patrick.net

"by severely punishing anyone hiring illegal immigrants. Punishing illegal immigrants would be ineffective, expensive, and lead to unnecessary abuse. Stem the demand and the supply will eventually go home."

I think it should be a crime to hire as well, but I disagree with the notion that we need to enforce the law for the government. It is the federal government's job to secure the border. I should not have to do a background check on a gardener who is an independent contractor. It is only a way to avoid political fallout that our spineless Congress tries to push the burden of enforcement to businesses because they don't want to anger the Mexican voting blocks. If someone is walking around in this country they have a right to be presumed to be legal, if they do something that causes the discovery of their illegal status they should go to jail.

If someone is walking around in this country they have a right to be presumed to be legal, if they do something that causes the discovery of their illegal status they should go to jail.

That was the idea. But that encouraged illegal entries and overstays. Everyone should be presumed illegal until he can prove his status.

@ skibum,

That's precisely the guy I'm talkin' about!

I agree, it's doubtful most of these clowns, couples, doofusses have a clue as to what an inverted yield curve is? All they know is that their Home ATM (TM) isn't working like she used to so now they want to get rid of it.

This Spring has really been where EVERYONE has been introduced to the "bargaining phase" and we're seeing how the last of them are dealing with it. What they're finding is that this isn't like trading in a car with a little negative equity where the deficiency is rolled over the next 60 payments!

Malcolm,

I don't care to pay $1,000/yr more in taxes in fence/prison building to achieve the same effect of having you check your gardener for valid immigration papers. Scared of fines - garden yourself or hire a contractor who check immigration status of his/her employees.

No, I am not the green card police. It is the federal government's job to secure the border. If you don't want to pay for it then vote for politicians who will enforce the laws instead of outsourcing the government's responsibility to someone else.

Astrid have you ever hired someone like a plumber or a mover, or a gardener?

BTW the only gardener I have hired was a white guy who used to be my neighbor. I suppose since he wasn't brown it was ok with you that I didn't verify his green card. I mean really, he could have been lying about growing up in Michigan, and living in the same house since the 60's.

"That was the idea. But that encouraged illegal entries and overstays. Everyone should be presumed illegal until he can prove his status. "

You consider yourself a libertarian but you want to live in a police state? Did you ever hear of the 4th amendment?
I don't like it when people throw around the term Naziism but Peter, I worry that that kind of philosophy leads to us (the good white guys) living as preferred citizens because no one ever questions our heritage, and then the second class (the brown hispanics) constantly having to show us their papers. I don't particulary relish that as an ideal society. I'm not willing to subject legal residents and citizens to that type of lifestyle.

The term 'proving their innocence' doesn't bother you?

The term ‘proving their innocence’ doesn’t bother you?

Many jobs require an I-9, which is essentially a type of verification anyway. Also, I believe the current law requires all non-citizens to carry proof of legal status at all times.

Again, I am not a lawyer.

You consider yourself a libertarian but you want to live in a police state?

I am also a worst-case scenario type of person.

My libertarian side thinks that there should be no border. My practical side tells me that for everything to keep working, there needs to be enforcement at least for now.

If we cannot do interior enforcement, all future illegals will enter as legal tourists. Border agents cannot definitively tell whether the incoming "non-immigrants" with overstay and become part of the underground population.

I do not like police states either. What should we do?

BTW, I am not white.

Many jobs require an I-9, which is essentially a type of verification anyway.

This is one of those things that sounds good but is problematic. You and I both know (me from first hand experience) that this just keeps honest people honest. The illegals merely use forged documents, and the law does not penalize employers (even if they should have known). It is just one of those formality, let's throw paperwork at the problem.

I proposed an alternative for interior enforcement, most posts in response complain about the high costs. So basically it is a problem we don't really want to tackle, we just talk tough but when it comes time to actually open the pocketbook all of a sudden there are bigger law enforcement issues to tackle, like a jaywalking sting in downtown San Diego. The illegals who I would jail would eventually end up in jail for other crimes, not only is my policy a deterent but it is also preventative.

BTW, I AM white, and can attest first hand that I enjoy the special treatment like never being looked at funny in a store, having police look away from me when I look at them. I have worked with Mexicans and blacks who were just as honest as me who live with constant harrasment when they venture in to the white areas. Mexicans avoid certain malls in San Diego because of the stares they get. Enough white people in WWII didn't have a problem establishing classes which led to some pretty horrific stuff.

Malcolm Says:

BTW, I AM white...I have worked with Mexicans and blacks who were just as honest as me who live with constant harrasment when they venture in to the white areas. Mexicans avoid certain malls in San Diego because of the stares they get. Enough white people in WWII didn’t have a problem establishing classes which led to some pretty horrific stuff.
_____

That's unfortunate.

Enough "white people" from America in WWII saved millions of people from death in Nazi and Japanese concentration camps, and basically liberated half the world from sure death and tyranny. But that probably doesn't mean sh-t to you.

Try being a white person walking into certain parts of Los Angeles any time of the day. If you're not Black or or Mexican, you'll be lucky to get out of the neigborhood with half your ass intact.

You sound like a delusional, liberal whiner. Be a little more balanced and not so self-hating and neurotically filled with false liberal feeling of guilt for "social injustices" you never, and I never, committed.

Malcolm doesn't sound like a liberal whiner, more like one of those conservatives who only cares about his pet issues and screw everyone else on the rest. He can't be bothered to verify the legal status of people he hires but would like to keep illegal immigration in check, so we're back to punishing taxes for everybody and crappy enforcement via the second or third best solution -- incidentally a solution that encourages police/employer abuse against fairly desperate people.

But I guess social responsibility only extend to not bugging Malcolm from hiring gardeners and plumbers without checking legal status. (In any case, I wouldn't hire a plumber or electrician unless they're bonded and properly trained - I would check for qualifications even if there was no legal obligation to do so.)

Don't be too hard on Malcolm. Liberty IS important and we must remain vigilant.

However, it is also important to seek a feasible solution. The combination of guest worker program and strong enforcement seems like one.

Mass deportation is not a wrong option, but it is politically unacceptable, so it is useless.

Peter P asked ...Also, I believe the current law requires all non-citizens to carry proof of legal status at all times."

This is true ... it is the law that you must present legal ID citizen an non citizen allike when asked by a peace officer or officer of the law. If you have no ID you can be arrested. Im sure glad the law lilke this is on the books. Its been around for a very long time.

Peter P asked ...Also, I believe the current law requires all non-citizens to carry proof of legal status at all times."

This is true ... it is the law that you must present legal ID citizen an non citizen allike when asked by a peace officer or officer of the law. If you have no ID you can be arrested. Im sure glad the law lilke this is on the books. Its been around for a very long time.

No, I don't think so Space Ace. As hard as he has tried, Bush has not yet completely repealed the 4th Amendment, though it is practically a dead letter at this point.

There is no way that a peace officer can demand ID from a citizen who is not breaking any laws, or under suspicion of breaking any laws. Of course, as a practical manner, a cop can always lie and claim that you looked like a suspect. In that case, you probably have to "prove" your innocence and produce ID or spend the night in jail.

This is true … it is the law that you must present legal ID citizen an non citizen allike when asked by a peace officer or officer of the law. If you have no ID you can be arrested. Im sure glad the law lilke this is on the books. Its been around for a very long time.

This is actually not true. It is the law that you must answer the question 'who are you' (recent supreme court case) but not that you have to carry ID around. That is not the law. When driving you must carry a driver's license and present it to a peace officer if asked.

"Enough “white people” from America in WWII saved millions of people from death in Nazi and Japanese concentration camps, and basically liberated half the world from sure death and tyranny. But that probably doesn’t mean sh-t to you."

Yeah, and Nazi POWs brought back during the war had more freedoms to go into businesses and theaters than American blacks did.
Michael, why don't you try relating to how others have it and maybe you won't look like such a dork.

He can’t be bothered to verify the legal status of people he hires but would like to keep illegal immigration in check, so we’re back to punishing taxes for everybody and crappy enforcement via the second or third best solution — incidentally a solution that encourages police/employer abuse against fairly desperate people.

You're just trying to portray me to your convenience without understanding anything I say. It is your notion of living in a police state that creates the crappy environment. I'd rather have them stay than to see checkpoints, and even more class separation. You don't mind the cheap produce, you just want to pretend you are passionate about a popular issue. Big deal.

"Be a little more balanced and not so self-hating and neurotically filled with false liberal feeling of guilt for “social injustices” you never, and I never, committed."

People like you continually comit social injustices.

commit sp