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Islam and Violence


 invite response                
2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   611,392 views  2,865 comments

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Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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2379   AmericanKulak   2024 Feb 27, 10:16pm  

Yep, Gaza has a similar explosive growth rate: From about 300,000 in 1967 to over 2 Million today.

Linda Sarsour, Rashida Talib, their American born relatives (and children and themselves at least in Linda's case along with her husband) with irrevocable birth US citizenship, etc. are all considered 'refugees' under UNRWA. Any and all other refugees from any or all ethnic groups are under UNHCRs, which revokes refugee status when a refugee is granted any temporary residency or placement anywhere else.
2380   Patrick   2024 Feb 27, 10:27pm  

AmericanKulak says






I think Xi Van Fleet would explain this as deliberate destabilization by communists as a strategy for taking power.

https://tuckercarlson.com/the-tucker-carlson-encounter-xi-van-fleet-2/
2381   richwicks   2024 Feb 28, 12:49am  

gabbar says

No. There is no Allah. He/She/They is a imaginary entity. Are you a follower of Islam?


I'm not particularly religious, and the Islamic religion shares the same god as the Christian religion does.
2382   richwicks   2024 Feb 28, 12:50am  

AmericanKulak says






It's just a claim. Why are there no links?

well, if they are lying, there would be no links.
2383   gabbar   2024 Mar 1, 7:25am  

The official order for Mahjoubi's expulsion, seen by AFP, said that in sermons in February he had given a "retrograde, intolerant and violent" image of Islam that would encourage behaviour against French values, discrimination against women, "tensions with the Jewish community" and "jihadist radicalisation".

The imam also referred to "the Jewish people as the enemy", according to the order, which said Mahjoubi called for "the destruction of Western society".

The imam was also accused of sharing a video in which he described the "tricolour" – without specifying if he meant the French flag – as "satanic" and of "no value with Allah".

https://www.france24.com/en/africa/20240223-tunisian-imam-expelled-from-france-vows-to-appeal-decision
2384   Patrick   2024 Mar 1, 7:27am  

OK France, it's a start. One down, 6 million to go.

Every mosque in the West is a foreign military base.
2386   AmericanKulak   2024 Mar 5, 7:47pm  

Thousands of Christians killed by Muslims in the first half of 2023 - and 90% of them were Nigerian
https://www.heritage.org/africa/commentary/slaughter-nigerian-christians-warrants-international-attention
2387   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Mar 7, 11:12am  

I just happened to be watching PBS last night when they mentioned the Treaty of Umar from 637AD. Has anyone on this thread heard of it? I hadn't, and found it very interesting that the Caliph specifically ensured continued religious freedom in Jerusalem, and not only that, refused to pray at the Christian/Jewish holy site because he knew Muslims would erect a shrine there, and wanted to preserve that site for Christians.

One other thing, been reading Acts in the Bible. It covers the history of the early church after Christ's ascension, a group that was at that time known as The Way(now Christians). According to Acts, the most fervent, zealous persecutors of The Way were Jews. They would actually follow the early disciples such as Paul as he traveled to preach in different cities, and attempt to incite violence against him. They succeeded, Paul was beaten more than once, and even stoned and left for dead. Now Paul was a Jew who followed every law, and initially was the church's biggest opponent before the road to Damascus. And they still tried to kill him multiple times.

Jews would expel other Jews from the synagogue, which I believe was an early form of bank account freezing. You weren't just prevented from attending church, you were screwed in Jewish society. They would jail Christians, beat them, kill them, all because they preached the truth about Jesus.

But if I read the comments here I'm supposed to believe it's Muslims I should worry about as a Christian, not Jews...
2388   Patrick   2024 Mar 7, 11:29am  

Oh, in terms of immediate physical violence, it's definitely only the Muslims you should worry about. Muslims who are following the instructions of Islam murder random innocent people around the world every single day:

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

Only Islam demands that you be murdered if you refuse to convert or pay the jizya. That's why there can be no site like thereligionofpeace.com about any other religion. The murders just aren't there for the other religions.

OK, the Israelis are being pretty murderous against the Palestinians, but that's not a global war to make Judaism the one supreme religion and government on earth. Only Islam teaches that its followers must conquer the earth by violence. Judaism does teach that the Jews have the right to rule the land of Israel. Islam universalized this and claims that only Muslims have the right to rule anywhere on earth. All non-Islamic governments are considered to be in a state of war with Islam.

That PBS show no doubt ignored the fact that Islamic "tolerance" was granted only to those who submitted to the rule of Muslims and who paid in cash for the privilege of not being forced to convert.

Interesting tidbit about Paul: yes, the traditional Jews tried to kill him for blasphemy, and even brought a case to Seneca's brother, who was a Roman magistrate in Greece. The brother heard the first line of the Jews' complaints and said "Piss off, that's a religious matter among you Jews, not something for Romans to decide."
2389   Patrick   2024 Mar 7, 11:57am  

NuttBoxer says

Treaty of Umar from 637AD


Some choice lines from that "tolerant" treaty:


We will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration...

We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night... Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. ...

We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them.

We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. ...

We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets.

We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets.

We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. ...


https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-pact-of-umar-regulating-the-status-of-non-muslims-under-muslim-rule

Makes Christians 3rd class citizens in their own countries.
2390   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Mar 7, 12:41pm  

Patrick says

Oh, in terms of immediate physical violence, it's definitely only the Muslims you should worry about. Muslims who are following the instructions of Islam murder random innocent people around the world every single day


I hear your opinion, I just don't see it in reality. The Muslims I've known are better mannered than MANY Christians I can think of. I've never been personally attacked for my beliefs as a Christian, but in our society the ones going after me aren't Muslims, they're all white. And in terms of terrorist attacks in the US, Mossad and the CIA would be at the top of my list, NOT Hamas. After all, they both have very direct links to 9/11, Hamas, NONE.

And in terms of my Children's safety, Epstein is a Jewish name I believe, and again, the proven deep state connection is Mossad.
2391   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Mar 7, 12:48pm  

Patrick says

Makes Christians 3rd class citizens in their own countries.


Gentiles, aka all of us, weren't allowed to set foot in Jewish temples, and were persecuted, beaten, and murdered for believing Jesus was the Messiah. And the Jews were NOT in power during that time, they were under Rome, so we have to assume they were held in check. Paul survived his last visit to Jerusalem only because he was rescued by Roman soldiers, and was a citizen of Rome. The treaty you just read was after Jerusalem surrendered to the Caliph.

Yes, Christians were NOT first class citizens. Weren't under Rome either, definitely weren't under Israel, a fact that is still true today.

See, I'm ok pointing to all the wrong, you aren't. That's because I care about the truth, not hating people based on creed, color, or religion...
2392   Patrick   2024 Mar 7, 12:56pm  

NuttBoxer says


weren't allowed to set foot in Jewish temples


That was definitely true for the temple in Jerusalem. I don't think there were any other Jewish temples in antiquity. There was a border around it, saying "No gentiles past this point, on penalty of death."

Again, Islam is just a universalized and militaristic form of Judaism:



Everything you don't like about Judaism is yet more true about Islam.
2393   Patrick   2024 Mar 7, 1:01pm  

NuttBoxer says


I care about the truth, not hating people based on creed, color, or religion...


I also care about truth, and too many people are willing to try to paper over the violence that is the very core of Islam. Islam means "submission", as in "submit, pay, or die".

Muslims are people, just like Jews are people. They should not be hated just because of the religion they were born into, though it must remain allowed to criticize the anti-outsider aspects of any religion, and especially Islam's role in the daily Islamic murders of outsiders.
2394   gabbar   2024 Mar 7, 1:07pm  

Patrick says

Only Islam demands that you be murdered if you refuse to convert or pay the jizya. That's why there can be no site like thereligionofpeace.com about any other religion. The murders just aren't there for the other religions.

Further, other religions have progressed while Islam has regressed and its stubborn about regressing and imposing that shit on others by force.
2395   Patrick   2024 Mar 7, 1:11pm  

NuttBoxer says

Christians were NOT first class citizens. Weren't under Rome either, definitely weren't under Israel, a fact that is still true today.


Again, Islam is much more extreme and intolerant than Judaism. No Christian churches are allowed in Saudi Arabia at all, and you can be prosecuted for displaying a bible in public:

https://www.persecution.org/2019/10/19/christian-tourists-risk-arrest-bibles-displayed-saudi-arabia/


10/19/2019 Saudi Arabia (International Christian Concern) – Adherence to strict Saudi Arabian rules include restrictions on open Christian practice. New tourist regulations allow for one Bible to be brought into the country for personal use only. More than one or any public display of the Bible will bring harsh punishment, even for tourists.

Conversion from Islam to Christianity is considered a crime in Saudi Arabia and Christians who live and practice their faith there are in constant danger of imprisonment or violence.


Israel, on the other hand, has no such restrictions on bibles.

And sure, the Romans persecuted Christians, at first. Then Christianity became the Roman state religion.
2397   socal2   2024 Mar 22, 11:59am  

Better then even chances that this attack in Moscow is from the Religion of Pieces.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1771235159045730545
2398   Patrick   2024 Mar 22, 12:32pm  

Yes, about 99% chance that it was murderous Muslims once again.

Over and over and over, it's Muslims who deliberately murder random innocent civilians.
2399   socal2   2024 Mar 22, 12:43pm  

Patrick says

Yes, about 99% chance that it was murderous Muslims once again.

Over and over and over, it's Muslims who deliberately murder random innocent civilians.


Won't be long before the usual suspects will blame this attack as a false flag perpetrated by:

- CIA?
- Jews?
- Ukraine?
2400   socal2   2024 Mar 22, 6:43pm  

Aaaand its ISIS.

Islam excuses and blaming it on Ukraine, Jews or the CIA in 3, 2, 1.....

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1771288526841389215
2401   richwicks   2024 Mar 22, 7:19pm  

socal2 says


Patrick says


Yes, about 99% chance that it was murderous Muslims once again.

Over and over and over, it's Muslims who deliberately murder random innocent civilians.


Won't be long before the usual suspects will blame this attack as a false flag perpetrated by:

- CIA?
- Jews?
- Ukraine?



Don't dismiss the possibility.

The Lavon Affair demonstrates that Israel will attack civilians to frame Arabs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

You need to be aware of these things to have at least suspicion. False flags are common, not only by Israel, but by all nations. I'm certain October 7th was at least ALLOWED by Israel, same with 9/11 being at least ALLOWED by the United States. I can't be certain they took active participation in them. Hamas really was funded by Israel, the leaders in Qatar, and they are living a comfortable life and aren't being screwed with by Mossad at all.

socal2 says


Aaaand its ISIS.


This is Israel then. ISIS is a proxy terrorist group supported by Israel in an attempt to topple al-Assad.
2402   Misc   2024 Mar 22, 7:36pm  

An Islamic terrorist organization has claimed responsibility for slaughtering concert goers in Moscow.

richwicks says


This is Israel then. ISIS is a proxy terrorist group supported by Israel in an attempt to toppled al-Assad.


Where's the link ??????

Do you believe that Israel was behind this attack ???

I think you need a vacation. Step away from the computer and take a trip outside SF. It will clear your mind.
2403   richwicks   2024 Mar 22, 7:45pm  

Misc says


An Islamic terrorist organization has claimed responsibility for slaughtering concert goers in Moscow.

richwicks says


This is Israel then. ISIS is a proxy terrorist group supported by Israel in an attempt to toppled al-Assad.


Do you believe that Israel was behind this attack ???



Israel at least was a partner in the attack. Gaza is a tiny place, and training took place within Gaza. It's impossible this wasn't detected. After the breach of the wall, it went on for HOURS, and the IDF was nowhere to be seen to stop it.

So I'm forced to pick between extreme incompetence or collusion and given Israel's history of attacking Jews within foreign nations in order to increase immigration to Israel, the Lavon Affair, the attack on the USS Liberty which wasn't a mistake and went on for hours (it's not like there was radio silence and there were no directional antennas so Israel picked it up, they requested assistance and this was before encryption - it had to be picked up by the pilots), their lies to start the Iraq War (the yellow cake uranium bullshit), etc - I conclude they aren't incompetent. Their motto is "through deception we will make war", and they do that.

Misc says


I think you need a vacation. Step away from the computer and take a trip outside SF. It will clear your mind.


I don't go to San Francisco. I consider it a gross shithole, and did 20 years ago. It's always been tremendously inconvenient, it's expensive, it's always had a high crime level, and there's no vegetation. It's not as bad as NYC, as the odor of the sewer system isn't constantly present no matter where you go, but it's bad. I haven't been there for at least 5 years.

The point of the Internet, why we made it, was to end this shit by allowing free communication. You can talk to anybody in the planet. You have to be careful not to offend, and it's easy for me to trace an IP address. I can confirm who I'm talking to is in the country, or at least, using a VPN to appear to be. These avenues are being closed off and have been for the last decades, but they still exist.

Don't bother with the insults or calling me crazy, or that I'm on the computer too much or whatever. That's just an adhominem attack, a sort of gaslighting. I'm entirely immune to that at this point.
2404   Reality   2024 Mar 22, 8:37pm  

Patrick says


Islam is much more extreme and intolerant than Judaism.


Not sure about that. Islam's battle-cry was/is usually "Convert or pay a faith-tax or die"; Judaism's battle-cry has always been "kill all their men, women, children and all live-stock," as the Prime Minister recently repeated.

Judaism's policy on converting out of it is extermination, just look at the descendants of Biblical Jews who stayed and converted to Islam (which is a somewhat mellower version of Judaism but not quite as mellow as post-schism Christianity). The really insidious part of this extermination policy on those having converted out is that it's not just a policy on those converted out but on all non-Jews (and the not sufficiently "Jewish") getting in the way of profit-making! The definition of "Jewishness" in recent Israel seems to be entirely backwards: with genetically much closer to the original Jews pushed to the bottom of the totem pole even among those who are still considered Jews. Zionism has essentially become an exterminatioinist and self-exterminationist ideology, just like Nazism was.
2405   richwicks   2024 Mar 22, 8:46pm  

Patrick says


Everything you don't like about Judaism is yet more true about Islam.


Are US taxpayers paying for those nations just to exist?

That's the difference. I don't care what Israel does if I'm not forced to be a part of it. I'm sick of blood being on my hands. Saudi Arabia is a place where the government openly murders and dismembers journalists, North Korea is a nightmare of constant propaganda - I don't think we should do anything about that, other than perhaps speak against it. We shouldn't fund them. We shouldn't fund China either for that matter.
2406   Misc   2024 Mar 22, 8:59pm  

richwicks says

Israel at least was a partner in the attack. Gaza is a tiny place, and training took place within Gaza. It's impossible this wasn't detected. After the breach of the wall, it went on for HOURS, and the IDF was nowhere to be seen to stop it.


What the Fuck does this have to do with ISIS slaughtering concert goers in Moscow ????

Dude, you really need a vacation. You have not been capable of keeping up with not only the content in this thread, but you attacked a person with the same views as yourself in another thread.

You also seem to believe that Israel was behind the ISIS attack in Moscow. You are losing the ability to distinguish reality from un-reality.

Take a vacation.
2407   Reality   2024 Mar 22, 9:25pm  

Misc says


You also seem to believe that Israel was behind the ISIS attack in Moscow. You are losing the ability to distinguish reality from un-reality.


If it's ISIS taking credit, then it is indeed Israeli State Intelligence Service. See this Foreign Policy article from 2022, shortly after the war in Ukraine started:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/15/syrian-fighters-ukraine-russia-war/

Both sides of the Syrian conflict were moving to fight on the two sides in Ukraine. Obviously Russia was on the side of Assad, whereas Israel/ISIS was on the other side trying to topple Assad therefore on the side of Ukraine trying to topple Putin. BTW, it makes zero sense for religious Muslims to name their own organization after a pagan goddess Isis. ISIS was/is a US-deep-state + Israeli operation. With the mass casualty bombing in Moscow, the banksters seem to be trying to induce a nuclear holocaust to kill as many bank account holders and pension account holders as possible in order to hide their collapsing ponzi scam.
2408   REpro   2024 Mar 22, 9:25pm  

We may soon have first Muslim Federal Appellate Judge.
https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/deadline-legal-blog/biden-nominee-adeel-mangi-rcna143962

I would recommend one for FBI and CIA boss.
2409   Patrick   2024 Mar 22, 9:37pm  

Reality says

Judaism's battle-cry has always been "kill all their men, women, children and all live-stock," as the Prime Minister recently repeated.


That's not true. There were a few nasty events told in the Torah, where the Jews settling the land of Israel were supposedly instructed by God to kill everything in certain cities, but no events like that from ~3000 BC until, you might argue, now in Gaza, but even there they are clearly not killing everyone.
2410   Patrick   2024 Mar 22, 9:37pm  

Reality says

Judaism's policy on converting out of it is extermination


That's not true either. Anyone can leave Judaism and not be killed, unlike Islam.
2411   Reality   2024 Mar 22, 9:43pm  

Patrick says


That's not true either. Anyone can leave Judaism and not be killed, unlike Islam.


Not all former Muslims are killed either. The rule is in the book, so to speak. Likewise, those who leave Judaism are turned into "cattle" according to the book then subject to extermination generations later (as are all "cattle"); "cattle" are not allowed to convert to or back to Judaism in order to avoid extermination either (just look at what's happening to descendants of Biblical Jews who stayed and converted to Islam), quite unlike Islam would allow re-conversion back to Islam (a milder version of Judaism)
2412   Misc   2024 Mar 22, 9:49pm  

Reality says


If it's ISIS taking credit, then it is indeed Israeli State Intelligence Service. See this Foreign Policy article from 2022, shortly after the war in Ukraine started:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/15/syrian-fighters-ukraine-russia-war/


I read it. Absolutely nowhere in the article was there even a mention of Israel.

ISIS is not what the Muslims call the organization. That's simply how Westerners refer to it.

Nobody should believe that a fundamental Islamic Caliphate with millions of people and tens of thousands of fighters was secretly controlled by Israeli bankers.
2413   Reality   2024 Mar 22, 9:54pm  

Patrick says


That's not true. There were a few nasty events told in the Torah, where the Jews settling the land of Israel were supposedly instructed by God to kill everything in certain cities, but no events like that from ~3000 BC until, you might argue, now in Gaza, but even there they are clearly not killing everyone.


The horrendous exterminationist events in the Torah were repeatedly cited by Jewish leaders whenever suited their agenda, which ironically often led to the extermination/decimation of local Jews in return; sometimes one has to wonder if they were deliberate attempts to relieve banking liabilities (as Jews always had very high savings rate, which made them liabilities to bankers, who were often fellow Jews, just like Bernie Madoff; as we know people embracing elitism are often susceptible to insider-scams). For example, there were massive riots and mutual slaughters between Roman Jews and Christians in the early 5th century, leading to the murder of Hypatia, the president of the largest university in the word at the time in Alexandria.
2414   Reality   2024 Mar 22, 10:02pm  

Misc says


I read it. Absolutely nowhere in the article was there even a mention of Israel.


Where did I say the article mentioned Israel? The article mentioned the two sides of the the Syrian conflict were moving their fight to the two sides of the war in Ukraine. Are you not aware that the two sides of the conflict in Syria consisted the side trying to topple Assad vs. the side trying to preserve Assad? Are you not aware that Israel was and is trying to topple Assad? ISIS just happened to spring into existence trying to topple Assad?

Misc says


Nobody should believe that a fundamental Islamic Caliphate with millions of people and tens of thousands of fighters was secretly controlled by Israeli bankers.


Is that along the same line as nobody should believe the dangers of the vax? The rapid rise of the "Islamic Caliphate" was very much the result of the deep-state supplying weapons, ammo, money and satellite intelligence to them. Didn't say Israeli bankers, but bankers who control both the US deep-state and Israel; Israeli intelligence happened to be the conduit funneling resources, logistics and expertise to the former Iraqi army officers (who were largely secular) who made up the military staff of the "Islamic Caliphate."
2415   Misc   2024 Mar 22, 10:29pm  

A couple things stopping that narrative is the US is/was actively bombing ISIS. The US also gave weapons and war materials to the Kurds to fight ISIS.

ISIS was not only trying to conquer Syria, but Iraq and Jordan for starters. They wanted to become the rallying point for all Muslims and become the Caliphate for all Muslims. They were despised by every government.

I am guessing you misspoke when you said: ""If it's ISIS taking credit, then it is indeed Israeli State Intelligence Service."
2416   Reality   2024 Mar 22, 11:06pm  

Misc says


A couple things stopping that narrative is the US is/was actively bombing ISIS. The US also gave weapons and war materials to the Kurds to fight ISIS.



The US pretend-bombed the ISIS. The Russians really bombed ISIS, and bombed them so badly that the deep-state had to send a Turkish F-16 to take down a Russian fighter-bomber bombing ISIS to make the Russian bombing campaign against ISIS slow down. Erdogan had to have a meeting with Putin to explain he didn't send the F-16 but the Turkish deep-state (the origin of the term "deep state") did. The Kurds were/are split in multiple ways in that corner of Turkey/Syria/Iraq. There are Kurdish groups fighting on both sides (and additional sides) of the Syrian conflict. The pay to some of the Kurds was simply to keep them out of the way of ISIS when the latter swept across the land.



ISIS was not only trying to conquer Syria, but Iraq and Jordan for starters. They wanted to become the rallying point for all Muslims and become the Caliphate for all Muslims. They were despised by every government.

I am guessing you misspoke when you said: ""If it's ISIS taking credit, then it is indeed Israeli State Intelligence Service."


Every regime in that part of the world (any part of the world, really) is at risk of being harvested by a banker-financed revolution/uprising, because all the regime high officers have stuffed their money in off-shore bank accounts. So while sponsoring those dictators allowed them to gather resources from the hapless citizens of those countries, taking turns harvesting them one by one after each country has been farmed for a few decades allow the banks to keep the money (much of which is already spent by the bankers) without having to pay back to the dictators and high office holders of those countries. Assad was targeted because his father had just died and he was thought to be a newbie unable to defend himself, and his Alewite minority group (really closet Christians practicing Adventist rituals while nominally pretending/claiming to be Muslims) would also be massacred so that their bank accounts would become abandoned. The various heads of states and their hangers-on in nearby countries can likewise become targets for harvest. A dead man can not withdraw money from the bank. No, I did not misspoke, but missed an "s" at the end for indicating plural. It's a collaboration among multiple services.
2417   Misc   2024 Mar 22, 11:21pm  

So, you really think that Israeli intelligence is behind the massacre in Moscow ???

By having ISIS claim responsibility, it doesn't provoke animosity towards the West.
2418   AD   2024 Mar 22, 11:49pm  

Misc says

So, you really think that Israeli intelligence is behind the massacre in Moscow ???

By having ISIS claim responsibility, it doesn't provoke animosity towards the West.


Why ? because Kremlin is behind Hamas attack on 6 October ?

I wonder if they caught at least one of the terrorists in the Moscow attack.

I hope it was not really a Western government operation as part of an unofficial war with Russia. Why murder innocent civilians, especially it will further galvanize Putin's base ?

.

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