patrick.net

https://gettr.com/post/p1fsx2a5992

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I just don't think

You could stop right there.

Of course you don't: thinking is not in job description of a propagandist.

What I think changes nothing.

If Russia gets what it claims it wants - that Ukraine remain neutral, that Ukraine stops bombing Eastern Ukraine - what will you say then?

You can call me anything you wish, but I'm just trying to look at this situation objectively. I know people are dying, I know there's bloodshed, I want it to end, and I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine. How do you end the bloodshed?

There's a well defined Western idea of war. You fight a war PROVIDED you have a good chance of winning the war, and that the war is worthwhile to engage in. I think the Ukraine/Russian war fails both those tests. Russia CLAIMS what Ukraine is doing is an existential threat to it. That's their claim (perhaps lie?), but if they act upon this, it will be nuclear war before they lose, and I don't think they will resort to that.

This is nothing more than another stupid fucking war, which assholes like this dickhead:


original link

are promoting.

You have to understand, please, these motherfuckers don't give a fuck about innocent people dying. They are using Ukraine for money laundering and they don't give a fuck if they are successful or not. It's just money laundering. They don't care.

It's said (who knows if it's true) that only 10% of the Russian military is engaged with this stupid fucking war that is being run by criminal triple and double staters and criminal hangers on. They don't give a fuck who wins. They make money off from this calamity. They don't care.

Our fucking president doesn't give a shit about the outcome. The chaos makes him money. That's our rulers.

richwicks says

I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine. How do you end the bloodshed?

You repeat the same debunked message over and over again. "Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine" my ass. News flash: Putin started that hybrid war in 2014, and then full invasion in 2022.

I just watched Lavrov's interview with BBC (in Russian) The conviction with which this guy is lying to your face is amazing. Every time he says something that's hard to believe, I go double-check - and sure enough, he's twisting reality like a pretzel. Trouble with doing an interview with someone like him is that the interviewer can't jump online while doing the interview, so Lavrov doesn't get exposed on the spot.

Just one example. Zelensky have said earlier that if someone lives in Ukraine they live in Ukraine. If they want to be part of Russia then they better move there. Lavrov twisted it into claiming that "Zelensky said that Russian speakers are not welcome in Ukraine and better move to Russia". Something along these lines. The dipshit claimed it with a straight face.

That's how they build their talking points to brainwash the gullible. It's their specialty. What you try to present as a "sensible approach" is built up on the worldview constructed by professional liars and scammers .

mostly reader says

Just one example. Zelensky have said earlier that if someone lives in Ukraine they live in Ukraine. If they want to be part of Russia then they better move there. Lavrov twisted it into claiming that "Zelensky said that Russian speakers are not welcome in Ukraine and better move to Russia". Something along these lines. The dipshit claimed it with a straight face.

What you and Zelensky are advocating is called Ethnic Cleansing. Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy. In fact, in this case is worse than Ethnic Cleansing: usually Ethnic Cleansing involves the removal of an ethnic minority from a region, whereas in this case Russian speakers who don't want to be discriminated by Zelensky regime are the majority of the region. The situation is rather analogous to Kosovo in the 1990's: the majority of locals wanted to either be "independent" or join Albania despite existing geopolitical map having that region as part of Serbia; on that occasion, the NATO intervened militarily to stop Serbia from suppressing locals. The operating theory was/is that National Sovereignty and Territorial Integrity do not trump Basic Human Rights; that is actually a good principle to uphold if/when it's a struggle between democracies vs. dictatorships. "Germany for Germans" "Serbia for Serbians" and "Ukraine for Ukrainians" are all essentially national-socialistic/Nazi slogans. The leaders of any multi-ethnic country are supposed to be accommodative to its existing populations, not discriminate against ethnic/linguistic groups within its borders.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine. How do you end the bloodshed?

You repeat the same debunked message over and over again. "Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine" my ass. News flash: Putin started that hybrid war in 2014, and then full invasion in 2022.

Ohhhhh! DEBONKED!! You say it like Abracadabra. It's magic word now. Just say the magic word of "DEBONKED" and whatever you say next magically has been proven untrue.

The United States engineered a coup d’état of Ukraine in 2014. AGAIN the proof (this is not debatable) of this is that Victoria Nuland was caught picking out the next leader of Ukraine at least 2 weeks and 4 days before the previously, ELECTED, leader was removed from power. The call was made available on Feb 4, 2014, Viktor Yanukovych left power on Feb 22, 2014.

Right after that coup, Eastern Ukraine was at war with Western Ukraine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

That began in March 2014, after the coup d'etat because they didn't accept the coup d’état. That's a MONTH later.

If the US didn't overthrow Ukraine's government, there would have been no conflict between Eastern and Western Ukraine. This is obvious, but you can't see the obvious or pretend not to be able to see it. I don't know which one it is, who cares?

YOU deny there was a coup, because either you lack basic thinking skills, you just lie, whatever, I don't care. It was obviously a coup, and people who deny it was a coup are for whatever reason living in a fantasy world. The absolute, obvious fact that a coup was done by the United States is obvious. It's the most blatantly obvious coup EVER.

I'm in Silicon Valley, I have begun to use this example of the most obvious coup d’état ever in the history of the world, to detect people's level of cognitive dissonance. I have a friend, who is an MIT graduate, that can't explain how Victoria Nuland was picking the next leader of Ukraine (Arseniy Yatseniuk) 2 weeks and 4 days before Viktor Yanukovych left office, despite me giving him the transcript between Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

He's JUST LIKE YOU, he denies it. I can't IMAGINE having such slavish obedience to the state as to truly believe them when they say 2+2=3 or 2+2=5 depending on what the state says.

You, are nothing more than a broken George Winston to me, and the same is true of my MIT graduate friend. I didn't know how few people actually had balls and a backbone, but it's been made VERY clear in the last 2 years. Anybody that told me that the unvaccinated posed a threat to the vaccinated, anybody that told me CHILDREN should be vaccinated, because the CHILD might kill 80 year old grandma, pathetic. I have a friend that is 10 years younger than me, I have stated to him outright that if his children's freedom has to be curtailed in order to reduce the possibility of me getting a fatal disease, just put a bullet in my head - as I've lived my life and his children have not.

I've struggled for DECADES to understand what a bunch of NATURAL SLAVES I live among, I had no idea. I had no idea what a bunch of pathetic cocksockers I lived among. I honestly had no clue.

We have the most obvious, blatant example of an CIA coup, and you deny it. It's hilarious. You are ANGRY with me, because I'm not such a fucking pathetic pussy that I refuse to deny it along with you. You have no freedom of thought, somebody controls it. THAT is why you're so pissed off with me, constantly. I'm allowed to do something you dream of doing, I can make an independent conclusion divorced from the stupid bullshit propaganda of my government.

In 10 years you'll begrudgingly admit you were wrong, PRIVATELY, never to me. Until then you'll repeat the lie, a lie which protects the Biden's involvement of the coup. Hunter Biden, the crackwhore, was placed on the board of Burisma on April, 2014 - 2 months after the coup. What a "coincidence!" you lie to yourself.

It's, hands down, the most blatant example of corruption in my lifetime and you pretend not to see it. It's just pathetic. You're a coward.

All I am doing is encouraging you not to be such a coward. I can do it, so can you. I don't understand what people are so afraid of. All that happens is NPC nutjobs, like you, scream at you and repeat propaganda like idiots. Propaganda, in this case, are just obvious lies. I'm more embarrassed to repeat a lie, than to call out the truth. You, are not. There's no real consequences other than you're able to detect who accepts being lied to, and who doesn't. 90% of the people I know, are pussies.

Do you hate Russia, or it's government? Who gives a shit, reality doesn't care about your feelings, and your feelings don't effect reality. Regardless of who you or I support in this stupid fucking war, won't effect the outcome of the war at all. If I was a pathetic cocksucker, I could scream about Russia being BAAAAAD and those poor Ukrainians, and so on. I could repeat the bullshit about the Ghost of "Kyiv" and those martyrs on Snake Island, I could scream about how evil Putler is and so on, like a moron sheep, but it will have no effect on the outcome of this conflict.

I'm only interest in how my stupid fucking incredible government lies to me and secondarily, how many people have absolutely blind obedience to them, no matter how fucking stupid the propaganda is. You're a slavish obedient. The levels of absurdity people will go through to defend the madness, it's hilarious.

Reality says

Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy.

How did it work out for Chechnya?
Picture below shows the Butcher of Chechnya who is responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Chechens with some persons you might know:

Bd6r says

Reality says

Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy.

How did it work out for Chechnya?

The US doesn't support regional self-determination. Isn't Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen proof of that?

The US will cynically claim regional self-determination exclusively when it's in US foreign policy interests. They entirely ignore it otherwise. The US doesn't care about self-determination although it's claimed to be a fundamental human right. The US doesn't care about human rights, just ask the people who were protesting a stolen election of which 800 are in prison right now.

Reality says

What you and Zelensky are advocating is called Ethnic Cleansing. Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy. In fact, in this case is worse than Ethnic Cleansing: usually Ethnic Cleansing involves the removal of an ethnic minority from a region, whereas in this case Russian speakers who don't want to be discriminated by Zelensky regime are the majority of the region.

Zelensky have said nothing that would align with "removal of an ethnic minority". His message was clearly about the country in which those people live. Then Lavrov turned it into something that it wasn't (hey, I saw this pattern before! among some of the contributors here, no further) In his usual "pee in your face and tell you that it's raining" kind of way.

I'd think that it would be too much even for him to continue yapping about suppression of Russian language. Since Russian-speaking people of Ukraine kick ass against the Rashists on the battlefield. But no, let's not those little inconveniences get in the way of good propaganda.

richwicks says

Ohhhhh! DEBONKED!! You say it like Abracadabra.

I say it like someone who repeatedly pointed it out and explained why. It wasn't hard: we now know all the details of the beginning of that hybrid war. The operatives who started it told us. In interviews. That's right, they told us themselves. Then, of course, you respond to me without reading (as you self-confessed), and I suspect that you do the same kind of data filtering for other facts that trash your worldview.

You get spanked, pretend that it didn't happen, and continue spewing your usual nonsense.

mostly reader says

That's right, they told us themselves.

That was in Russian, which most of Patnet armchair experts do not understand. Hence, according to them this must not exist, as it goes against their deepest-held beliefs.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Ohhhhh! DEBONKED!! You say it like Abracadabra.

I say it like someone who repeatedly pointed it out and explained why.

You are no different than a fact checker that makes a false claim then swears it's true. All you do is destroy your reputation.

The United States overthrew Ukraine in 2014. We know this for a fact because Victoria Nuland selected the next leader of Ukraine. The war in Eastern and Western Ukraine happened only a month later. The new US puppet leadership of Ukraine then began making open statements of joining NATO although neither Germany nor Italy would ever permit it.

This indicates that if the US didn't overthrow Ukraine there would have been no civil war and Russia would have never invaded Ukraine to end the civil war and to keep Ukraine out of NATO.

The war could have easily been prevented but now that it's happened, you stupidly side with the assholes that set the grounds for it. Russia will win the conflict and the result will be a lot of dead people, that didn't have to die. It's unlikely Russia will be weaker as a result, but that was the hope of the United States.

mostly reader says

you respond to me without reading (as you self-confessed),

Your thinking is so disjointed, so absurd, that if it happens that you were to write something that coincidentally turns out to be correct, it would poison my thinking.

Your logic and reasoning is so bad, I consider anything you write as being from a madman, and madmen can be correct occasionally. I don't want to dismiss something that is true, just because a crazy person wrote it, because you wrote it. You have consistently shown you have no regard for reality.

Bd6r says

Hence, according to them this must not exist, as it goes against their deepest-held beliefs.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. It doesn't help if the horse wears blinders.

Why do I think about Lavrov when I write about horses?

richwicks says

Your thinking is so disjointed, so absurd, that if it happens that you were to write something that coincidentally turns out to be correct, it would poison my thinking.

A better explanation is that you are so invested in your worldview that you experience physical pain when it comes down crumbling. The horse that wears blinders shouldn't be surprised that it gets whipped every once in a while.

mostly reader says

Bd6r says

Hence, according to them this must not exist, as it goes against their deepest-held beliefs.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. It doesn't help if the horse wears blinders.

Why do I think about Lavrov when I write about horses?

Because he has a horse-like face and his intellect is probably less than that of an average horse?

About persons who think that talking to Russia is useful, here is an opinion of someone who knows Russia/Putler very well. Why do you think he behaves differently in Ukraine?

https://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2005/06/20/35300/m--udugov-rossiya-dolzhna-byt-vzyata-pod-vneshnee-upravlenie.shtml

As for Putin, there are all signs of a classic war criminal and international terrorist. Putin carried out military aggression against a sovereign state, violating the Russian-Chechen peace treaty. Putin killed a quarter of a million civilians, that is, 25% of the entire Chechen people. Putin killed tens of thousands of Chechen children of preschool and school age, declaring all children from the age of 10 terrorists. Putin has organized and is carrying out the genocide of the Chechen people. Putin carried out a terrorist act outside of Russia in a foreign country, killing the ex-president of the CRI Yandarbiev, using the diplomatic mail of the Russian Foreign Ministry to transfer explosives to Qatar. Putin carried out a terrorist act on the territory of the CRI, killing President Maskhadov. Putin has carried out and continues to carry out the murders of Chechen politicians and public figures abroad and on the territory of the CRI. Putin carries out mass kidnappings. Putin initiated the creation in Chechnya and in Russia of torture concentration camps, bandit terrorist formations and "death squadrons". Putin gave the order to poison people in Nord-Ost and to shoot children in Beslan with tanks and flamethrowers.

The question must be put in a completely different way - no negotiations can be held with Putin. The condition for negotiations with Russia should be not only the withdrawal of troops, but also the arrest and extradition of Putin to Chechen law enforcement agencies. Any accusations against Basayev, if anyone has them, can be considered exclusively by the laws of the Chechen State.

Putin is no match for Basayev, they cannot be put on the same level. Putin is a war criminal, a serial killer who has committed crimes against humanity. Basayev is the defender of his Fatherland, who resorts to forced measures in order to stop the mass extermination of his people.

A crisis has matured in Russia, and an explosion is only a matter of time. Russia under Putin is increasingly slipping into the league of failed states. By all indications, it is clear that the regime is concerned about its future and is ready to fight for its survival. It is difficult to predict what will come to mind of its leaders at the time of the crisis.

Taking into account the fact that this regime has weapons of mass destruction in its hands, which are being squandered uncontrollably (and these facts are known to exist), there should already be an emergency anti-crisis plan to establish an international administration in Moscow, to send special troops to high-risk facilities, isolation of the most odious military and political figures.

One can be willing to consider that Putin has broken his word quite a few times and therefore is not the best person to negotiate with, but one cannot argue with people claiming the Ukraine was not overthrown in 2014 with the help of the US to install a US friendly, corrupt puppet-government - look no further to xiden and burisma. Both can be true at the same time. So don't gaslight and be obtuse about the overthrow, it does not help the arguments. Also, should you truly believe this was the will of the Ukrainian people then you should be happy about the Russians and Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity asserting themselves in the donetsk and luhansk region, just fighting for the government they want. Meanwhile people continue to die without any serious negotiation efforts.

mell says

therefore is not the best person to negotiate with

therefore negotiating with him is pointless, as Chechens have repeatedly stated from their own experience.
mell says

Russians and Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity asserting themselves in the donetsk and luhansk region, just fighting for the government they want.

We don't know that, may be the plurality were for Ukraine, or did not care.
mell says

Ukraine was not overthrown in 2014 with the help of the US to install a US friendly, corrupt puppet-government

That gubbermint was voted out a few yrs ago in an extremely acrimonious election

Bd6r says

mell says

Ukraine was not overthrown in 2014 with the help of the US to install a US friendly, corrupt puppet-government

That gubbermint was voted out a few yrs ago in an extremely acrimonious election

It seems unlikely to me that the Ukrainian government was legitimately elected either before or after 2014. In the first case, I expect Russia placed a Russia-friendly guy in power, and in the second case I expect the US placed a US-friendly guy in power.

The Ukrainian voters probably had little say in it either way. Kind of like with American voters in 2020.

Patrick says

Bd6r says

mell says

Ukraine was not overthrown in 2014 with the help of the US to install a US friendly, corrupt puppet-government

That gubbermint was voted out a few yrs ago in an extremely acrimonious election

It seems unlikely to me that the Ukrainian government was legitimately elected either before or after 2014. In the first case, I expect Russia placed a Russia-friendly guy in power, and in the second case I expect the US placed a US-friendly guy in power.

The Ukrainian voters probably had little say in it either way. Kind of like with American voters in 2020.

Agreed. What is the difference though between people "uprising and overthrowing" their government in the Ukraine vs in donbass or crimea? None. Talking pre Putin war of course, the situation has been volatile in those regions for many years.

mell says

What is the difference though between people "uprising and overthrowing" their government in the Ukraine vs in donbass or crimea?

illegitimate presence of foreign troops in Donbass and Crimea.

mostly reader says

A better explanation is that you are so invested in your worldview that you experience physical pain when it comes down crumbling.

I have repeatedly pointed out that all there is left to do is wait with regard to the Ukraine / Russian conflict.

My "worldview", as you call it, is that the US Federal government is run by a bunch of stupid assholes that continually lie to the US public, about literally everything. Since they are telling what remains of the stupid public that is dumb enough to still listen to them, that Ukraine will be successful in this war, from that alone I judge it false.

But we will know in time, won't we? I'm perfectly happy to wait.

Bd6r says

About persons who think that talking to Russia is useful, here is an opinion of someone who knows Russia/Putler

As soon as I see stupidity like "Putler" I just conclude I'm reading the writings of an idiot because they are trying to control my thinking as if I'm an 8 year old child.

Grow the fuck up if you have anything serious to write or communicate.

richwicks says

Grow the fuck up if you have anything serious to write or communicate.

Like you did when you predicted that Putler will not attack Ukraine? Or when you claimed that there were no Russian troops in Donbass in 2014? Or that Crimea had 90% Russian population?

And I am really sorry for hurting your feelings by misnaming your favorite politician. In same vein I am so sorry also for misnaming Bidet.

Bd6r says

And I am really sorry for hurting your feelings by misnaming your favorite politician.

You didn't hurt my feelings of course, or name my favorite politician, which I think is still Ron Paul.

You engaged in stupidity. Stop doing that.

Everybody, and I mean literally everybody our dumb fucking government of incompetents and criminals hates is compared to Hitler. Hussein was, Qaddafi was, Assad was, Ahmadinejad was, it's tiresome and it's not serious. Grow the fuck up.

I'm so fucking tired of this bullshit after 20 years of it. "Oh, our fucking criminal government that has murdered 20 million people over the course of 20 years over endless bullshit, called X HITLER!!!! OH MY! I must hate him, because I'm fucking stupid!!!"

When the same, stupid, fucking, OBVIOUS trick has been played on you for two GRUELING decades, stop falling for it. Come up with a new trick, ancient fucking decrepit assholes. If you're going to do and repeat propaganda, at least put in some minor amount of fucking effort into it. I'm not even asking for major effort, just stop calling everybody that the US federal government of assholes wants us to hate "hitler". Do better.

You could call him Stalin for example, or Lenin, but that might alienate the stupid communist soy boy twats. Well, maybe you should give them up.

Bd6r says

richwicks says

Grow the fuck up if you have anything serious to write or communicate.

Like you did when you predicted that Putler will not attack Ukraine?

Well, I did do that, I don't know if I did it here, but I didn't think "Putler" would attack Ukraine.

I was wrong. Oh well.

See? I can do something that is unthinkable to you, I can admit error.

richwicks says

Well, I did do that, I don't know if I did it here, but I didn't think "Putler" would attack Ukraine.

How about 90% Russians in Crimea, or your claims that Russian troops were not in Donbass in 2014, which you argued about vehemently?

All of this shows that you have little if any clue about what goes on in that part of the world.

richwicks says

You could call him Stalin for example, or Lenin,

If you can come up with a funny combination of Putin +Stalin I would use that. They both end in -in unfortunately

"It is being reported that already 50,000 Ukrainian soldier have died in the war. How many more needs to die to obey the globalist masters?"
That's the bloody question to this bloody waste of life.
https://youtu.be/NTpS7Z60frA

Q: what is the reason why Poland has provided Ukraine with 250 main battle tanks, hundreds of thousands of artillery shells, about a hundred howitzers, MANPADS, and a lot of small arms? And, at the same time, shows that negotiating with the Putler regime is pointless stupidity?

Answer can be found here, and is related to Russian terror act which resulted in killing Polish President and about 100 military in 2010 on Russian territory near Smolensk.

https://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2010/05/19/72501/KATyn-2--nezavisimye-eksperty-rasskazali-versiyu-kak-byl-ubit-kachinskij-i-vysshee-rukovodstvo-polshi.shtml

Fake NDB beacons were installed, with which the pilots in the Russian Il-76 misled the Polish pilot about the distance, as well as the level of deviation from the plane of the airport (the Russians could install a fake beacon 2 km away, where there were two real beacons, on which the Polish plane landed ).

If this was a planned terrorist attack, then the fog must have been artificial (a mysterious plane flying over the airport two hours before the crash).

After the crash, special events were held to cover up some inconvenient facts.

Given these facts, the following scenario emerges:

6:40 a.m. A mysterious plane begins to circle over the airport, coinciding with the rising fog.

7:15 Yak lands with Polish journalists.

7:30 A Polish presidential plane takes off from Warsaw.

7:35 Mobile beacons set to false position.

8:30 A Polish presidential plane and a Russian Il-76 circle over the airport. The tower decides that the Russian plane will land first, the plane additionally circles over the Polish one and goes to land (10 km from the airport), the standard distance between them in these conditions is about 6-10 km, which corresponds in time to 1.5 to 2 minutes.

08:37-45 IL-76 Russian aircraft begins to approach the ground (10 km from the airport), operators turn on false beacons when IL is between the first and second beacons to deceive the NDB of the Polish pilot. In addition, the first false beacon (7.1) is set approximately 1000 m below the actual landing plane. At the same time, the GPS system is disabled.

08:38:45 A Russian aircraft passes the NDB of the beacon at a distance of 6.1 km, begins to aim at false targets of the NDB signal of the beacon 2.1 km from the runway and 150 m below the airport level.

08:38:53 Polish plane starts landing approach. It is located 10 km from the airstrip. Receives signal from false NDB (set 7.1 km from the runway and about 1 km from the center of the airport). The Polish pilot begins to focus on the false signal sent by the beacon.

08:39:35 At a distance of 2.1 km from the airport, the aircraft receives a false signal from the Russian Il-76 NDB and begins to descend for landing.

08:39:43 At a distance of 7.1 km from the airport and a deviation from the runway of about 1 km, the Polish pilot receives a false signal at an altitude of about 300 meters from the second NDB beacon (2.1 km from the airport and with a deviation of 150 m from the runway).

08:39:47 Russian plane damages the NDB beacon (1.1 km, no problem, because the beacon is jammed).

8:39:50 A Russian Il-76 aircraft hits a power line at a distance of 1 km from the airport and cuts it off.

08:39:52 The Russian plane leans to the side to avoid hitting a tree. The tree is cut at an angle (135 degrees or 45) and manages to avoid a collision.

08:40:02 With the same one-wing tilt, the Russian plane almost collides with one of the planes standing at the airport, and, in accordance with the recommendations of the tower, flies back to Moscow.

8:40:10 Airport traffic controllers are shocked. They did not understand what the Russian Il-76 aircraft did, and once again strongly recommend that the Polish pilot fly to another airport.

08:41:02 The Polish plane hits a large birch tree, loses a significant part of the left wing, and the pilot lost control of the plane.

08:41:04-08 a Polish plane crashes, 300 meters from the airport and 150 meters below its level.

8:41 Russian air traffic controllers are shocked, they already know that something is wrong. It is virtually impossible for two pilots to make the same mistake. They begin to fear for their lives, do not turn on the siren and do not know what to do.

This scenario allows you to point to pilot error as the cause of the crash.

08:42-56 A pre-trained special forces group arrives at the crash site without raising an alarm. The terrorists are taking extra measures to ensure the death of all passengers and crew members. Undermine the fuselage of hard-to-break material. Engage in a firefight with armed BOR officers or Polish generals. They burn their bodies so that they do not leave traces of gunshot wounds.

08:55-56 At the crash site is a mysterious man who is filming the first film from the crash site.

8:56 After the crash site has been cordoned off, a siren sounds to start rescue work.

8:59 Firefighters arrive at the crash site.

9:00 Polish cameraman Wisniewski directs to the crash site and approaches it from the side opposite from that of the mysterious author of the first film. At the end of the film you can already see the extinguishing of the fire.

richwicks says

My "worldview", as you call it, is that the US Federal government is run by a bunch of stupid assholes that continually lie to the US public, about literally everything.

Nice diversion, but no. That "Western Ukraine just needs to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine" horseshit, among other things, categorizes you as either an doofus with a worldview or a propagandist.

Bd6r says

All of this shows that you have little if any clue about what goes on in that part of the world.

If he would only look up the word ultracrepidarian and realize how well it fits. But then again, if he could realize that then I wouldn't recommend that he looks it up.

So if Red Man Bad! What does that make the rest of the world given the result of "sanctions" has been the strengthening of Russia's economy..?

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB&view=1Y

I don't give two shits about Russia, except that they granted asylum to Snowden, versus England who is turning Assange over to the US to finish killing slowing in prison. And this is the problem for me. If you guy are all right, and Russia is so bad, stupid, poor, and losing, yet they're the ones granting our patriots sanctuary, they're experiencing the opposite of the inflation we're getting. And the countries lined up against them like England and the US are torturing innocent journalists to death. I mean if they're such shit, yet Russia is doing these things so much better than the countries you support...

I just don't see how you can so vehemently hate one side when the other does stuff just as bad and stupid, and is on it's way to becoming just as poor, because we're losing so badly.

I mean you guys are Americans. So where's your threads, and endless comments about how fucked up things are here? More importantly, what are you doing about it? Cuz love or hate Russia, it's fucking meaningless. YOU DON'T LIVE THERE! You live here, and we need help, badly.

NuttBoxer says

I mean you guys are Americans. So where's your threads, and endless comments about how fucked up things are here?

Because nothing proves your patriotism like bitching to the choir?

Btw, just so you know. There are people with valid grievances and then there are those who capitalize on other people having valid grievances. The latter could be either trolls/propagandists or perhaps agency workers baiting for whatever (you can call them master baitors) It's not always easy to tell them all apart.

NuttBoxer says

I don't give two shits about Russia, except that they granted asylum to Snowden, versus England who is turning Assange over to the US to finish killing slowing in prison. And this is the problem for me. If you guy are all right, and Russia is so bad, stupid, poor, and losing, yet they're the ones granting our patriots sanctuary, they're experiencing the opposite of the inflation we're getting. And the countries lined up against them like England and the US are torturing innocent journalists to death. I mean if they're such shit, yet Russia is doing these things so much better than the countries you support...

I just don't see how you can so vehemently hate one side when the other does stuff just as bad and stupid, and is on it's way to becoming just as poor, because we're losing so badly.

I mean you guys are Americans. So where's your threads, and endless comments about how fucked up things are here? More importantly, what are you doing about it? Cuz love or hate Russia, it's fucking...

I believe I have never said that SENILE MAN GOOD. Nearly everyone on Patnet agrees with this, and if I post 320 threads with this, it would be preaching to choir as they say.
About Snowden, good for him and I am happy that Russia gave him asylum, even though reason likely was to stick it to US and show duplicity of US propaganda. They should give him Nobel Peace prize together wits Assange, but this likely will not happen (Assange has been nominated three times but Nobel committee has no balls).

About Red Man Bad, I am annoyed that Patnetters who have nearly no idea about what goes on there and think of Putler as a force for good. Russia was one of first countries to develop The Jab (TM), there were certain vaccine mandates, they talk about centralized digital currencies, in nearly everything they are a mirror image of what happens here. Also, we now know that Biden Jr and by extension Bidet Sr most definitely was compromised by Russians (via prostitutes for Hunter) - not Orange man Bad who had no dealings with them despite our media shouting it from rooftops for many years.

One interesting and perhaps useful idea from your post @NuttBoxer is what can we do as individuals to try to change the situation here. I'll post a separate thread for this.

Bd6r says

At the same time, the GPS system is disabled.

How do you disable the GPS system? GPS is strictly satellites and on-plane equipment. Nothing for the Russians to disable at the airport. Perhaps the author meant ILS. An ILS (Instrument Landing System) is used for precision approaches and incorporates glide path and distance guidance. ILS is ground based at the airport itself. Also, that NDB (non-directional beacon) you mentioned is a very old and very primitive system. NDB cannot be used for a precision landing approach, and thus any airport approach based on NDB would be in high visibility conditions where the pilot could see the ground. Also, aircraft like the Tu-154 have radar altimeters that indicate height above the ground, as well as regular altimeters that display height above sea level, and the pilots know the airport elevation.

Maybe the Russians faked an ILS (or equivalent) away from the airport, but no way this would work using fake NDBs. Even so, if the pilots do not see the runway when 100 ft above the ground (indicated altitude), they go around. So the fake place would need to have a terrain elevation 100 ft above the airport's elevation. And even then the radar altimeter would warn loudly are less than 100 ft above the dirt.

Bd6r says

08:38:45 A Russian aircraft passes the NDB of the beacon at a distance of 6.1 km, begins to aim at false targets of the NDB signal of the beacon 2.1 km from the runway and 150 m below the airport level.

Now this is total bunk. If they moved the NDB to a location 2.1 km away to a place with an elevation 150 meters below the airport, the pilots would just be that much higher above the ground when they aborted the approach. And that is if NDB is a mistranslation and it really was an advanced ILS system.

HeadSet says

mistranslation

Very likely, this is translation from polish to russian to english

mostly reader says

richwicks says

My "worldview", as you call it, is that the US Federal government is run by a bunch of stupid assholes that continually lie to the US public, about literally everything.

Nice diversion, but no. That "Western Ukraine just needs to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine" horseshit,

No, they don't need to do "just" that. I get so sick of your strawmen.

Russia has said NATO entering Ukraine is an existential threat, and has been saying this for over 8 years. They don't care about people in the Donbass, but it's good propaganda for them to justify the war because Russians can be made to care about the people in the Donbass.

The goal of the United States is to weaken Russian both economically and militarily. Europe however has dependency on Russian oil and natural gas for energy, so time is on their side. The US is more than willing to supply energy at exorbitant prices though and has the public relations power to convince stupid Europeans that they are doing the right thing paying 3-4 times the price for energy.

The goal of Russia WAS to cooperate with Europe to sell commodities, but Europe is a puppet of the United States, and finally Russia is realizing it's not worthwhile to attempt to work with them. It's not like Europe or the United States produces anything Russia needs, they are basically entirely self sufficient at this point. Europe and the United States are not.

Time will tell regardless.

richwicks says

No, they don't need to do "just" that. I get so sick of your strawmen.

"I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine." - this is your exact quote. Sure, I added "just", but it seems just. The entire assertion about Western Ukraine being the aggressor is invalid. Your verbal diarrhea of propagandist cliches (Rashist style) does nothing to support that assertion and demonstrates that you can't hold a coherent thought.

In short - cry me a river.

__
Edit, so that I don't have to get up twice:

richwicks says

The goal of the United States is to weaken Russian both economically and militarily.

It wasn't. It is now, and Russia has no one to blame but itself. You know what it means when they start cracking jokes about bare-chested Putin at the G7 table: he's been written off.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

No, they don't need to do "just" that. I get so sick of your strawmen.

"I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine." - this is your exact quote.

Yes, but you claimed I said:

richwicks says

mostly reader says

richwicks says

My "worldview", as you call it, is that the US Federal government is run by a bunch of stupid assholes that continually lie to the US public, about literally everything.

Nice diversion, but no. That "Western Ukraine just needs to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine" horseshit,

No, they don't need to do "just" that. I get so sick of your strawmen.

Russia has said NATO entering Ukraine is an existential threat, and has been saying this for over 8 years. They don't care about people in the Donbass, but it's good propaganda for them to justify the war because Russians can be made to care about the people in the Donbass.

All you do is argue and lie. It's tiresome.

What do you think the goals are of Russia attacking Ukraine? What is their military objective? I think it's primarily to keep NATO out. Current US propaganda claims that Russia is trying to rebuild the USSR, a nation that already has 11 timezones to deal with. They could have easily taken over Georgia, and didn't.

I think there's going to be mission creep now. I expect they want to kick the Americans out, permanently. Russia has already put a bunch of Zionists firmly under their thumb for the last 20 years, I suspect they will do the same with Ihor Kolomoyskyi - they have specifically targeted some of his interests.

It's icing on the cake the Europe itself is rejecting Russian oil, this may have been a goal of the United States - to weaken Europe. It's going to weaken the United States - the US is exporting oil from their strategic reserve to Europe now. It's fucking crazy. This has placed Venezuela and Iran in an improved position, as well as Russia itself. I can't decide if the American leadership is this fucking stupid, if there's some sort of master grand strategy that isn't apparent, of if American leadership is intentionally destroying the west. NONE of what the US is doing is good for anybody in the West, except for perhaps a few very powerful oligarchs. India and China now are buying energy at a lower cost than the Western world does.

The US kept poking the bear, Russia is economically independent, they don't need ANYTHING from Europe or the United States. SHOULD I believe the rhetoric of China, China has allied itself with Russia - it's not as if the US will weaken them so China can say whatever it wants and do whatever it wants. India and Pakistan have allied themselves with Russia at least in this effort because they don't want famine.

WE may be in famine. WE might be eating bugs this time next year.

Time will tell.

All Ukraine had to do was agree to some pretty reasonable demands, and then even if Russia was lying about why they attacked Ukraine, they wouldn't have any excuse at least. They could have had all their propaganda defanged.

All the US media does is lie, lie, and lie. They lie constantly. I'm so fucking sick of it but worse than that, I'm sick of stupid people believing it. Those fuckers trap us all.