable to handle ISIS, Bad Economy, etc.)
The funny thing is that Biden is failing worse than they ever predicted Trump would.
The funny thing is that Biden is failing worse than they ever predicted Trump would.
32
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 3:50pm
Patrick
2022 Apr 29, 3:50pm
But can they even see the reality of Biden's utter disaster of a presidency, or is it too embarrassing to admit even to themselves?
33
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 3:51pm
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 3:51pm
I was one of those people that didn't think Trump could possibly win, but I didn't think he would be worse than Clinton.
Biden is a LITTLE worse than what I expected. Basically, I expected him to completely ignore problems within the country, to restart the wars, and to make empty promises. I didn't expect him to further exacerbate the situation or to go into this covid bullshit even more.
Biden is a LITTLE worse than what I expected. Basically, I expected him to completely ignore problems within the country, to restart the wars, and to make empty promises. I didn't expect him to further exacerbate the situation or to go into this covid bullshit even more.
34
stereotomy
2022 Apr 29, 4:48pm
stereotomy
2022 Apr 29, 4:48pm
Following up on posts #29-30.
In my experience, especially within the context of a relationship (usually M-F but not too infrequently longstanding friends), proxy arguments are always the root cause of knock-down drag-out slugfests. I don't even know if they can be avoided, since they are usually sustained by the losing party from a former direct argument. I.e., the loser can't win going head to head, but instead uses some bullshit non-rational excuse to lay in to the other person.
When this happens, either laugh/agree-and-amplify, or walk away. It's a cheap shot and not worth any man's time.
In my experience, especially within the context of a relationship (usually M-F but not too infrequently longstanding friends), proxy arguments are always the root cause of knock-down drag-out slugfests. I don't even know if they can be avoided, since they are usually sustained by the losing party from a former direct argument. I.e., the loser can't win going head to head, but instead uses some bullshit non-rational excuse to lay in to the other person.
When this happens, either laugh/agree-and-amplify, or walk away. It's a cheap shot and not worth any man's time.
35
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 7:27pm
richwicks
2022 Apr 29, 7:27pm
mostly reader says
$ openssl rsautl -encrypt -inkey mostly-reader-pub.pem -pubin -in message-to-mostly-reader.txt | openssl base64
RSA operation error
139902506512832:error:0406D06E:rsa routines:RSA_padding_add_PKCS1_type_2:data too large for key size:../crypto/rsa/rsa_pk1.c:125:
----------------------
GPG would have worked, it encrypts a symmetrical key, then encrypts the message with that, and sends symmetrical key encrypted with the public key, and the message encrypted with the symmetrical key. Not perfect but it's PRETTY good encryption, not PERFECT encryption.
So, in the clear:
----------------------
OK, I'll play with this.
You need to give me credible information for which I can access. For all I know you're in Ukraine or are affiliated with it in some way. Frankly, I tend to ignore you, because you are incivil and getting you to explain your position is both painful and fruitless.
Just tone down the insults to make Patrick happy. It really is pointless to insult me, I don't lie up awake at night thinking "I should have said" - I just ignore you when you do this. You can't get under my skin.
Explain the situation as you understand it, and I will explain the situation as I understand it. War is a ammoral endeavor. There are no good sides.
Zelenskyy could have prevented it by simply having a discussion and coming to agreement with Russia, I don't think that he cares about the humanitarian cost. He's just another psychopath, just like 99% of US politicians. I hope he's executed along with Ihor Kolomoyskyi. This war could have been trivially avoided. Putin has been quite clear about Russia's security demands.
Urkaine isn't corrupt because Ukraine is corrupt either, I don't think. I think it's corrupt because of US involvement.
original link
Is she correct? No idea, but I will find out in time.
The war will hurt Russia, perhaps Europe if they are stupid enough to get involved, and will leave China and the United States standing. The US purposely provoked this war, and they have exactly what they wanted. War.
See you in around 10 days. Don't be incensed by me because I am numb to war. The UN claims over 1/4 million of Yemeni children have died in that stupid fucking war. And why does the US support THAT war? NoBoDy KnOwS... Tired of these fuckers dragging me into bullshit then asking me to foot the bill.
You then may post the resulting encrypted message right here, for me to decrypt/read.
$ openssl rsautl -encrypt -inkey mostly-reader-pub.pem -pubin -in message-to-mostly-reader.txt | openssl base64
RSA operation error
139902506512832:error:0406D06E:rsa routines:RSA_padding_add_PKCS1_type_2:data too large for key size:../crypto/rsa/rsa_pk1.c:125:
----------------------
GPG would have worked, it encrypts a symmetrical key, then encrypts the message with that, and sends symmetrical key encrypted with the public key, and the message encrypted with the symmetrical key. Not perfect but it's PRETTY good encryption, not PERFECT encryption.
So, in the clear:
----------------------
OK, I'll play with this.
You need to give me credible information for which I can access. For all I know you're in Ukraine or are affiliated with it in some way. Frankly, I tend to ignore you, because you are incivil and getting you to explain your position is both painful and fruitless.
Just tone down the insults to make Patrick happy. It really is pointless to insult me, I don't lie up awake at night thinking "I should have said" - I just ignore you when you do this. You can't get under my skin.
Explain the situation as you understand it, and I will explain the situation as I understand it. War is a ammoral endeavor. There are no good sides.
Zelenskyy could have prevented it by simply having a discussion and coming to agreement with Russia, I don't think that he cares about the humanitarian cost. He's just another psychopath, just like 99% of US politicians. I hope he's executed along with Ihor Kolomoyskyi. This war could have been trivially avoided. Putin has been quite clear about Russia's security demands.
Urkaine isn't corrupt because Ukraine is corrupt either, I don't think. I think it's corrupt because of US involvement.
original link
Is she correct? No idea, but I will find out in time.
The war will hurt Russia, perhaps Europe if they are stupid enough to get involved, and will leave China and the United States standing. The US purposely provoked this war, and they have exactly what they wanted. War.
See you in around 10 days. Don't be incensed by me because I am numb to war. The UN claims over 1/4 million of Yemeni children have died in that stupid fucking war. And why does the US support THAT war? NoBoDy KnOwS... Tired of these fuckers dragging me into bullshit then asking me to foot the bill.
To be clear: I don't plan to exploit this bug. Let's call it "honor system ban".
If anyone decides to p-2-p to me, here's my public key:
-----BEGIN PUBLIC KEY-----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-----END PUBLIC KEY-----
You can encrypt your message by doing something like this:
> openssl rsautl -encrypt -inkey mostly-reader-pub.pem -pubin -in message-to-mostly-reader.txt | openssl base64
- assuming that you save your message to me in "message-to-mostly-reader.txt" and my public key in "mostly-reader-pub.pem" (of course you should know better than put it in ~/.ssh)
You then may post the resulting encrypted message right here, for me to decrypt/read.
Good luck in your future endeavors.