patrick.net

Ptiemann

Their home is soooo nice. A move up is based solely on greed. The wife is very status conscious and always wants more, more, more. I think the husband just gets worn down and gives in. I don't envy him.

When they talk about a "new paradigm without real estates" or "housing is dead", buy, buy, buy!

"They" refers to the lemmings.

"I do not understand why someone who already has 4 bedrooms does need to move up into a bigger house."

This touches on a pet topic of mine. It is interesting how monotonous the California housing stock is. We have such awful architecture that houses are essentially differentiated by three things: location, size and appliances, in that order. Location I can understand, but why someone would pay $500K more for more of the same stucco crap is beyond me. Its just more useless rooms to pay someone else to vacuum.

My theory is that, as our aesthetic senses have been dulled by modernism, the only attribute we can easily use as a social marker is size. California, being the end-point of rootless modern individualism, suffers from the problem in a comically amplified manner. Therefore, we have "Luxury" homes that have been thrown up in the same exact manner as the "Starter" homes the next development down, but which have maybe 50% more square footage, and better appliances. In ten years, they have the same stains on the stucco where the metal window frames and vents have bled onto them. They have the same cracked corners. They have the same permanent dingy aura that seems to attach to all new homes. They are simply bigger. It boggles the mind.

(I say this all as a native Californian. It is self-criticism.)

Cheerio,
prat

Almost forgot to mention Rock Financial. They are the local “screamer” type ads for mortgages, refinancing etc. They have a new loan product called “On The House”. If you listen to any radio here in the Detroit area you have probably heard these ads. “Want a fancy new car? How about a vacation? Plasma TV? It’s on the house! Get a home equity loan from Rock Financial and treat yourself today!”

Wow. I actually wish I'd thought of that tagline first --it's really clever. Scary... but clever.

EBR: Prat, have you read “Not So Big House?”

I haven't. I've flipped through it quite a few times in the book store, but it gives off a whiff of the westernized-peudo-asian aura of that bugs the living hell out of me (for reasons entirely irrational, I'll admit). I'm all for new urbanism, and particularly craftsman homes, but the quasi-japanese modernism that creeps into the pictures I see in the book sets my teeth on edge.

What I really want is Edinburgh's New Town, but here in California. Is that so much to ask?

Cheers,
prat

Prat
I think you hit the nail on the head with your theory about size over style or substance. The homes here are all pretty much the same. My parents bought in this area about 20 years ago, and every house in their neighborbood looks completely different. But the newer homes have about 5 different designs per neighborhood and that's it. So, I guess in the mind of the status oriented, the only way to get better is to get bigger.

I do actually have another bubble story, but I don't know all of the details. There is a house being built on the street behind us that's in a really weird location. I don't even really know how to explain it well. I think it's actually on the same lot as two other very small homes. It's wedged between one very small home that looks more like a guest house but there is no bigger house to go with it, and another standard middle class home. There is literally less than 5 feet from the house and the back and side fence. There is no front lawn as the house is probably less than 10 feet from the street. My husband and I have constantly remarked on the location, but we don't know much about zoning so we didn't think much more of it until a friend of my husband's came over. This friend used to build spec houses and he couldn't believe his eyes. He said there was no way this house was legal and no way it could pass zoning. He must be right, because the house is about 1/2 built, but no work has been done on it for the last 2 months or so. It's just sitting there. I don't know if they ran out of money, or can't pass the inspections. It should be mentioned that the place is pretty big too. It's got to be at least 3500 sqft. Every time I drive by, I think "who in their right mind is going to buy that thing." But I know that in this market there will be a "greater fool" sooner than later.

My Dad, who's in the car business has a saying about selling cars. "There's an ass for every seat." I wonder what the saying for the housing market could be.

TIM: "Probably another side effect of the credit bubble mania."

I'm a bit of a crank on this topic, and I lay the blame squarely on the modernist movement (and its bastard children) in architecture. By stripping away all detailing from buildings, the modernists destroyed the craftsmen and removed representation from buildings. This especially impoverished public buildings, but it removed meaning from the private space as well.

Basically, the architects and artists stopped believing in and speaking to our souls.

But I begin to bore...

Cheers,
prat

One other thing. My husband read some survey today that showed about 70-someting % of people polled thought that the housing market was fine and would continue on just like it has been. In his business, he and his associates say when the herd mentality gets to this point, it's time to do the opposite.

SactoQt: I meant to ask, did you grow up in Sac? I'm a sactown boy: I grew up in Granite Bay.

Cheers,
prat

You da man. I live in Granite Bay now, have lived here since 1985.

It was Roseville when I moved here. I graduated Oakmont 1987.

_laugh_

Excellent. So you know the *exact* homes I'm talking about then.

Great golf course though.

Cheers,
prat

The friend I have who wants the bigger home lives right up the street from the golf course. I run on the trail around the course several days a week, and my Dad is, of course, a member.

Regarding architecture...

I think ideally land developers should sell land with utility hookups directly to home buyers, which ten can decide what to build.

One can hire a fancy custom home builder to put a McMansion there, or build a post-modern pre-fab home with solr panels. :)

On the other hand, urban development requires more planning and the use of space must be efficient. Well designed condo towers with sustainable engineering in mind is perhaps a good idea.

Regarding space...

For a family with N children, I think (N + 2) bedrooms with (N + 2) bathrooms are more than sufficient. (Unless one needs a study, a library, an office, and a guest room.)

Perhaps I am calculating too much...

sqt: "I graduated Oakmont 1987.I graduated Oakmont 1987."

_LAUGH_ Oakmont '94. Go vike's.

Peter: "For a family with N children"

N + 2 isn't a bad number, if you have 1 or 2 kids. 1 for the parents, N for the kids and 1 guest bedroom. I think a small guest quarters/inlaw in the rear is even better. It allows your guests more privacy, when your children get late in high school and need some more independence they can use it, and when your parents get older, they can maintain some independence when you are helping them out.

Cheers,
prat

@mcj

"Huge SUVs are just gussied up body-on -frame pickup truck type vehicles using 1960s technology. They are slow, handle poorly, and don’t have any more interior space than a good full size sedan."

Oh, don't get me started. Toyota is releasing a new FJ next year that I'm moderately excited about (although it won't come with a diesel engine, so my biodiesel aspirations will have to wait). It's small and functional, although its not clear what the inside looks like. It's the first SUV (oh, how I hate that term) that I've been interested in in a long while.

"McMansions generally have way more space than people need and just require more cleaning and higher utility bills."

Just so.

Cheers,
prat

motorcityjim, the whole SUV thing is becoming a nuclear arm race. Many people feel compelled to get one because there are just too many on the road and they do not feel safe without one.

I am actually hoping for a $2/g gasoline tax to fund alternative energy. Gas in American is just too cheap. It needs to be at least 100% more expensive. Trust me, as a nation, we will be far more ahead in the long run with this.

"I am actually hoping for a $2/g gasoline tax to fund alternative energy. Gas in American is just too cheap. It needs to be at least 100% more expensive. Trust me, as a nation, we will be far more ahead in the long run with this."

Biodiesel. Biodiesel. Biodiesel.

Cheers,
prat

Hi Jack, where were you?

Where is Escaped from DC?

motorcityjim, the problem is that most people think that they are safe drivers and that they cannot be harmed by other dangerous drivers in an SUV. Too bad they are actually the dangerous driver.

I will take a large sedan with side airbags over an SUV any day. :)

But we really need much better driver education.

Scott, I am beginning to realize that no one is at fault. Market participants are merely acting according to the best interest using imperfect information. Boom/bust cycles are just unfortunate side-effects of capitalism that we have to live with (or exploit). Similarly, greed and fear are human weaknesses that we must deal with.

motorcityjim, many people with business backgrounds are still falling for the financial mania. Greed and fear can mask any degree of education.

"It’s all about getting into the game to NEUTRALIZE the ups AND THE DOWNS of the housing market."

_smile_

That's certainly one theory.

I'm so lucky that I bought my 4500 square foot mansion in Palo Alto when I was -30 years old! It came with a magic dragon and time travel machine too. All you poor saps who don't have a magic dragon and time travel machine had better get in soon, or you will be priced out of the magic dragon and time travel machine market... FOREVER!

Cheerio,
prat

_laugh_

MP is either a troll, which seems more statistically likely, or is in such an amazing situation that one wonders why he would bother to even post here is a bit beyond me. In any event, the advice he gives, while perhaps reasonable for other 28 year olds with well over half a million dollars of equity with which to work, is not particularly good for those of us in the less happy positions.

Again, to beat the liquid, pasty remains of what was once a dead horse:

http://tinyurl.com/bkecn

As over the top as our friend in the Marina is, he is correct that we (or, at least, I) need to resist the temptations of despair and pessimism. Hope and charity, especially when we least have it and least wish to give it, respectively.

Cheerio,
prat

Wow, my english sucks. I need to reread posts...

"one wonders why he would bother to even post here is a bit beyond me"?

What is *that* crap?

Cheers,
prat

Do I hear troll? HARM has access to the DELETE button.

Sorry PeterP, have any walnuts left?

Lots of them. I need so much of them that I need to hedge walnut prices. But the DELETE button is an alternative. The author of the thread also has IP information of all comments.

No No, keep him on…..He’s kinda funny, in a smug sort of way. Truely not normal and does not even know it.

True. Freedom of speech, the 11th commandment of The Law.

We need an official troll policy. We do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not feed the trolls. We prosecute terrorists. We feed the squirrels.

I vote no deleting. The over-the-topness of the trolling is delightful, and I look forward to Surfer-X's responses.

As an aside, did you all know that I'm fabulously wealthy, incredibly good looking, and, like, waaaaay smarter than all of you? Cause, like, I am, like.

_smile_

Again, buried in there is a knot of truth: SF does have the best architecture available in California. The marina is a disaster, of course. Stucco pseudo-spanish huts with gaping maws of garages stuck smack in the middle of them. The Edwardians in SF are *not* well done. They are simply streamlined (read: cheaper) victorians, with the exception of a few in Pacific Heights. The victorians, however, are spectacular when they haven't been surrounded by post-1940 monstrosities. Victorian architecture is interesting: by itself, it is absurd, but when you do a whole neighborhood of row houses in it, it all hangs together delightfully. Odd.

I would also add that there are some very well done classical homes as well, particularly in the very wealthy parts of Pacific Heights and Sea Cliff (although Sea Cliff tends to drift into parody.) Also, you will find the occasionally well done craftsman. Sadly, even San Francisco has been overrun by post-1920's crap in most neighborhoods, even the toniest.

Cheers,
prat

As an aside, did you all know that I’m fabulously wealthy, incredibly good looking, and, like, waaaaay smarter than all of you? Cause, like, I am, like.

Prat, of course we know. That's why you are now the leader.

Follow the leader...
Follow the leader...
Follow the leader...

Surfer-X is now our defense secretary.

Can I take the post of propaganda secratary?

Where is Fake P anyway? Could this be the new, unbearable Fake P on steroids?

Can you check if MarinaraPrime is actually Fake P? :)

...MarinaraPrime...

Oops... sorry... typo... a bit hungry.

….I am not sure though.

Only HARM and Patrick can tell... (and God too)

My brain has just been “bubble-locked” recently.

Watch out, TWIT. Having bubbles in the brain can be a symptom of mad cow disease.

You did that typo on purpose P……

Prove that.

Sometimes I have thought that Fake P’s writing style sounded feminine, (in an intangible sort of way.)

I felt that too... although there is nothing negative about it. MarinaraPrime did not take any existing screen name though.

BTW, I have created a new thread. We are past the "standard" 200 comments mark.