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Islam and Violence


 invite response                
2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   610,141 views  2,856 comments

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Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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1917   gabbar   2023 Jul 1, 9:11am  

Booger says

https://poal.co/s/AskPoal/650454

Maybe the Jews have a plan to make all non-Jews anti-Islam, over the long term, since Muslims will always be against Jews?
1918   Patrick   2023 Jul 1, 9:54am  

As Jews are a small minority everywhere outside Israel, I can see that it is in the interest of Jews to import many other minorities so that Jews don't stand out so much as a target. I don't know to what degree this actually happens, though.

Islam is inherently very anti-Jewish, right in the Koran. But I don't think Jews dislike Islam all that much, not that I've heard, anyway. Jews seem more hostile to Christianity than to Islam, but maybe that's just my perspective from living in the US.

Religions generally don't like each other, because if one is true the other must be false.
1920   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 10:06am  

gabbar says


Maybe the Jews have a plan to make all non-Jews anti-Islam, over the long term, since Muslims will always be against Jews?


@gabbar - Islamic nations have historically, for over 1000 years, been a safe haven for Jewish people. Jewish people and Muslims fought side by side against Christians during the Crusades to defend their cities and towns. During the Inquisition, Jewish people were the main targets, and fleeing to the Middle East, was a good idea to do. When Spain went from being Muslim to Christian, the Muslims evacuated the Jewish population - the Sephardic population.

Zionists aren't really Jewish at all. They are just a mafia group with a bunch of useful idiots. They don't give a shit about Jewish people. Jewish people are just their shield. Accuse Epstein of a crime, or how about Bernie Madoff, or Sam Bankman Fried? Oh, you just hate Jews - not criminals who happen to be Jews that in the Jewish mafia, you just are anti-Semitic. There's Victoria Nuland, Robert Kagan, Henry Kissinger, how dare you ever criticize these people, after all, they are JEWISH.

That's the game.

When Muslims dare to speak truth to power, you fall for it. Israel is the only nuclear power in Middle East, and you're like "oh the poor Israeli state!" Israel is so fucking powerful, it gets the United States to fight their wars FOR them.

It's not "Jewish people" doing this so much as it is Zionists doing this shit. Zionists, the REAL ones, not the dopes, the real ones, are mafia. It's just organized crime for Jewish people, like the Italian mafia and it's international.
1921   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 10:23am  

richwicks says


gabbar - Islamic nations have historically, for over 1000 years, been a safe haven for Jewish people. Jewish people and Muslims fought side by side against Christians during the Crusades to defend their cities and towns. During the Inquisition, Jewish people were the main targets, and fleeing to the Middle East, was a good idea to do. When Spain went from being Muslim to Christian, the Muslims evacuated the Jewish population - the Sephardic population.

Somewhat incorrect. It's on and off, just like Eurotolerance is on and off.

Like all places and times, when things get back, people find a scapegoat responsible, when things are going well, there's mostly good vibes.

There were plenty of anti-Jewish riots in the 19th and early 20th Centuries before the creation of Israel, from Egypt to Iraq. Just as there were anti-Christian pograms (such as the Jeddah Massacre of 1858), anti-Druze pograms (going back ~1000 years), anti-Coptic programs (Muslim Brotherhood has a particular hardon for Copts), etc. in the Middle East. The Farhud in 1941 Iraq, being a famous example, or the Damascus Riots of 1840.

The "Everything was hunky dory until Israel" is nonsense.

In fact, after the creation of Israel Jews were expelled by Arabs in the many hundreds of thousands. HALF of the Jews in Israel are descended from those expelled Jews. The first act of Iraq and Algeria upon independence was to expell all the Jews (and of course politicians and friends confiscated all property).
https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/the-expulsion-of-jews-from-arab-countries-and-iran--an-untold-history

Something to keep in mind when people say "They can just return to the land of their origin".

The great news is that the Arab World is re-evaluating the Arab-Jewish relationship led by the UAE normalizing relations with Israel, to much gnashing of the teeth of regional Dictators and Haters worldwide.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/uae-plans-long-term-economic-ties-with-israel-despite-political-strains-2023-04-03/

richwicks says


Zionists aren't really Jewish at all.

Absolutely Incorrect.

George Soros is anti-Zionist, for example. He donates to ISM, Indymedia, and all kinds of anti-Zionist groups.
richwicks says


When Muslims dare to speak truth to power, you fall for it. Israel is the only nuclear power in Middle East, and you're like "oh the poor Israeli state!" Israel is so fucking powerful, it gets the United States to fight their wars FOR them.

Which war was that?

I remember Saddam invading Kuwait over side drilling, and the US asked Israel to stay out. As a distraction, Saddam terror bombed with Scuds at Israel, and Israel still stayed out when the US asked them to though they had every right to respond.

Pakistan has nukes with help from North Korea, and Saudi Arabia financed Pakistan's program and missile development to carry the warhead.

Remember, when you're dealing with Far Leftists, Arab Socialists, and EuroSocialists everything is the fault of Israel.

The fact is, conflicts in the Middle East have the same causes they've always had, long before Israel: Sunni vs. Shi'a, Arab vs. Persian, Damascus vs. Cairo, Turks vs. Arabs, Kurds vs. Everybody. The worst war in the middle East recently was a Sunni/Arab vs. Shia'/Persian Iran-Iraq War that was started over the Shatt al-Arab waterway control by Saddam Hussein, not because of "Israel". Though I'm sure some idiot has tried to find some Sekrit Jew behind the whole thing.
1922   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 10:26am  

By the way @richwicks, and this isn't personal, but an observation, you have a massive boner for Israel.

Please don't say that you're just mentioning it, or that you don't care, or that I shouldn't refute your presentations; you mention Israel and Zionists all the time in all kinds of threads.

No matter how much of a full spectrum Dirty Red Bastard somebody is, be it Hedges or Waters or whomever, if they have that "One position" that you agree with, surprisingly, you think they're the best thing since sliced bread.

Just admit it, man.
1923   gabbar   2023 Jul 1, 11:17am  

richwicks says

Zionists aren't really Jewish at all.

Mayor of my city calls himself a Zionist and he is a Jew, an example. How is this right?
1924   Blue   2023 Jul 1, 11:27am  

BayArea says

Go Poland

Its a small country leave them alone.
1925   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 11:36am  

Blue says


Its a small country leave them alone.

Poland not small, Poland stronk. I love Poland.

Did you ever read about Witold Pileski? That guy was a real life Rambo, he lived as a guerilla for years, fighting all kinds of Socialists, shot multiple times, smuggled himself into death camps to get evidence, ambushed Nazis and Soviets left and right.

Sabaton made a song about him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6ARLOgsbA
1926   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 11:49am  

AmericanKulak says


By the way richwicks, and this isn't personal, but an observation, you have a massive boner for Israel.

Please don't say that you're just mentioning it, or that you don't care, or that I shouldn't refute your presentations; you mention Israel and Zionists all the time in all kinds of threads.


What do you mean I have a "boner for Israel"? That would imply I love it or am attracted to it.

The US has adopted all the treachery and dishonesty of Israel in the last 40 years. They lie about being attacked, they setup false flags, they claim victim-hood constantly when they are the victimizers - and I wouldn't mind that PROVIDED

1) my nation wasn't emulating this disgusting subhuman behavior
2) my nation wasn't paying for them to exist.

AmericanKulak says


No matter how much of a full spectrum Dirty Red Bastard somebody is, be it Hedges or Waters or whomever, if they have that "One position" that you agree with, surprisingly, you think they're the best thing since sliced bread.


Look, I have a concept of nuance. There's shitty people that are out there, but there are absolutely worthless people out there as well.

I can say a FEW good things about Hedges, but I can't say a single good thing about Benjamin Netanyahu. If you can think of ONE, you let me know. He's just as corrupt and criminal as Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Mitt Romney, John McCain, George W. Bush, John Kerry, Al Gore....... These people aren't merely worthless, they are damaging - they do nothing good, and they ONLY do bad.

Israel started with the model of having the worst, most criminal scumbags rise to the top. The 7th prime minister murdered Count Bernadotte to prevent the end of violence, because the end of violence would stall Israeli expansion. That was Yitzhak Shamir when he was part of the power structure of Lehi.

They are just like democrats, total hypocrites. These are the shitheads that said "once a terrorist, always a terrorist!", just like Hillary Clinton says "nobody is above the law!". Well Shamir is a terrorist and died as one, and Clinton is above the law. Our association with Israel has poisoned this entire nation. Now we have their values and ethics, which is no values and no ethics.

People bitch about the hypocrisy of the Democrats and our legal system and our military, and they don't know what the source is from. We have followed in the footsteps of Israel - "though deception we do war" - who do you think the war is against? It's against us. Israel has the same fucking awful stupid moronic propaganda system the US has now, but they had it 30 years ago. The US is the 2nd most propagandized nation in the west, Israel is #1.

Israel has always engaged in "pre-emptive war" - then Bush sold this idea to the US. WHO ELSE DOES THIS on the planet? The US and Israel - that's it. Our downfall is that we EVER supported Israel. They are a nation of Zionists, which is nothing more than like having a nation founded and controlled by the Italian mafia. Al Capones run Israel.

Israel had ONE PM I respected, Yitzhak Rabin - he was murdered for going against the mafia. The goal is continual unending conflict and expansion. He was killed because he tried to end the endless war. Same reason Trump is despised.

Israel is expanding into the south of Syria, that is PART of the reason the US went to war, eventually they will take it over, they will take over the entire West Bank, they will retake Gaza, then they will start expanding into Jordan and Egypt. They'll never stop and I get to pay for it all! yay.

They are an apartheid, racist nation run by lunatics that are armed with nuclear weaponry.
1927   Patrick   2023 Jul 1, 1:41pm  

AmericanKulak says


Did you ever read about Witold Pileski? That guy was a real life Rambo, he lived as a guerilla for years, fighting all kinds of Socialists, shot multiple times, smuggled himself into death camps to get evidence, ambushed Nazis and Soviets left and right.


Thanks, didn't know about him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki

Fucking communists shot him in 1948.
1928   gabbar   2023 Jul 1, 3:18pm  

If there was/is no Israel, the Muslims would be a bigger problem. Israel serves like a firewall. Per my Muslim friends, who detest Israel and Jews, US is a very powerful community and they run the US.
1929   gabbar   2023 Jul 1, 3:23pm  

Patrick says


As Jews are a small minority everywhere outside Israel, I can see that it is in the interest of Jews to import many other minorities so that Jews don't stand out so much as a target. I don't know to what degree this actually happens, though.

THIS. The importation of Muslims is how this is happening.
1930   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 3:24pm  

gabbar says


If there was/is no Israel, the Muslims would be a bigger problem. Israel serves like a firewall. Per my Muslim friends, who detest Israel and Jews, US is a very powerful community and they run the US.


The only reason Muslims are a problem is our government, strangely, invites them into our own population, after bombing them for decades.

Leave them alone, isolate them, no problem. Different culture, let economics determine who is the winner.

IF we just left them alone and competed in economics, I'm entirely certain we'd win, but instead we spend trillions of dollars to steal their resources that we don't even need so some asshole company can benefit from it. Just leave them alone.

The US could have been a breakaway civilization and we largely were. If the dickheads that run this nation cared about this nation, they would have just left the rest of the world behind and let them follow us, IF they wished.
1931   gabbar   2023 Jul 1, 3:27pm  

richwicks says


Leave them alone, isolate them, no problem. Different culture, let economics determine who is the winner.

IF we just left them alone and competed in economics, I'm entirely certain we'd win, but instead we spend trillions of dollars to steal their resources that we don't even need so some asshole company can benefit from it. Just leave them alone.

Leaving them alone is not a good option. Competing on just economics is not a smart option. Unfortunately, their resources had to stolen! This is how it is. This is the world we live in. Not nice but its not about being nice at all.
1932   Blue   2023 Jul 1, 5:05pm  

gabbar says


Patrick says


As Jews are a small minority everywhere outside Israel, I can see that it is in the interest of Jews to import many other minorities so that Jews don't stand out so much as a target. I don't know to what degree this actually happens, though.

THIS. The importation of Muslims is how this is happening.


I seriously doubt, its all about bunch of clueless stupids running the governments and have no idea of what they are doing. Look Joe, even if he stole few mils, he opened the whole boarder to ruin the country for long after he is gone, let demons kill the culture etc. and run the drams to hide his crimes. Its not the money, that is not even a peanut. Its all about just bunch of low IQ clueless woke people in wrong places.
1933   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 5:21pm  

gabbar says


Leaving them alone is not a good option. Competing on just economics is not a smart option. Unfortunately, their resources had to stolen! This is how it is. This is the world we live in. Not nice but its not about being nice at all.


What the fucking hell in god's name are you talking about?

The US was energy independent in 2020. Don't you remember that? Why the fuck do we need to steal their resources - for fucking what? We have enough coal to last for 100's of not 1000's of years. We have enough thorium to power this entire country, if we'd just make use of thorium energy, but we don't.

I'm so sick of you short sighted people. We don't fuck around in other countries because we HAVE TO, we have a bunch of lunatics in power that have age old grudges against foreign nations. Victoria Nuland's father got fucked by the USSR, and she had a grudge, THAT'S what we're in a proxy war with Russia. Just execute her. There! Problem solved!

I'm so tired of you dopes that think we have to be parasites on the world. We don't have to be, but you're such a bunch of cowards that don't believe in your own fellow citizens that you think we have to be predators, and pirates, and parasites. No. We don't.

Our golden age was when we were largely independent of the rest of the world. In 1800 people were waking up at 3:00 am to shovel coal into a burner to keep warm, by 1900 we had central heating. We had cars by 1900, radio by then, the dishwasher, the vacuum cleaner, the telephone.

We invented the fucking Internet for god's sakes. Our criminal mistake was sharing technology. Fuck the rest of the world, let them adopt and learn from us IF THEY WANT. All of our dependence on them is entirely artificial. Fuck 'em.

But instead we waste trillions on war, and conflict, that could be used for internal infrastructure and development. The US is now paying for government retirement plans in goddamn Ukraine now. It's so frustrating. We have an infinite amount of money for war, always, but doing anything to fix ANY FUCKING THING in this nation "well, that's expensive"...
1935   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 5:25pm  

richwicks says


The US has adopted all the treachery and dishonesty of Israel in the last 40 years. They lie about being attacked, they setup false flags, they claim victim-hood constantly when they are the victimizers - and I wouldn't mind that PROVIDED

The IDF are so unbelievably soft with the terrorists it's beyond belief, as Colonel Kemp of the British Army confirms.
https://thecjn.ca/news/canada/british-colonel-discusses-why-he-supports-the-idf/

Everywhere ISM and EI is trying to antagonize IDF soldiers all day and all night, using orphans, parents training their kids, to attack and harass them, HOPING that an IDF solider loses his shit on camera. To create problems, not to solve them. Palimedia has been caught time and time again using Syrian War footage and even South African footage from the 80s to try to pretend it happened in Israel.

And then useful idiots like Ryan Dawson repeat their propaganda uncritically, as he's found his Great Humbug.

gabbar says


If there was/is no Israel, the Muslims would be a bigger problem. Israel serves like a firewall. Per my Muslim friends, who detest Israel and Jews, US is a very powerful community and they run the US.

Absolutely. The experience in India is illustrative of this. Muslims simply could not stand being a minority in India, so they created Pakistan; which later split into Pakistan and Bangladesh. In the 1970s, West Pakistan invaded East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and murdered at least a few hundred thousand people.

The Kabul Clan did not want the populous East Pakistan democratically electing non-members of the Kabul Clan.

Probably there are some people who are trying to "Prove" that Kargil/Indo-Pak border is all a ZIOPLOT! along with Kenya, Nigeria, Sudan, Sri Lanka, Burma/Myanmar, etc. Anywhere Islam has a fault line with another Civilization, be it Western, Indian/Hindu, Buddhist, Chinese, etc. there's almost constant warfare.

As another poster mentioned, the Arabstinians are happy to take aid money (for their ruling class) from Saddam or the CCP, regardless if they attack (other) Muslims.

richwicks says


Israel has always engaged in "pre-emptive war" - then Bush sold this idea to the US. WHO ELSE DOES THIS on the planet? The US and Israel - that's it. Our downfall is that we EVER supported Israel. They are a nation of Zionists, which is nothing more than like having a nation founded and controlled by the Italian mafia. Al Capones run Israel.


Which one? The 1947 invasion by 5 Arab Countries when the British suddenly withdrew, leaving all their weapons and outposts deliberately in the hand of Arabs? Or the 1973 Yom Kippur War? Or in 1967 the week after Nasser visited all the Egyptian bases in the Sinai and talked about the impending invasion, with the aircraft lined up for an easy sortie and all the SOVIET-Supplied armor lined up in columns to begin a movement to contact ? When Saddam invaded Kuwait or Iran? When Assad "intervened" in Lebanon to ensure a puppet government? When the Pakistanis occupied neutral zones in Kargil? Did Putin announce to Zelensky hours in advance of invading Ukraine?

Israel is in a way an outpost state, that collects a lot of bullets that would otherwise go West. All one needs to do is look around the periphery - including attacks in Russia - of the Arab World to realize who the aggressor is.
1936   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 5:27pm  

AmericanKulak says


Everywhere ISM and EI is trying to antagonize IDF soldiers all day and all night, using orphans, parents training their kids, to attack and harass them, HOPING that an IDF solider loses his shit on camera. To create problems, not to solve them. Palimedia has been caught time and time again using Syrian War footage and even South African footage from the 80s to try to pretend it happened in Israel.

And then useful idiots like Ryan Dawson repeat their propaganda uncritically, as he's found his Great Humbug.


You don't understand where I'm coming from here.

I don't give a shit, except I'm being forced to pay for it. Israel is a country with nuclear weapons, we shouldn't be giving them any fucking money at all.

Those assholes can work it out among themselves. I don't care. This isn't about morality at all, it's just a bunch of stupid shitheads arguing about some fictional fucking book and it's updates - who cares? The Jewish claim on the land is that their Gawd gave them their land, and THEN KICKED THEM OUT, and promised to give them the land back when the Messiah returned, which he never did, according to THEM. These are merely criminals, using religion to justify their crimes. Steal a shitload of land, maybe some houses, oh, now you can sell it.

AmericanKulak says


Absolutely. The experience in India is illustrative of this. Muslims simply could not stand being a minority in India, so they created Pakistan; which later split into Pakistan and Bangladesh. In the 1970s


The BRITISH broke up India into Muslim and Hindu when they lost control of India. Who gives a shit? Pakistan and India can work out their problems. We don't need to be involved and shouldn't be involved.
1937   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 5:29pm  

richwicks says


I don't give a shit, except I'm being forced to pay for it. Israel is a country with nuclear weapons, we shouldn't be giving them any fucking money at all.

$3-4B out of Trillions. Far, far, far more money is wasted on the Department of Ed, HUD, Civil Rights, etc. than Israel. Unlike the many other bullshit programs that spend money on DIE/DEI, or mating muttonbird research, or calculating twerks per minute vs. bullets shot per weekend in Chicago, the $3-4B almost all goes directly to supporting high paying aerospace jobs across the US - particularly Texas and Calfornia.

I agree - the aid should not be given. But focusing on the issue when there are far more egregious sources of deliberate fraud in far greater amounts is strange to me.
1938   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 5:32pm  

richwicks says


The BRITISH broke up India into Muslim and Hindu when they lost control of India. Who gives a shit? Pakistan and India can work out their problems. We don't need to be involved and shouldn't be involved.

Why don't you complain about the far bloodier wars and borders and terrorism in Indo-Pak? Why the focus on Israel?

We give plenty in aid and sweetheart trade and outsourcings deals to both Pakistan and India. In fact, A.Q. Khan flew back and forth to North Korea with nuclear secrets & research gear on US-provided C-130s.

Why don't the Israel-obsessed Bitchute and Truthdig Influencers. have anything to say about that far bloodier, far rougher conflict? Because, as Orwell said, they're the Pacificist type, always worried about the West/West-ish countries are up to, not concerned with the brutality of non-Westerners.

Interestingly, they do have a lot of to say about the Houthi, but then again, given the outlets that actually pay for their writing like MintPress News, Globalresearch.ca, and some others, we know who is paying.
1939   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 5:37pm  

AmericanKulak says


$3-4B out of Trillions. Far, far, far more money is wasted on the Department of Ed, HUD, Civil Rights, etc. than Israel. Unlike the many other bullshit programs that spend money on DIE/DEI


Dude, we don't just pay for Israel in terms of "aid", we fucking go to war for them. That's what Syria was PARTIALLY about, that and Genie Enegy.

Just get the the fuck out.

Think I like the DOE, HUD, or any of that bullshit? No, I don't, but nobody pays attention to it. It's ENTIRELY unconstitutional, but nobody seems to fucking spend 10 minutes to read the Constitution. I live in a world of worms and sheep, and cattle, but not people. NOBODY objects.

Oh, the wall between Mexico and the the US - oh that will cost almost 20 billion dollars where can we possibly find the money??? But let's spend 5000 billion dollars on covid relief over a fake pandemic that the sheep and cattle can't recognize is a fake pandemic - where did the money go? Nobody cares. Let's send 100 billion dollars to Ukraine where we KNOW the current president as VP was accepting bribes through his crackwhore son. Who cares?

Nobody has any principles, nobody has any values, nobody has any discernment. I actually had some TWAT on Substack say "there was nothing incriminating on the Hunter Biden laptop". I don't think I'm talking to human beings half the time. If I could just discard all of you, I would, but I'm stuck living among you and it's not pleasant.

You people are so easily controlled, sometimes, I think if I could just become a sociopath, I'd just exploit the lot of you. You're hardly human anyhow.

I'm just so fucking sick of war. Fucking tired of it. The United States was last in peacetime in 1976 to 1980. I'm fucking tired of it. The whole fucking panic when I was a kid was the "Red Menace", where's my goddamned peace dividend? Our government just makes up war after war after war after war and never advantages the United States, but I see Israel getting a boost out of many of them. Golan belongs to Israel now, apparently, Israel gets 75% of the petrochemicals from Iraq now. Joy! What a great expenditure of my tax dollars.



That's "our" leader and protector. You pissed off I point it out? They say it to your face, and you're like "I didn't hear it, they were out of context, that's not what they REALLY meant". OPEN traitors are in congress. Oh well.. "Our leaders" swear support to a FOREIGN FUCKING NATION.

Oh, but it isn't expensive right? If Israel doesn't need our foreign "aid" or our fucking wars, stop giving them fucking aid, and stop fighting fucking wars. Let's find out. Parasite nation.
1940   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 5:37pm  

Orwell noticed it almost a century ago:


But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of the western countries. The Russians, unlike the British, are not blamed for defending themselves by warlike means, and indeed all pacifist propaganda of this type avoids mention of Russia or China. It is not claimed, again, that the Indians should abjure violence in their struggle against the British. Pacifist literature abounds with equivocal remarks which, if they mean anything, appear to mean that statesmen of the type of Hitler are preferable to those of the type of Churchill, and that violence is perhaps excusable if it is violent enough. After the fall of France, the French pacifists, faced by a real choice which their English colleagues have not had to make, mostly went over to the Nazis, and in England there appears to have been some small overlap of membership between the Peace Pledge Union and the Blackshirts. Pacifist writers have written in praise of Carlyle, one of the intellectual fathers of Fascism. All in all it is difficult not to feel that pacifism, as it appears among a section of the intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration for power and successful cruelty. The mistake was made of pinning this emotion to Hitler, but it could easily be retransferred.

https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/

This is one of the greatest paragraphs I've ever read. The whole book is fantastic. I've never forgotten it since the first time I came across it about a decade ago.
1941   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 6:12pm  

"The French government has ordered that this video be taken down from French Twitter accounts."
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1675277833839730688



Translation via this automated account:
https://twitter.com/TranslateMom/status/1675284545011163138
1942   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 6:20pm  

"There's so much gun violence in American Schools, unlike Civilized Europe, hon hon hon"

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7548318/french-schoolboy-paris-gun-teacher/

1943   Patrick   2023 Jul 1, 6:21pm  

$50 says the "unnamed 15-year-old" is also of deliberately unnamed ethnicity.
1944   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 6:41pm  

Patrick says


$50 says the "unnamed 15-year-old" is also of deliberately unnamed ethnicity.


Don't you find it frustratingly ridiculous that our GOVERNMENTS hide the faces of criminals?

The FIB on YouTube doesn't allow comments as they ASK FOR HELP from the public. What bullshit.
1945   Blue   2023 Jul 1, 7:13pm  

richwicks says

Patrick says


$50 says the "unnamed 15-year-old" is also of deliberately unnamed ethnicity.


Don't you find it frustrating ridiculous that our GOVERNMENTS hide the faces of criminals?

The FIB on YouTube doesn't allow comments as they ASK FOR HELP from the public. What bullshit.


https://www.ntd.com/french-teen-who-brandished-fake-gun-on-teacher-has-been-charged_251697.html
The teen told police that it was meant “as a joke,” according to AFP. He was held in police custody for 48 hours before being released with charges that included threatening a teacher and bringing a weapon—even a fake one—to school, France Inter reported.
1946   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 7:48pm  

Blue says

https://www.ntd.com/french-teen-who-brandished-fake-gun-on-teacher-has-been-charged_251697.html
The teen told police that it was meant “as a joke,” according to AFP. He was held in police custody for 48 hours before being released with charges that included threatening a teacher and bringing a weapon—even a fake one—to school, France Inter reported.


If the weapon was a toy prop, this is still an enormous threat. He forced a teacher to make a decision in the context that the teacher may be killed.

Maybe this would be a good thing, if it was used against politicians constantly.
1947   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 1, 8:03pm  

Catholic Priest beaten to death.



Semi-Confirmed; Press is claiming it was just the result of a "Robbery" but it's highly unlikely that given the location and situation it was just a robbery:
https://www.osvnews.com/2023/07/01/religious-leaders-plead-for-dialogue-peace-as-riots-convulse-france/
1948   richwicks   2023 Jul 1, 10:04pm  

AmericanKulak says

Semi-Confirmed; Press is claiming it was just the result of a "Robbery" but it's highly unlikely that given the location and situation it was just a robbery:
https://www.osvnews.com/2023/07/01/religious-leaders-plead-for-dialogue-peace-as-riots-convulse-france/


The purpose of the Roman Catholic Church is societal stabilization. Not to move too far too fast in any direction, I have no sympathy in his failure. The RCC basically is a mafia itself, and I say this as a kid that grew up in the RCC mafia.

If the RCC wants to end something, or promote something, they are still extremely powerful. I wouldn't cross them unless I had a death wish. It's an extremely rich and powerful organization.
1949   AD   2023 Jul 1, 11:59pm  

Patrick says


$50 says the "unnamed 15-year-old" is also of deliberately unnamed ethnicity.


$5000 says that the 15 year old is named Mohammed, Abdullah, or Ali,

or his missing/unknown dad, or one of his brothers are named it.
1952   Patrick   2023 Jul 4, 3:09pm  

I think this was posted before, but now I'm posting a cached copy so it can't be suppressed.

I like this guy, Imam Mohammad Tawhidi. I have some problems with Islam, like the fact that they have to kill you if you try to leave Islam, but this guy seems very reasonable to me.

1953   stereotomy   2023 Jul 4, 3:18pm  

He's probably practicing taqquiya here as well. He doesn't explain how the "filth" of these extremists were allowed to leave and go to france. Sounds a lot like Castro's Mariel boat lift of 1980, where he packed all the hardened criminals in with the rest. I guess the old Soviets would call this "filth" the useful idiots - kind of like pantifa burning up our cities.
1954   gabbar   2023 Jul 4, 3:41pm  

Why Muslims align with the liberals?
"The future of America has to be Muslim" - Imam Mohammad Tawhidi (interview with Dinesh D Souza)
1955   Blue   2023 Jul 4, 5:31pm  

Patrick says





"Islamophobia" investments are giving dividends in all over the world particularly in Europe.
1956   AmericanKulak   2023 Jul 4, 5:43pm  

Patrick says

I like this guy, Imam Mohammad Tawhidi. I have some problems with Islam, like the fact that they have to kill you if you try to leave Islam, but this guy seems very reasonable to me.

Yep. One nice thing about good and open business is that disruptors are not liked.

Sadat, Nasser, the Sauds (now, they made the mistake of trying to distract and export them earlier), all know how to deal with nuts.

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