patrick.net

AmericanKulak says

Blue Ridge or Ozarks

Same here! Ozarks are like the Blue Ridge without the drawl. I am searching waterfront property on Table Rock Lake.

HeadSet says

AD says

Need to figure out how to sell $250,000 3 bedroom/2 bath/1500 square foot single family detached starter homes at a profit without any subsidies.

Do the following and build a separate garage.

That bad boy is a trailer my friend. Even with land that costs the builder $100k all in. Basically if you have dignity, you'd never live in that thing.

WookieMan says

HeadSet says

AD says

Need to figure out how to sell $250,000 3 bedroom/2 bath/1500 square foot single family detached starter homes at a profit without any subsidies.

Do the following and build a separate garage.

That bad boy is a trailer my friend. Even with land that costs the builder $100k all in. Basically if you have dignity, you'd never live in that thing.

Yep, there are fixed costs for the developer like land acquisition, impact fees (electric utility line, storm water, etc), and permit fees.

A builder friend told me it likely cost $85,000 for the developer to build our 3 bedroom, 2.5 bath, 2 car garage townhome about 2 miles from the white sands and emerald water beaches; we paid $187,000 in summer 2016. So they doubled their investment likely over 5 years (bought land in 2011, etc).

I rather live with my people (in a trailer on Joan Avenue or anywhere else on the barrier island of Panama City Beach) then in some uppity white liberal village (with an optimized amount or mix of Asian tiger moms).

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WookieMan says

That bad boy is a trailer my friend.

Oh, I know, and I am very familiar with trailers. My dad is from an Appalachian style background so I have many cousins that are or have lived in trailers. I also had a friend in Wyoming who had a trailer and even one Air Force captain that chose to live that way. I would never prefer a trailer to a built house, but these trailers I have been in are quite nice. They look the same inside as other modest single-story homes, with a similar layout kitchen, bath and bedrooms. You just do not get an attic or basement. The people that get these trailers do so because they do not want to overspend on a house. One of my cousin's daughter works as a manager at a rural small town Dollar Store. She was able to buy an acre of land and put a trailer on it. Not sure how long her mortgage is, but the others with trailers own them outright. They live where they want to live and are able to afford boats and have the free time to go fishing. They also have nice decks and outbuildings.

AD says

I rather live with my people (in a trailer on Joan Avenue or anywhere else on the barrier island of Panama City Beach) then in some uppity white liberal village (with an optimized amount or mix of Asian tiger moms).

Yes.

The attitude towards trailers is yet another thing that keeps prices elevated. How are people supposed to combat high home prices? Through government? Keep bitching about high property taxes. LOL.

GNL says

The attitude towards trailers is yet another thing that keeps prices elevated.

I think there is a manufactured homes facility in Panama City along with other major factories and manufacturing job sites like Trane HVAC, Eastern Shipyard, Berg Pipe, Oceaneering, a new electrical transformer and electrical equipment manufacturer at the local airport industrial district, an industrial washing machine and dryer manufacturing facility at the beach industrial district, etc

Its not just about Tyndall AFB, Navsta Panama City, and tourism in Panama City metro area.

And the city is allowing them as these homes look a lot better : https://www.mypanhandle.com/news/manufactured-homes-allowed-in-panama-city/

ROLL TIDE

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zzyzzx says

As long as they can sell more profitable luxury houses, they have no incentive to build affordable housing.

The desire in a big home is real estate brainwashing and might be mostly an American phenomenba.

When rates actually went up the following day to 6.15% after the Fed’s announcement, there was lots of splainin’ to do. Although rates would settle at 6.06% on Friday night, the cracks in the narrative had been widening since late May when mortgage rates started their move down. Every realtor, broker, housing industry publication has made the innuendo or explicit case that when “rates” go down everyone was going to be fine, and the housing engine would restart. Additionally, if you ask one of these industry insiders about mortgage rates, they refer to the latest news from the Fed. No matter how many times I have pounded the table that the Fed does not control mortgage rates, the bond market does, those in the industry failed either to grasp or overtly acknowledge this fact. Do the Fed’s actions have an impact? Sure, but the bond market had already front-run the move with large drops in August when the Yen Carry Trade started to unwind. The confusion out there has gotten so bad that Jerome Powell himself had to state explicitly from the podium that “he can’t really speak to mortgage rates.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/m3melody/p/wait-what

He could control mortgage rates if he wanted to by simply buying a trillion or so MBS.

He's not desperate yet because the Federal government and corporations are expanding the amount of bonds at a reasonable rate.

HeadSet says

I would never prefer a trailer to a built house, but these trailers I have been in are quite nice. They look the same inside as other modest single-story homes, with a similar layout kitchen, bath and bedrooms. You just do not get an attic or basement.

You described an Eichler, lol.

HeadSet says

She was able to buy an acre of land and put a trailer on it.

And it gets a pink slip from the DMV so is not counted as a perm improvement on the property tax assessments. Need to pay more for the loan on them though.

You can have them added as a property improvement, tho. Involves an affidavit that you won't move it off the property and you surrender the pink slip to the property tax authority. Ppl only do that to get better financing for the trailer.

Eric Holder says

You described an Eichler, lol.

Eichlers can have basements/attics tho. Not common, but possible.

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

Eric Holder says

You described an Eichler, lol.

Eichlers can have basements/attics tho. Not common, but possible.

I thought they weren't supposed to have the former by definition and the latter are add-ons. There are some Eichlers in Bay Area with added 2nd stories, attics and such, but I never heard of basements in these. The whole "slab-on-grade foundation" thing was pioneered (or put into wide use) by Eichler, no?

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

And it gets a pink slip from the DMV so is not counted as a perm improvement on the property tax assessments.

I may have been using the term "trailer" wrong. These homes I am talking about are called "off frame" where two halves are brought to a site and assembled on a foundation. The roof is normal asphalt shingle. That example photo in my above post is one of those off frames.

HeadSet says

The roof is normal asphalt shingle

I was up on the roof today cleaning the gutters to get ready for the wet season.

The 17 years old shingles look a bit frayed at the edges. Supposedly it's a 20 year roof. Maybe we can eek out year 21. Time to start setting aside some money for this inevitability now. Because homie don't borrow.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Because homie don't borrow.

Same here. The only time I borrowed was for my first car and my first house. Paid cash for all cars and residence homes since. I did borrow to biy rental houses, but that is a business and not personal consumption.

HeadSet says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Because homie don't borrow.

Same here. The only time I borrowed was for my first car and my first house. Paid cash for all cars and residence homes since. I did borrow to biy rental houses, but that is a business and not personal consumption.

Who does the note cite as the party who will pay? You or the “business” that is a Corp? Think about risk and what that looks like if people stop paying your mortgage.

HeadSet says

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

And it gets a pink slip from the DMV so is not counted as a perm improvement on the property tax assessments.

I may have been using the term "trailer" wrong. These homes I am talking about are called "off frame" where two halves are brought to a site and assembled on a foundation. The roof is normal asphalt shingle. That example photo in my above post is one of those off frames.

When I was a kid I was forced labor for my dad to build two of those. Site prep mainly and finish work once joined. While nicer than a trailer it's kind of shitty.

I toured the Forest River factory in Indiana that makes a ton of them. Never let them put finishes in them. Have your own contractors come in and do flooring, baths, kitchen cabinets, etc. Hell even windows. Just get the frame. My sister still owns one of them. That why I referred to them as trailers because the finishes are almost always trash.

You could make one pretty nice with just the shell doing your own finishes. Especially if handy. The construction is actually surprisingly solid though on the frame. Better than most stick builders on site.

HeadSet says

I may have been using the term "trailer" wrong. These homes I am talking about are called "off frame" where two halves are brought to a site and assembled on a foundation. The roof is normal asphalt shingle. That example photo in my above post is one of those off frames.

'HUDular' manufactured homes? Single wide, double wide, triple wide? Correct?

HeadSet says

I may have been using the term "trailer" wrong. These homes I am talking about are called "off frame" where two halves are brought to a site and assembled on a foundation. The roof is normal asphalt shingle. That example photo in my above post is one of those off frames.

Got it. Okay, I thought it was an RV you were talking about. Big restrictions in many states on those, including in the unincorporated county areas, to give an advantage to big developers and realtors. It sounds like you are referring to a modular home, which are generally well built and a good value. For $100k you can have a new modest house, and $150k gets you a really nice one, providing you can handle the zoning laws.

This is one of Blackrock's LLC owned properties.


I suspect the biggest price drop may have an uninsurability/flood zone issue, or perhaps a personal crisis.

ForcedTQ says

Who does the note cite as the party who will pay? You or the “business” that is a Corp? Think about risk and what that looks like if people stop paying your mortgage.

The point had to do with borrowing for mere consumption verses borrowing to fund a business. Business risk is another issue.

AmericanKulak says

For $100k you can have a new modest house, and $150k gets you a really nice one

Yes, the ones build as two halves and trucked to the site and buttoned together. There is also a modular home builder here that does much more upscale, where the house is factory built in many sections and assembled piece by piece with a crane. The foundations for these have to be perfectly level and all walls in the finished house are absolutely square.

Love it! Those modulars really are something. Some have a great deal of Sq Ft. This tech room one is great for the kids...
https://www.floridamodularhomes.net/manufactured-and-modular-home-floorplans/the-altitude/

Here are some latest RV/Trailer Mobile Homes, which is why I wonder why anybody is into Tiny Houses that are generally harder to move and hook up.
https://rv.campingworld.com/rv/2415101?storecode=KS&scpc=lia-gpm-cwrv-nat&gad_source=1&gclsrc=ds

AmericanKulak says

I wonder why anybody is into Tiny Houses

Just a fad. And yes, they make no sense when house trailers and motor homes have been around since the 1950s.

HeadSet says

anKulak says

I wonder why anybody is into Tiny Houses

Just a fad. And yes, they make no sense when house trailers and motor homes have been around since the 1950s.

Tiny Homes are well insulated and is code built similar to a single family detached home. Its like a ~120 square foot stick home on a metal frame.

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West Coast of Florida getting creamed.

Inventory much HIGHER than pre-pandemic.

AmericanKulak says

West Coast of Florida getting creamed.

Opposite here in my town. 2 houses for sale. Price history included. This goes to show different locations have different trends.

I think coastal areas are going to take the beating on this one including TX. TN and ID will layer on top of it. I still don't see any downturn being all that bad.

I wonder if the coming storm will annoy housesellers already wanting out.

@AD It's supposedly going straight to Talahassee and will only brush the West Coast. Still, there will be rain and at least some flooding for sure

The largest insurer in Florida claims that a 93% rate increase is necessary
https://floridainsider.com/business/largest-florida-insurer-claims-that-a-93-rate-increase-is-needed/

Insurers use drone to cancel Florida homeowner's policy, citing his 6-year old roof
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/florida-homeowner-dropped-insurer-over-105500151.html

Keeping in mind Florida property insurance is already much higher than the national average, in a state infamous for low wages, while housing prices approach expensive average East Coast Levels.

Percentage change in housing inventory (Q1 2023–Q1 2024): +34.7%
Total change in housing inventory (Q1 2023–Q1 2024): +36,837
Months’ supply (Q1 2024): 5.2
Months’ supply (Q1 2023): 3.8
Median sale price (Q1 2024): $409,448
Median sale price (Q1 2023): $393,866
https://www.kilgorenewsherald.com/florida-sees-the-nations-largest-increase-in-housing-inventory/article_78751b48-697e-5acc-bdb9-c243a64cd623.html

A much better indicator right now would be Median LIST price. Because in June, 56,000 sales contracts were cancelled, an all time record for any June in recorded history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oznLkWv6u4c

Blackrock and Wall Street abandoning the R/E Market in droves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2BZbCbGN0g

AmericanKulak says

Keeping in mind Florida property insurance is already much higher than the national average, in a state infamous for low wages, while housing prices approach expensive average East Coast Levels.

So the bloom is off the Florida rose then? If it's not cheap to live in anymore, what's the point of suffering the heat, humidity and storms? At this point it's better to move to Indiana and just fly to the beach now and then Wookie-style.

AmericanKulak says

The largest insurer in Florida claims that a 93% rate increase is necessary
https://floridainsider.com/business/largest-florida-insurer-claims-that-a-93-rate-increase-is-needed/

Insurers use drone to cancel Florida homeowner's policy, citing his 6-year old roof
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/florida-homeowner-dropped-insurer-over-105500151.html

Keeping in mind Florida property insurance is already much higher than the national average, in a state infamous for low wages, while housing prices approach expensive average East Coast Levels.

I have a friend that moved to Fort Myers right before Hurricane Ian. He bought a foreclosure and had to get the woman out of the home. He decided to forgo property insurance and got creamed. He is still going without property insurance. He’s on a canal in Fort Myers where even a rain storm makes his front lawn become a pond. Oh boy, I wonder if he’s gonna get creamed again.

GNL says

I have a friend that moved to Fort Myers right before Hurricane Ian. He bought a foreclosure and had to get the woman out of the home. He decided to forgo property insurance and got creamed. He is still going without property insurance. He’s on a canal in Fort Myers where even a rain storm makes his front lawn become a pond. Oh boy, I wonder if he’s gonna get creamed again.

Waterfront property is "disposable property." Way back in the day, the rich people would buy property on the highest hill to build. they'd have to rebuild it after the last Nor'Easter.

There's a reason why most coastal real estate was vacant except for summer shacks until after WWII and, more importantly, the hurricane windfall of nearly 20% non-callable 30-year Treasury bonds for the last 40 years was flush enough to backstop this profligacy. Now, Finally, insurance will cost what it REALLY costs, and the coastal mansions will disappear over the next generation.

FYI - It's a REALLY bad time to consider an actuary position.

Eric Holder says

So the bloom is off the Florida rose then? If it's not cheap to live in anymore, what's the point of suffering the heat, humidity and storms? At this point it's better to move to Indiana and just fly to the beach now and then Wookie-style.

Met a guy and gal from Oklahoma. Welder and LPN. She said they are leaving as soon as the lease is up after their first year here.

Wages are only $1 more in Florida for LPNs but actually LESS for Welders because Oklahoma has some oil and industry - but the cost of living from groceries to housing is much, much higher. They also experienced their first Florida summer.

Every Arkie-Oakie I've ever met are pretty cool people I must say.

Eric Holder says

At this point it's better to move to Indiana and just fly to the beach now and then Wookie-style.

For the win! So many cheaper places to live. Most people don't even take time off anyway. Usually a weekend trip. If you have off road vehicles you can go here in Indiana. https://www.badlandsoffroad.com/

Wisconsin has a massive trail system for summer and winter seasons for off roading and snowmobiling. Plenty of lakes to fish in summer or winter. Tons of good hunting opportunities if you're into that. For the midwest good skiing and snowboarding in a few spots.

IL is underrated because of Chicago Democrats. I will bitch about it, but 50-60+ miles outside of Chicago you can get solid houses for $150k, but still close to that airport to go to the beaches or where ever when you have a week or two off.

We're in a raffle for a $25k side by side. 500 tickets only. I think the wife got 3 tickets. Gambling and fundraising. No expectation of winning. My wife wins shit though. We're approaching 15 TV's. She wins them at work golf outings. We have three 50" or larger TV's in the boxes just sitting in our laundry room.

I get people don't like winter, but it's sooooooo much cheaper in the midwest. All my tech friends work from home, so location isn't a biggie. Still want to be within 60 miles of a decent airport. IL it's Chicago, Quad Cities and Peoria. There's St. Louis on the IL side but that airport is a shit hole of an armpit. Kansas city goes down as the shittiest airport. Saint Thomas is bad, but you get off the plane and you're in the Caribbean. Not much to complain about. Though they are upgrading it quite a bit. My wife just booked a vacation and I have no fucking clue where we're going. As long as there's a beach and drinks. Or mountains.

That's where I'm at now, with the oil patch kids in Oklahoma.. Property prices raised up in small town USA, but they had a much smaller starting base. Was in Tampa back in June/July for a month or so. Even with the humidity it was nicer than the Phoenix heat then. Didn't really look at property prices there 'cause the insurance whammy was just getting heard of along with the condo assessment thingy.,

I still think people have lost their minds when it comes to land prices in Phoenix. In Chandler (a suburb), land is going for $300k an acre for frigging desert.

Besides Florida, I haven't really seen any big amounts of properties being put up for sale.