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2nd Amendment Discussion


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2018 Feb 17, 11:51am   244,278 views  1,279 comments

by CajunSteve   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

With all the talk about the school shootings, let's take a look at what the 2nd Amendment actually says:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Couple things to note in there:

1. The specific mention of a militia being the reason for the need to bear arms.
2. The 2nd Amendment never mentions the word gun at all.

So, what exactly is the definition of "arms"?

In 1755 Dr. Johnson’s Dictionary of the English Language was first published. It defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.”

Weapons of offence would seem to include pretty much anything and everything, from knives to nuclear weapons. The US has already seen fit to ban some weapons of offence so the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.

So it then becomes a question of which weapons should be banned, which should be strictly regulated, and which should be lightly regulated or not at all. Like anything else, we should weigh an individual's right with society's right. When looked at in that manner, it becomes very difficult to justify why fully automatic or semi automatic rifles should be allowed. What purpose do they serve an individual? And why would that purpose outweigh the extreme damage those weapons have cased society??

Patrick thinks the Chamber of Commerce is the worst organization, and he may be correct, but the NRA is not far behind.



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899   HeadSet   2022 Dec 15, 9:11am  

Patrick says

I was shocked when I first found out that for centuries, Catholic laypeople were not allowed to read the bible. Only priests were allowed to read it.

The lay people were illiterates in their own language, let alone being able to read Latin.
900   NuttBoxer   2022 Dec 15, 9:43am  

Ordered a Robinson Armament for .300 blk. Hoping to take possession before the SBR law changes, or that the change gets struck down. Fired one of these in Nevada, and liked it much better than the AR-15.
901   richwicks   2022 Dec 15, 10:25am  

HeadSet says

Patrick says


I was shocked when I first found out that for centuries, Catholic laypeople were not allowed to read the bible. Only priests were allowed to read it.

The lay people were illiterates in their own language, let alone being able to read Latin.

As soon as the Gutenberg press was created and the bible was translated into the local languages, literacy took off. It's like the Internet. When I was a kid, hardly anybody knew how to use a computer, even when I was a young adult, but as soon as the Internet became widely available, everybody learned how to use one.
902   AmericanKulak   2022 Dec 15, 10:30am  

Patrick says


I was shocked when I first found out that for centuries, Catholic laypeople were not allowed to read the bible. Only priests were allowed to read it.

Probably half of all Catholic Priests were functionally illiterate in both Latin and Native Tongue going into the 1700s. They memorized the mass and some sacraments.

Protestantism really changed the face of Europe; it was a religion that required literacy, so the Presbyterian Scots were the first European Nation to have mandatory public schools once a week, to teach basic literacy.

That's also the reason the Scots became incredibly wealthy and dominated British Commerce and Government for centuries. In the mid 1800s, the literacy rate in England was about 50%, in Scotland it had been over 80% for centuries - and in the Colonies as well.

Having a religion where members are all but required to be literate to read the Book is a big advantage.
903   HeadSet   2022 Dec 15, 11:11am  

AmericanKulak says

Having a religion where members are all but required to be literate to read the Book is a big advantage.

Interesting. That may help explain why USA and Canada are well off, and all south of the Rio Grande are basket cases.
904   RWSGFY   2022 Dec 15, 4:37pm  

Some of Oregon's trans and queer gun supporters are worried that a new state law will prevent them from buying firearms.

The law, Measure 114, grants county sheriffs and police chiefs discretion to determine who qualifies to purchase a firearm under a new permit-to-purchase program.

But Measure 114 lacks criteria clearly defining what disqualifies applicants, details on what makes someone a threat and what data can be used by law enforcement in making that decision. That's a problem for activists who have critiqued law enforcement....


https://www.npr.org/2022/12/15/1140713659/oregons-lgbtq-community-worries-that-a-new-law-will-keep-them-from-obtaining-gun

906   PeopleUnited   2022 Dec 16, 1:17am  

Implication: politicians don’t trust the people, therefore they seek to control them like a plantation owner.
908   DD214   2022 Dec 18, 7:17am  


912   AmericanKulak   2023 Jan 15, 8:10pm  

It's amazing how people can interpret the word "Bear" to mean "Locked Up in a Facility."

"I bear the kayak to portage between rivers" doesn't mean I locked up the kayak in a storage unit.
913   Patrick   2023 Jan 17, 8:13am  

https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1615040978469150720?ref_src=patrick.net


Joe Biden wants to "ban the number of bullets that can go in a magazine" 🤔
914   NuttBoxer   2023 Jan 17, 10:47pm  

ATF just made felons out of 40 million Americans with their reclassification of pistol braced guns as SBR's. Now I have to change my order to avoid filling out a Form 1 or 4...
915   HeadSet   2023 Jan 18, 9:36am  

NuttBoxer says

ATF just made felons out of 40 million Americans with their reclassification of pistol braced guns as SBR's.

What if they made the guns smooth bore? Then the "rifle" classification part could not apply.
916   NuttBoxer   2023 Jan 18, 10:12am  

Or just buy a pistol cap. That's what I was offered to allow my gun to still be purchased legally.
917   Patrick   2023 Jan 18, 4:30pm  

https://jpfo.org/articles-2023/shetl-mentality2.htm


Not just for years but for decades I have been perplexed by the fact that American Jews are overwhelmingly anti-gun. Now they are not just indifferent to guns as they were when I was growing up 60 years ago, but today they are genuinely hostile to them. They are both in leadership positions of the movement to ban private ownership of all firearms as well as at the grass-roots level individually in favor of gun bans by over 10 to 1. After much thought I have arrived at what appears to be the explanation for this cultural aversion to firearms by most American Jews, and since I have never seen anything like this explanation in print anywhere, I thought it worth writing the following essay describing what for want of a better term I refer to as "the shtetl mentality." ...

Before the existence of the state of Israel ever since the diaspora Jews have lived in small areas of other people's countries. Among American Jews this now typically means great grandparents who lived in shtetls or ghettos, segregated, isolated rural or urban areas in Europe. One of the major hazards of this situation was that occasionally a few Cossacks would get drunk, ride over to the nearest shtetl, rape a few women, maybe murder a man who protested rather than begging for his life and then ride off into the sunset, big fun... for the Cossacks.

It had to be inescapably clear to these Jews that there were dozens if not hundreds of them, able-bodied and sober, surely a match for 8 or 10 drunk Cossacks. It would have been easy, even for people not trained in arms, to kill them and bury them someplace, but it is obvious why they did not. If they had done so, all the Cossacks would have come to the shtetl fully armed for battle. They would have massacred every Jew in this shtetl and every other one within 100 versts. Defense was just not an option, not a survival trait. The women raped and the men murdered had to be seen as the price Jews paid for living, for surviving as a people. Since no Jew ever even remotely considered the possibility that without some major provocation someday the Cossacks would try to kill them all, it seemed like a reasonable if awful compromise.

Such a compromise must have taken a devastating and horrific psychological toll on the people forced to make it. Sooner or later someone among our traumatized ancestors had to make the following rationalization to justify this situation: "We are better than those people because they are violent and we are not. They handle weapons, and we do not." In order to maintain self-respect people in such a condition had to explain it as the result of something that made them better than their oppressors. This was the notion that they voluntarily (rather than of necessity as was the actual case) eschewed the use of weapons of any sort because they understood that violence was evil while their tormentors did not. It was the key to survival, self-respect and eventually the shtetl mentality which American Jews, far removed from the shtetl, still carry with them despite the fact that it has long since lost its utility. ...

The Jews who remained in Europe lived through the Holocaust. This caused the ones who survived and emigrated to Israel to see that the rules had changed. They saw that not all violence was wrong, that violence could be used to preserve the Jewish people and that the defensive use of weapons was necessary for the survival of the group. This led to a greater acceptance of individual use of weapons for personal defense. American Jews only observed this from afar. They did not live it so they did not adopt this new insight as valid for themselves even if most grudgingly accepted it as necessary for Israeli Jews.

The shtetl mentality has led to the Jewish Plan A for what to do in case seriously bad things begin to happen to Jews in America. Under such circumstances Jewish leaders plan to yell "Holocaust" as loudly as they can. They plan to use their not insubstantial resources and assets in the media to do this in hopes that the rest of Americans will rise and protect them from whatever new Cossacks have emerged. While this is a most reasonable Plan A, the fact that if this fails there is no Plan B is at the heart of what is foolish and stupid about the shtetl mentality. We have learned, or we should have learned, that there always must be a Plan B, a Plan B based on the notion that for a Jew the phrase "assault rifle" is a misnomer. The correct term, once the shtetl mentality has been transcended, is "Jewish defense rifle."
918   NuttBoxer   2023 Jan 18, 9:19pm  

Found out that the stock I wanted on my gun is made by Gearhead Works. They appear to be a bit backed up on orders though...
922   Eric Holder   2023 Jan 27, 6:55pm  

HeadSet says

NuttBoxer says


ATF just made felons out of 40 million Americans with their reclassification of pistol braced guns as SBR's.

What if they made the guns smooth bore? Then the "rifle" classification part could not apply.


SBS is not much legally different from a SBR. Both are NFA items.
923   Eric Holder   2023 Jan 27, 6:59pm  

NuttBoxer says

ATF just made felons out of 40 million Americans with their reclassification of pistol braced guns as SBR's. Now I have to change my order to avoid filling out a Form 1 or 4...


It was an open secret that nobody was planning to use that brace as a brace...

PS. The whole SBR thing is stupid, because it's basically a rudiment which was left in the NFA after pistols were taken out during negotiations. The category was created to plug a loophole in pistol prohibition, but once much more concelable pistols were excluded it stopped making any sense to have SBRs as NFA items. But here we are.
924   thenuttyneutron   2023 Jan 27, 6:59pm  

PSA

The ATF's pistol brace rule is expected to be published on January 31, 2023. Many people own these currently legal firearms. That will no longer be the case once the new rule is published. There are a few options listed in the rule to cure the problem. The "least" bad option is to file the NFA paper work needed to get the tax stamp and thus regain compliance with the law.

I do have serious doubts that this rule will survive the lawsuits that are surely going to be filed against AG Garland. If the 5th Circuit gets it first, I have no doubt that they will call the new rule unconstitutional and toss it out.
925   thenuttyneutron   2023 Jan 27, 7:06pm  

Eric Holder says


It was an open secret that nobody was planning to use that brace as a brace...


That does not matter one bit. The ATF rendered an opinion about 10 years ago that a pistol brace on an AR pistol did not make it a SBR. Millions of people used this opinion to make purchasing decisions. I am one of them. I bought my AR pistol in good faith. I filled out the 4473 as required at the FFL (Scheels).

The problem here is that the definition of a SBR and what the braces were being sold as and marketed as did not line up with the law. If the manufacturer designs and intends for the brace to be wrapped around your arm and people instead shoulder it, this does not "redesign" it.

I don't understand why SBRs are still even a thing after the original regulation on pistols in draft copies of the NFA were removed. The SBR language was adopted simply to prevent people from making "pistols" out of long guns. There is also the "in common use" issue. Weapons that are in common use are protected by the 2A. This is well established case law.
926   Eric Holder   2023 Jan 27, 7:07pm  

thenuttyneutron says

Eric Holder says

It was an open secret that nobody was planning to use that brace as a brace...

That does not matter one bit


No disagreement there. But still.
927   thenuttyneutron   2023 Jan 27, 7:10pm  

Fuck Garland's plan up. I hope that the ATF gets 30 million submissions for the free tax stamp. There are currently only 8 people that process them. If the ATF can get through 220,000 comments on the proposed rule in 6 months, I am sure they would love the opportunity to show us that they can work through 30 million forms in 15 months. I have waited 15 months for all of my other NFA items.

Bury them in their own shit. Ohh and cut their funding by 90% to get their budgeted FTE down to 20 people!
928   RWSGFY   2023 Jan 28, 5:03pm  

Yes, even San Francisco has to follow the Constitution!

Under intense and unrelenting pressure from CRPA, the San Francisco County Sheriff’s Office today issued its first CCW permit in many years. Last June, Sheriff Paul Miyamoto bragged about his defiance of Second Amendment rights, stating proudly that he had “not issued a single concealed carry permit since taking office in January of 2020.” Well, Sheriff, the streak is over!


https://crpa.org/news/blogs/san-francisco-issues-first-ccw-in-years/
929   NuttBoxer   2023 Jan 30, 10:07am  

Eric Holder says

It was an open secret that nobody was planning to use that brace as a brace...


I did. I found the brace very comfortable and natural as part of my stance.
930   NuttBoxer   2023 Jan 30, 10:09am  

thenuttyneutron says

There are a few options listed in the rule to cure the problem. The "least" bad option is to file the NFA paper work needed to get the tax stamp and thus regain compliance with the law.


Or just tell anyone you have it. No one's going door-to-door to check. It's also fairly simple to order a pistol without the brace, then purchase the brace separately, but of course we shouldn't do that..
931   NuttBoxer   2023 Jan 30, 10:17am  

thenuttyneutron says

The problem here is that the definition of a SBR and what the braces were being sold as and marketed as did not line up with the law. If the manufacturer designs and intends for the brace to be wrapped around your arm and people instead shoulder it, this does not "redesign" it.


You can do both. Look at Robinson Armament XCR's.
933   Patrick   2023 Feb 7, 9:17pm  

https://www.ammoland.com/2023/02/judge-rules-ban-on-gun-possession-for-marijuana-users-unconstitutional/


The Court found the prohibition on the possession of firearms as an unlawful user of marijuana was unconstitutional because there is no historical tradition of removing the right to keep and bear arms from people who use intoxicating substances. Here is a summation of the Court order. From the order, p. 1:

Before the Court is Defendant Jared Michael Harrison’s Motion to Dismiss the Indictment (Dkt. 17), which argues that the statute he is charged with violating, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(3), is unconstitutionally vague, in violation of the Due Process Clause, and unconstitutionally infringes upon his fundamental right to possess a firearm, in violation of the Second Amendment. For the reasons given below, the motion is GRANTED. ...

In short, there is no historical tradition of banning the right to keep and bear arms simply because a person uses intoxicating substances. The conclusion of the court is clear. From the order:

Because the Court concludes that 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(3) violates Harrison’s Second Amendment right to possess a firearm, the Court declines to reach Harrison’s vagueness claim. The Motion to Dismiss the Indictment is GRANTED. Accordingly, the Indictment is DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE.

IT IS SO ORDERED this 3rd day of February 2023.

The court noted the late provenance of the ban, which did not occur until 1986. This shows how the slippery slope works in practice.
934   FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut   2023 Feb 8, 8:05am  

Patrick says

https://www.ammoland.com/2023/02/judge-rules-ban-on-gun-possession-for-marijuana-users-unconstitutional/



The Court found the prohibition on the possession of firearms as an unlawful user of marijuana was unconstitutional because there is no historical tradition of removing the right to keep and bear arms from people who use intoxicating substances. Here is a summation of the Court order. From the order, p. 1:


Before the Court is Defendant Jared Michael Harrison’s Motion to Dismiss the Indictment (Dkt. 17), which argues that the statute he is charged with violating, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(3), is unconstitutionally vague, in violation of the Due Process Clause, and unconstitutionally infringes upon his fundamental right to possess a firearm, in violation of the Second Amendment. For...


That's good news. Fucking government always wants to find ways to take away guns. The fact that they take gun ownership right away from people who committed crimes is ridiculous IMO. Because it's fucking government, once they have a way to confiscate guns, they'll find a way to turn all of us into criminals to take our rights away. Republicans don't do shit about it either, they are just as faggy self serving cunts as Democrats when it comes to gun control.
937   Patrick   2023 Feb 13, 7:53pm  

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2023/02/13/the-new-york-times-has-an-embarrassing-epiphany-about-gun-free-zones-n1670169


We’ve all seen signs announcing a particular place is a “gun-free zone.” While these signs are supposed to reduce gun violence by informing would-be shooters that their firearms aren’t welcome on the site, the reality is that they are instead beacons alerting criminals to soft targets.

And it looks like the New York Times may have finally figured that out. After a murder took place in Times Square on Thursday night, the paper openly questioned why posted signs banning guns from the area didn’t stop the violence. “The shooting was the first since the creation of the expansive, signposted zone, the police said in a statement, and it immediately renewed questions about whether such a designation can truly protect the area,” the so-called paper of record reported.
938   NuttBoxer   2023 Feb 14, 10:37am  

That poem needs to be on the front page of something, fucking AWESOME!!

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