patrick.net

Eric Holder says

Here, right from the horse's mouth:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/jun/09/russia-ukraine-war-latest-zelenskiy-says-sievierodonetsk-seeing-most-difficult-fighting-so-far-in-war-live?CMP=GTUS_email

No offense, but because Western media has taken to lying their fucking asses off for the last 20 years - I'd like to see an ORIGINAL source from Putin's speech. If that can't be found, it's just more bullshit from our "news" agencies. Don't know why people are so eager to trust these compulsive lying propagandists and just assume they are telling the truth THIS time, when they always lie when there's a war on. Ghost of Kyiv, Snake Island, Qaddafi is about to cause a humanitarian crisis, Assad is gassing his own people, Hussein has a secret weapons of mass destruction program..

Can't figure out why anybody at this point thinks they have any credibility when they have shown time and time again their shamelessness in lying. And why do "journalists" not link to original sources? Not enough room on the fucking INTERNET?

At this point, it's extreme gullibility to repeat anything from "mainstream news". You might as well be quoting from Pravda and Izvestia from 1985 to quote Ronald Reagan.

Eric Holder says

Almost feeling sorry for the believers in loony shit like "plans for imminent attack", "NATO weapons", "Nazis", "bird with vials controlled by satellite" and various time-travel shit.

Gee, if Zelenskyy just agreed not to join NATO and ended the bombing of the Donbass, Russia would have been deprived of any excuse. If he just did that (I mean, people say that Germany and France wouldn't let Ukraine join anyhow, and the [stupid] propaganda is that Donbass wasn't ever being attacked anyhow) then Russia wouldn't have any justification whatsoever.

I wonder why Zelenskyy didn't do that?

Zelenskyy wanted war. He's just a puppet of the United States, and war is profitable for our criminal class. He doesn't give a shit about Ukraine.

For those who think that media misrepresent what Putler the great said, here is a clip from his speech:



If confirms land grab (they are just collecting what is theirs) and that he thinks he is the new Peter the Great. No NATO mentioned. Those who think that an agreement about no NATO expansion or talks would help should listen to what he says here.

Bd6r says

For those who think that media misrepresent what Putler the great said, here is a clip from his speech:

I don't speak Russian.

Provide a link.

richwicks says

I don't speak Russian.

Provide a link.

Here ya go: https://t.me/smotri_media/16440
Enjoy - and this is a Russian source.

But somehow I suspect that FACTS will not change your thinking about this.

P.S. Interestingly, we can't find this on google, but on yandex it is search result #1.

Bd6r says

richwicks says

I don't speak Russian.

Provide a link.

Here ya go: https://t.me/smotri_media/16440

Need transcript. Will use computer voice to verify what is being said is the same.

Bd6r says

Enjoy - and this is a Russian source.

Yeah. that's not a problem.

Transcript? Transcript in RUSSIAN though, I don't want a translation.

Bd6r says

But somehow I suspect that FACTS will not change your thinking about this.

What I find funny is that all the people that, supposedly, speak Russian here are rah rah pro Ukrainian. That's so weird.

richwicks says

Transcript? Transcript in RUSSIAN though, I don't want a translation.

I haven't seen one.

I use this telegram channel to learn what Russian govt thinks/plans/etc as we need to get information from all available sources.

richwicks says

What I find funny is that all the people that, supposedly, speak Russian here are rah rah pro Ukrainian. That's so weird.

History and prior experience with Russia/Russians.

Even though I am not Russian, 25 yrs ago I could pass for one as I could speak Russian almost without accent. Now I don't practice as much as there is less need and opportunity.

richwicks says

What I find funny is that all the people that, supposedly, speak Russian here are rah rah pro Ukrainian. That's so weird.

Not weird at all. They know something that you don't, or pretend not to.

If pro-Ukrainians on boards weird you out, then Ukrainian fighters (as they predominantly speak Russian as their first language) must drive you batshit crazy.

Bd6r says

richwicks says

What I find funny is that all the people that, supposedly, speak Russian here are rah rah pro Ukrainian. That's so weird.

History and prior experience with Russia/Russians.

From whom?

Bd6r says

Even though I am not Russian, 25 yrs ago I could pass for one as I could speak Russian almost without accent. Now I don't practice as much as there is less need and opportunity.

That's interesting - why did you learn Russian?

The FACTS are that Ukraine is immeasurably worse off after pursuing a war with Russia for 3 months with lots of help from the USA. If we hadn’t helped them it would be over and they’d have had to make a peace deal. All that loss of life and destruction could have been averted. Worst case they’d be a satellite state of Russia like they’ve always been, like Crimea is, or Belarus. The government in Ukraine wasn’t better than Russian government. It was probably even more corrupt, and more racist and more intolerant of ethnic minorities.
Losing Zelenskyy’s government is not a loss for Ukraine or the world.
Frankly I’m impatient for him to capitulate already and end this farce.
But his masters in the WEF won’t let him.

richwicks says

From whom?

Family and country history. Repeatedly invaded by Russians, family members murdered, etc.
richwicks says

That's interesting - why did you learn Russian?

City where I lived has a decent-sized Russian population, and as a kid it is easy to pick up new languages. It took me a month to start speaking Russian when I was 8 or 9. Learned to read and write Russian (Cyrillic alphabet) later as we were forced to take Russian language lessons in high school (disliked at the time, now I am happy because I know something that I would not have known otherwise).

Shaman says

The FACTS are that Ukraine is immeasurably worse off after pursuing a war with Russia for 3 months with lots of help from the USA. If we hadn’t helped them it would be over and they’d have had to make a peace deal.

This Kremlin talking point is a great demonstration of success of Rashist propaganda campaign of the last years.
Fact1: for Russia, it was always about the land grab.
Fact2: The "peace deal" means surrendering land and population to Russia, which plays right into their hands.
Fact3: Rashists won't stop. They will utilize the obtained land and population for future assaults. This "peace deal" is exactly, EXACTLY what they want to continue the expansion.
This is well understood and emphasized by the fact that countries closer to Russia are more willing to help Ukraine with weapons and ammo.

Poland and Baltic states understand that they are getting a sweet deal: they pay with money and technology, while Ukraine at the front line pays with blood. If Ukraine loses then some years from now they will have to pay with their own blood. Everybody can see now that Ukrainians are great fighters. Nobody wants to see them consumed by Russia and eventually becoming part of the force that will go against Europe, under Rashists banner.

US understands it too. US helps, but nearly not as much as it should.

mostly reader says

Poland and Baltic states understand that they are getting a sweet deal: they pay with money and technology, while Ukraine at the front line pays with blood.

+Czechia and Slovakia. I believe Czechs are pissed because Russian operatives blew up an arms depot a while ago, killing 2 Czechs. + older history

So what? So we want Russia to have to kill more people and bomb more cities to rubble to get what they want rather than do it more diplomatically? Since we aren’t gonna stop them, and nobody else is gonna, why prolong the inevitable? Who does that serve?

Shaman says

Since we aren’t gonna stop them,

Says who? With proper help Ukrainians will break their arms and kick out their teeth. Adequate military help from the west is THE CHEAPEST way to nip it in the bud. Emphasis on adequate, which is not yet happening.

Bd6r says

Since we aren’t gonna stop them, and nobody else is gonna, why prolong the inevitable? Who does that serve?

The offense contractors are loving it, and you KNOW they are plenty of people getting kickbacks from "aid" to Ukraine.

Bd6r says

mostly reader says

Poland and Baltic states understand that they are getting a sweet deal: they pay with money and technology, while Ukraine at the front line pays with blood.

+Czechia and Slovakia. I believe Czechs are pissed because Russian operatives blew up an arms depot a while ago, killing 2 Czechs. + older history

Once you see "1968", figuring out the rest is easy :)

Bd6r says

richwicks says

That's interesting - why did you learn Russian?

City where I lived has a decent-sized Russian population, and as a kid it is easy to pick up new languages. It took me a month to start speaking Russian when I was 8 or 9. Learned to read and write Russian (Cyrillic alphabet) later as we were forced to take Russian language lessons in high school (disliked at the time, now I am happy because I know something that I would not have known otherwise).

That's interesting, what's your national background, meaning where were you at 8 years old, what nation?

mostly reader says

Shaman says

Since we aren’t gonna stop them,

Says who?

Says 20 years of US intervention.

Either the US is run by fucking idiots that are entirely incompetent OR it's run by a group of people who don't even wish to win and are just using all the wars for internal graft to enrich themselves. Could be run by a combination of both.

You can't see a pattern of abject failure yet? The failures are so consistent and have been going on for so long, it's difficult to imagine that they aren't achieving their precise objectives and we're just being lied about what their objectives are. They lied about why they attacked Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan and Pakistan. US objectives in Ukraine are unknown. Maybe they just wanted to kill a bunch of Ukrainians? Maybe they wanted to fuck Europe over? Maybe they just wanted an excuse to steal Russia's foreign reserves? Who knows.

One thing I DO know, is the assholes that run US foreign policy don't give a damned about human life. Just a bunch of cockroaches dying in their eyes.

richwicks says

Says 20 years of US intervention.

I respectfully decline the invitation to join your hallucination. Keep it to yourself.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Says 20 years of US intervention.

I respectfully decline the invitation to join your hallucination. Keep it to yourself.

Just saying "you're wrong" - which is what you are doing - doesn't demonstrate I'm wrong.

* Do you think the US went to war with Iraq to stop a weapons of mass destruction program that didn't exist?
* Do you think the US bombed Libya to "prevent a humanitarian crisis" in Libya? They left it in civil war with operating slavery markets
* Do you think the US bombed Syria to "stop Assad from using chemical weapons"? We know the Douma chemical attack never happened - two OPCW whistleblowers came forward to prove that was staged.
* Originally the war in Afghanistan war was to "get bin Laden", but he died in 2011. The Afghanistan war ended 2021 - so we know for certain the US government was lying about that objective
* The US didn't even bother to give a reason for bombing Pakistan.

Being able to see my government is lying, and you being unable to do this doesn't mean I am experiencing a hallucination or a delusion. It means you are, and after 20 years of being in this poorly cast spell, it's quite remarkable.

The reason I believe that ALL the objectives are lies, and the actual objectives were met, is because nobody ever gets fired for their "mistakes", ever. Nobody is reprimanded, nobody is even embarrassed. In fact, George Tenet who took all the blame for the "mistaken" intelligence on Iraq got the Presidential Medal of Freedom.



Our federal government isn't making mistakes, they are lying and I think quite obviously - in some cases, egregiously:


original link


So obviously that when somebody denies it, I have an extremely difficult time not placing a person like you in either the bucket of soulless shill, or lunatic. I can't imagine anybody can be that gullible.

I'm certain that US objectives in Ukraine WILL be met, may already have been met. The objective isn't for Ukraine to win this war. That's NOT one of the objectives.

> richwicks

I don't care to venture into your la-la-land. I've repeatedly observed and pointed out gaps in your reasoning in the past to be absolutely positive: you are either an illogical and deeply disturbed individual, or (likelier) a propaganda troll.

My point was super simple, albeit two-fold:
- with proper help, Ukrainians will kick Rashist asses.
- that help is wise investment for all players because, if not granted, some years from now Buchas will be happening in their backyards.

Why you decided to respond to that simple point by another irrelevant "US bad!" tantrum is beyond me.

We invaded Iraq and didn't even get the gas.

America, FIRST. Look at the shit that's going on at home.

Biden's sending another $1B for Ukraine, and Trump had to twist arms and play technicality games to get $1B for border security- with a Republican Congress FFS.
This means we can't chew gum and walk at the same time.

Michigan DA's saying there should be Drag Queens in Every School.
Biden announcing he's signing a raft of EOs to defund school lunches to protect Groomer LGBTQ+ recruitment by Public Schools.
$5 gas
10% wholesale inflation (probably 20%)

Fuck Ukraine, America FIRST.

mostly reader says

> richwicks

I don't care to venture into your la-la-land. I've repeatedly observed and pointed out gaps in your reasoning in the past to be absolutely positive: you are either an illogical and deeply disturbed individual, or (likelier) a propaganda troll.

My point was super simple, albeit two-fold:
- with proper help, Ukrainians will kick Rashist asses.
- that help is wise investment for all players because, if not granted, some years from now Buchas will be happening in their backyards.

Why you decided to respond to that simple point by another irrelevant "US bad!" tantrum is beyond me.

Do you believe that Russia simply invaded for the purpose of taking land? No other reasons? If so, that sounds absurd. The US played no role? You don't think it could have anything to do with encroachment by NATO? If the roles were reversed and Russia and their allies were doing in Mexico what the US and NATO have been doing in the Ukraine, what would your response be?

"I see so many Ukraine flags in America of people showing their support, but I didn't see a single American flag in Ukraine."

https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1537213680768921600?s=20&t=hznU9SB6B5hxwC41_Ap2pQ

proxy war between russia and west. its not land grab.

liberal world order vs russia

WineHorror1 says

Do you believe that Russia simply invaded for the purpose of taking land? No other reasons?

yes, please listen to Putler clip I posted above

richwicks says

That's interesting, what's your national background, meaning where were you at 8 years old, what nation?

can't tell, would dox myself but in one of former Soviet republics. @Patrick knows as I met him :)

AmericanKulak says

Biden's sending another $1B for Ukraine,

Trump was 1st who sent arms to Ukraine BTW, and I posted interview where he said he would give F-22's to Ukraine. This is a fact which other side of debate seems to ignore. I am not sure what is Trump's reasoning - perhaps he wants to scare Russians if he wins in 2024

Bd6r says

Patrick knows as I met him :)

True!

WineHorror1 says

Do you believe that Russia simply invaded for the purpose of taking land? No other reasons? If so, that sounds absurd.

Not only it doesn't sound absurd, it's the only explanation that makes sense. Indeed, "land" here should be understood as a geopolitical construct. I.e. "land", "water", "population", "technological capacities", etc, etc, etc - everything that comes with it.

No one in the right mind believes in the "liberation from Nazis" narrative, now that the "liberated" fight the Orcs tooth and nail. No one in the right mind believes in the "protecting Russian-speaking people" narrative, now that Russian-speaking people of Ukraine fight the Orcs just the same. No one in the right mind believes in the "protection against NATO expansion" narrative, now that 1) it's clear even to the most dumb-witted that NATO is not in a hurry to embrace Ukraine 2) NATO is in fact expanding as a result of this war, and nobody cares.

This is fully consistent with Russia's history of expansion through hybrid wars - first Pridnestrovie/Moldova, then Georgia, now Ukraine. Ukraine is a much larger scale operation than the others, and the preparation for it was in the works for a long time. Crimea and Lugansk/Donetsk are some of the better known episodes of that preparation.

i don’t believe anything our faggot media says.

they lied to us, abused us, abusing our children by pushing gay on them. i rather not support gay. and they supposedly support Ukraine. i have nothing bad for Ukraine, feel bad for them even, but utterly hate everyone who supports them.

mostly reader says

My point was super simple, albeit two-fold:
- with proper help, Ukrainians will kick Rashist asses.

What would this "proper help" be? The US is going to dump billions into Ukraine, I predict they will spent at least $200 billion before this is over. They've already sent Ukraine more "aid" money than Russia's yearly budget for their military. Whatever "help" the US offers, it won't be enough is my suspicion.

We'll see.

I don't think the US cares about Ukraine winning this conflict. They primarily expect that Russia will be hurt by this war and will prolong it as much as possible and will do whatever it takes to make it continue. The USSR did this with us in Vietnam and I think Russia is fully prepared for this war to go on for years.

mostly reader says

- that help is wise investment for all players because, if not granted, some years from now Buchas will be happening in their backyards.

Russia hasn't shown itself to be at all expansionist since the USSR dissolved so I doubt this. The US has been screaming (falsely as aways) about "Russian aggression" for 20 years, while they hypocritically bombed 7 nations. I've heard estimates (who knows if they are true?) that in that time 20 million people have been killed over that time but take that with a grain of salt. The US has zero credibility so I'd be quite shocked if these habitual and compulsive liars were right this one time. They never are.

All my government has done for 20 years has been to lie to me, continually, brazenly, obviously. Some of the ridiculous bullshit propaganda coming from our "news" and federal government already have been exposed.

mostly reader says

Why you decided to respond to that simple point by another irrelevant "US bad!" tantrum is beyond me.

Because for months you have apparently swallowed every load of shit the US propaganda machine has said about this war. It's not "US bad!" - every government is bad. It's "US Federal Government total fucking liars", and they are lying about this as well. To what extent I don't know, but if the last 20 years is any guide, the extent is as much as they can lie about it.

The statements, and predictions made by my government are 99% false when it comes to anything regarding foreign policy or relations or entanglements, or at least have been in the past. I can only see in hindsight how full of shit they were and it's too early for me, at least, to tell at this point. I'm actually giving my criminal syndicate the benefit of the doubt at this point - not because I believe I should though, just an attempt to be objective.

mostly reader says

No one in the right mind believes in the "protection against NATO expansion" narrative, now that 1) it's clear even to the most dumb-witted that NATO is not in a hurry to embrace Ukraine 2) NATO is in fact expanding as a result of this war, and nobody cares.

Then Zelenskyy should state that Ukraine doesn't have any intention of joining NATO and do this at the UN and that kicks out one of Putin's justification for the war.

If Ukraine REALLY wants to fuck with Russia, Zelenskyy should just unconditionally agree to all of Russia's original requests and terms, unconditionally if you're correct. In this way, Russia suddenly has no justification for continuing the war and if it continues regardless, well Zelenskyy is no worse off, and Putin is clearly the bad guy who is doing what the US is doing - making a false justification for an unjustified war.

Syria did this. They "gave up their chemical weapons". Iraq did this, they "ended their weapons of mass destruction program" and "allowed inspectors". Libya did this, they "abandoned their WMD program". It just doesn't make a difference, the US attacks anyhow. This is why the US doesn't have any credibility any more. The US makes conditions, conditions are met, it doesn't change the outcome. The US makes excuses for war, but they never publicly announce what the objectives of the war are.

Bd6r says

richwicks says

That's interesting, what's your national background, meaning where were you at 8 years old, what nation?

can't tell, would dox myself but in one of former Soviet republics. @Patrick knows as I met him :)

Oh man.

Here's where I grew up:

https://goo.gl/maps/NYLYENESZWTZwbhu6

And I'm using my real name.

Jesus, you think I'm going to track you down? I don't believe you do.

Harrisville, back when I was a kid, had a K-12 school system that had a total of 300 students. You can literally go to that town, ask 5 people, and one of them would know me. I live in Sunnyvale California now.

richwicks says

can't tell, would dox myself but in one of former Soviet republics.

You mean Columbia University in New York City?

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

i don’t believe anything our faggot media says.

they lied to us, abused us

Standard Operating Procedure.

The US government lies to the public, provokes war, and when there's finally a response, the public is shocked, and we're all told "Day h8 us 4 Я freedumb"

They did this with Pearl Harbor. The US had an oil embargo on Japan and was constantly provoking them. The US public was never informed so when Pearl Harbor came around, the public was shocked and outraged. We have better information now, we're bypassing the US media. This is why we have censorship.

I keep pointing out, we really don't have any serious foreign enemies to the Constitution, we have them at home. Remember, "a well-informed citizenry, being necessary to the liberty of a free state" - well we aren't a free state, but we're starting to threaten to become one..

Ceffer says

You mean Columbia University in New York City?

That is a current Soviet republic, not former one :)

richwicks says

Russia hasn't shown itself to be at all expansionist since the USSR dissolved so I doubt this.

This, right here. Statements like this are the reason why you are a laughing stock. At first I wanted to say "why you have no credibility", but this one goes above and beyond.

Just in this thread I called Pridnestrovie/Moldova and Georgia (did you not notice?) Just in this thread we were talking about military operations that they were carrying out in Ukraine and in Czech republic for years (did you not notice?)

Hybrid wars and installing puppet governments became Russia's signature move since USSR dissolved. That's despite having lousy economy, not being able to build a car, having no social net, and raising retirement age to above life expectancy. This demonstrates priorities. If they were stronger, I think that instead of hybrid wars and puppet governments they'd be trying to alter borders. Oh, wait, they were already! Crimea! (did you not notice?)

Most Russian speakers here who watch Russian TV will confirm: national exclusivity and superiority is the current theme of the day. So terms "Rashists" and "Putler" are not just a figure of speech. This kind of propaganda for internal audience is ground work for what's apparently being planned. I suspect that similar was happening in Germany mid-30s.

"Russia hasn't shown itself to be at all expansionist"? You don't care about credibility at all, do you?

richwicks says

Then Zelenskyy should state that Ukraine doesn't have any intention of joining NATO and do this at the UN and that kicks out one of Putin's justification for the war.

There are no "then"s. You shouldn't be telling Zelensky what to do, and neither should be Putler. No country should be dictating another independent country it's terms for non-assault. "He should've bended backwards" is not a valid argument, especially when further events demonstrate it patently wrong. It's your opinion, and a ridiculous one. It doesn't add anything to the conversation. You resort to it because your can't produce a valid counter-argument.

In light of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED (Ukraine is not joining NATO, two other Russia's neighbors are joining NATO and nobody cares) that the NATO excuse was a misdirection should be obvious even to the dumb-witted. I repeat myself here, but that's the trouble with talking to the dumb-witted, you have to repeat yourself on occasion.