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WillyWanker saysNo, you are proof of why your parents should not have been allowed to reproduce. Abortion would have been a blessing for you.I don’t know if your retardation was caused because your mother and father are brother and sister or because your father banged your head against the headboard each night in lieu of bedtime stories~~~regardless your condition would make you an ideal candidate for euthanasia. Just think of it as doing the world a favor, asswipe. As far as I am concerned, you can go and sit on 0bama’s flag pole and ‘advise’ him on policy while gyrating lewdly. Just don’t assume I care about your past, present or future. But thanks for sharing.This is why cousins shouldn’t marry.
pkowen saysFunny how pointing out 0bama's Mullato heritage has riled you into a frenzy. The fact that his mother was white is something you just can't handle. BitterMuch?I thought this was a housing forum …No, it’s obviously the white supremacist forum.
Your long paragraph talks about how slow banks are, yet you find it unreasonable that they may take years to unload foreclosures if they are flooded with them.Because I am debating against the argument for reason for delay (not the outcome). Initially you alluded to point that bank would hold properties because they don't want to sell them (to keep inventory artificially lower). I am saying that it is not that they want to, but they have to - because most likely they don't have infrastructure to unload faster. In addition, moratoriums are slowing down foreclosures (hence repossessed properties coming back to market in slower rate). camping says
As you said, they may have to stagger properties as well. Well, if they have 5 in one area and each takes 1 month to sell, then you have a delay of 5 months for the last one, no? Again, if there is a flood of foreclosures, they will stagger them over a longer period of time, which could take several years.You have to ask yourself, why there is staggering? Because there are there are already too many foreclosed properties in the market, and some of them from very same bank. And if there are too many in market, that defeats your initial argument that banks are intentionally not listing foreclosed homes in market. I don't think anybody would care (except bank itself) if certain foreclosed properties are taking one year to come to market. You have to see how many foreclosed properties are already in market. Rapid inventory will depress the home value in faster rate, and slow increase of foreclosed properties will do it in slower rate. That's the only difference. In the end, what matters is the market trend. So far it's only downwards and no sign of going upward.
n short, it was related to how everyone thinks we’re in the crapper, jobs are being lost left and right, yet there are still a decent number of sales going on. If/when the economy picks up, I would think sales would pick up even more. We’ve only spent like $60B of the $800B+ of the stimulus package and there may be second stimulus package.First, just sale volume (and nothing else) is not a good metric to gauge market. Even in worst housing market, there will be certain amount of sales. You have to look at the underlying factors for sales. In 2009 32% sale volume is driven by foreclosure sale. What was the number in 2003? It was definitely not 32%. In fact if there are more foreclosed homes in market, there will be even higher volume sale - probably even higher than 2004/2005 numbers. It does not demonstrate that health of the market is positive. BTW, in 2002-2003 Bay Area was indeed in bad shape. Unemployment in hitech sectors were pretty high. So today's scenario is not exactly same, but not all that different either. However, people's mentality was lot different. In 2003 people used to consider real estate is a safe investment - after losing money on stocks and evaporating stock options. So people were willing to buy house, even if they were expensive. But today not many people think same way. Today's volume of sale driven by different mentality - opportunity to grab foreclosed properties in cheaper price (at least cheaper than two years back).
Most of what you said contradicts itself. The banks don’t have the means to unload foreclosures, but the market has too many foreclosures, but they are staggering their foreclosures, and they aren’t doing it to keep inventory lower, yet rapid inventory will depress home values faster.It is not contradiction, but the complexity of the current situation. - Yes, banks don't have means to unload foreclosures in faster rate. - Yes, market has too many foreclosures. - Yes, they are staggering their foreclosures. - Yes, they are not doing it to keep inventory lower. - Yes, rapid inventory will depress home value faster. It's the complexity of current housing market. And I don't think anybody can describe it with simple one liner. So, where is the contradiction?
y current view (changes from time to time) is that a slow drop in home values will be offset by inflation and higher mortgage rates to the point where buying in the near future if you can get a deal may be a better option than waiting until 2012.Any given day I would prefer higher interest rate + smaller principal than lower interest rate + bigger principal. Because in later case, the risk is much lower - especially in this volatile time.
camping saysI agree smaller principal + higher rate is much preferred. But you may not get that. With a slow drop you may only get slightly lower principal and much higher rate. My concern: $700k house now w/ 5.5% rate versus 2012, $650k w/ 8% rate.y current view (changes from time to time) is that a slow drop in home values will be offset by inflation and higher mortgage rates to the point where buying in the near future if you can get a deal may be a better option than waiting until 2012.Any given day I would prefer higher interest rate + smaller principal than lower interest rate + bigger principal. Because in later case, the risk is much lower - especially in this volatile time.
My concern: $700k house now w/ 5.5% rate versus 2012, $650k w/ 8% rate.The above statement defies the long term trend of housing market. When interest rate goes up, home value adjusts accordingly. The whole issue boils down to affordability - how much mortgage people can pay per month.
camping saysNot true: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqrguz/housingbubble/My concern: $700k house now w/ 5.5% rate versus 2012, $650k w/ 8% rate.The above statement defies the long term trend of housing market. When interest rate goes up, home value adjusts accordingly. The whole issue boils down to affordability - how much mortgage people can pay per month.
If they don’t have the means to unload foreclosures, then how does the market have too many foreclosures? They got there somehow.LOL! There could many many many reasons for too many foreclosures. Let me try to think one of them - they are not selling? ;) In redfin I can show property where bank is reducing price $25K every month for last six months. camping says
If they are staggering foreclosures, then they are doing it to keep inventory lower (avoid competing with themselves) to avoid depressing home values.Effect of staggering is lower inventory than it is supposed to be. But basic purpose of staggering is to avoid having similar properties from bank in same neighborhood (not lowering the inventory). camping says
Similarly, if they know rapid inventory will depress home values, how can you say they are not doing it to keep inventory lower?It boils down to what they want to do with foreclosed home. From bank's point of view, a foreclosed home is trapped money which they cannot invest anywhere else (lost opportunity). Time goes by, they lose the opportunities to do so. In addition, the foreclosed inventory is not owned by one bank that they can control the whole market. There is always multiple banks competing with each other. So there is always a rat race - a typical behavior of market.
Not true: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqrguz/housingbubble/How exactly the above chart draws relation between interest rate and home value? Yes, interest rate factors into inflation, but not always. You should compare above chart with interest rate chart. Couple of things to note - Sometimes home value peaked (in early 80s and late 80s) while interest rate started climbing up. My conclusion is that it is the similar perception, as you are saying now ("buy it before interest rate goes up"), that drove the price up, only to fall farther down (and fall was spectacular in late 80s SF bay area). - Although sometime interest rate was lower (especially mid 90s), home value did not increase accordingly. My guess is that it is related to median income.
Maybe the President of ZipRealty has ulterior motives for saying this, but if it is true, it seems to contradict your points.Well, I never doubted about ulterior motives of people from real estate industry. :) And I can't count enough how many times I disagreed with them.
Yes, and median income is generally related to inflation.Again, not all the time. In last 10 years median income did not increase (in real term or actual dollar value), although 2005-2008 inflation was pretty high. Same argument goes for early 80s. median income chart Inflation charts Because there are other factors like GDP. In addition, different demographics have different curves - depending on local job growth (e.g hitech job growth in bay area in last 90s).
I thought we were talking about long term trends; now you’re picking very short periods to compare.Hmmmm, so I am assuming the decision whether to buy home now or in 2012 (different is only three years) is got to be based on 30 year long term trend. I would recommend you to look at all the small/large bumps in interest rate chart and check how they affect home value.
camping saysI think you should do the same. Historically, when mortgage rates were high, home values went up with the exception of the past few years. I would imagine you agree house prices generally track inflation. Interest rates are higher with higher inflation (generally). Therefore, when inflation is high, mortgage rates are high, and house prices go up.I thought we were talking about long term trends; now you’re picking very short periods to compare.Hmmmm, so I am assuming the decision whether to buy home now or in 2012 (different is only three years) is got to be based on 30 year long term trend. I would recommend you to look at all the small/large bumps in interest rate chart and check how they affect home value.
I think you should do the same. Historically, when mortgage rates were high, home values went up with the exception of the past few years. I would imagine you agree house prices generally track inflation. Interest rates are higher with higher inflation (generally). Therefore, when inflation is high, mortgage rates are high, and house prices go up.LOL! I don't know how to answer this one. When mortgage rates were high, home value went up - that's a news to me. Past few years mortgage rates were high? I thought the whole housing bubble was created by combination of lower interest rate and ninja loans.
camping saysYou can answer it by looking at the charts. Yes, the past 8 years were an exception partially based on easy credit. What were mortgage rates like in the early 80's? What does the chart show for home prices? http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqrguz/housingbubble/I think you should do the same. Historically, when mortgage rates were high, home values went up with the exception of the past few years. I would imagine you agree house prices generally track inflation. Interest rates are higher with higher inflation (generally). Therefore, when inflation is high, mortgage rates are high, and house prices go up.LOL! I don’t know how to answer this one. When mortgage rates were high, home value went up - that’s a news to me. Past few years mortgage rates were high? I thought the whole housing bubble was created by combination of lower interest rate and ninja loans.
What were mortgage rates like in the early 80’s? What does the chart show for home prices?If I am reading the chart correctly inflation adjusted home price dropped between 1980-1984 (from $150K to $130K). As I have explained already the price went up when interest rate started increasing (because very same psychology "buy before interest rate goes up farther"), but eventually price fell.
Where do you have your money to keep up with high inflation and liquid enough for you to buy a house when you are ready?Isn't it the very same slogan "don't get price out forever" Realtors keep saying all the time? If inflation goes up and income does not keep up in real value accordingly, home value is destined to drop in real value anyway. The whole thing boils down to affordability. If people don't have enough money to buy home in inflationary environment, home value will drop. Let me ask you a very simple question: do you think household income is going to keep up with inflation in next few years?
Tell you what. Why don’t you or Kevin or anyone (except Nixon-troll, who I am ignoring), explain what socialized medicine is, and then explain why what Ten Pound Bass is proposing (not Obama’s plan - TPBs plan) is NOT socialized medicine. And do so without irrelevant emotion.TPB's "plan" seems to be a semi-coherent rant, so I don't know what that is. If he's proposing a socialistic plan, that's fine, but that's not what anyone who matters is proposing, and is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't even know where the "communist" talk is coming from either, it sounded like more insane ranting from a bunch of people who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about.
Guy Rundle writes: Barely drawing breath after his ground-breaking Cairo speech, Barack Obama is charging into what will be one of the biggest stoushes in American politics, his plan to reform the hopeless US health system. Obama launched his campaign in a speech in Wisconsin, urging people who supported him to get behind the plan and lobby their Congress members, because “this may be our one chance to get health care reform through.†It would be difficult to over-estimate the risks associated with trying to make even the most basic changes to US health-care. It was after all the failure of Hillary Clinton’s complex plan in 1993 that did more than anything to hole the Clinton Presidency below the waterline, at least as far as being a liberal regime went. Clinton’s plan wasn’t even the dreaded “single-payer†system, the term the US Right uses as some sort of North-Korean image for what Australians would know of as Medicare — baseline state-run universal coverage supplemented by private options. Instead it was an attempt to continue to run health insurance through private providers, while explicitly mandating how much they would charge, how much they would pay out, limiting their ability to exclude people with pre-existing conditions, and so on. It was a scheme designed to please no-one — Big Health were always going to be against it, and the liberal-left wouldn’t get behind it because they were still holding out for a single-payer system, which would not — as would have the Clinton plan — flood rivers of gold into the insurance companies for stuff that could be done at knock-down prices by the state. Since then, the organized left have been pretty much beaten down in Congress, and health care in the US has become much worse. This has given Obama a great political opportunity to get real reform through — but only at the price of proposing a scheme so unthreatening to Big Health, that it will see the wisdom of acquiescing to it. Why did American health get so much worse than it was at the time of the Clinton plan, when it was already pretty dead? Deregulation between 2000-2006 was one factor — a release of the (fairly-worn) brakes that were on the insurers in terms of denying continuing care to the chronically ill, excluding pre-existing illnesses and aggressively using the bankruptcy laws to recover costs. Another has been the open-ended nature of private medical care — as new techniques and tests are introduced year-on-year, open-ended health plans are faced with spiralling costs, created by the increasing demands of patients, and the desire of GPs to bill for endless additional (and often unnecessary) services. With no qualitative and triage-based control of health-care spending, the more consumerist options will crowd out necessity. The ideal health insurance client is a member of the “worried wellâ€, paying top-hole premiums for routine services, the lions’ share of the service fees going to the insurers. The worst client is the one for whom any rational health system should be designed — the chronically ill, the suddenly desperately ill, the seriously injured etc, and health insurers spend most of their energy throwing these people off their lists. The coup de grace has been the sharp rise in unemployment in the US, which has deprived many people of their employer-based health insurance–– the auto manufacturers bail-out deal alone cuts by 50% the health care available to up to a million former car workers and their families, just as many of them are ageing. The core of Obama’s plan is what’s known as a National Health Insurance Exchange, which is a sneaky way of offering public health insurance to the 45 million Americans who don’t have any insurance whatsoever (and aren’t eligible for the below-poverty-line Medicare scheme) — and simultaneously providing subsidised matching fixed-prices schemes offered by private providers, so that no-one can scream socialism. Surrounding this are various measures such as $10 billion in grants to get nationwide electronic record-keeping up and running — US hospitals are the last places in the developed word where the faxes run hot day and night with paper records being transferred — and some real battles, such as prohibiting the exclusion of pre-existing conditions. The advantages of the scheme are all political — people are so angry with health insurers (average premiums have doubled in the last six years), terrified of bankruptcy (half of the million bankruptcies a year in the US are due to medical costs), and worried for their children’s health, that Congress members who simply roll over for their Big Health campaign donors will find themselves the target of grassroots attack in upcoming party primaries for the 2010 elections. The disadvantage is that it’s a monstrously expensive way to achieve what single-payer cover does for half the cost, and twice the result — provide universal optimum health. But if Obama can get this, and if the 2010 Senate vote gives an enhanced Democratic majority, then there is a bridgehead from which non-pauper public health cover can be expanded, thus denying the Right the chance to make a huge fight over it, and gradually converting the American people to the idea that public health provision is not socialism. And also, if it succeeds, proving once again that the road of recent American political history is littered with the bones of those who underestimated Barack Hussein Obama. If it fails? We may find out — health insurers here are starting to make noises about unaffordable Medicare and transitioning to a US health system. So remember to choose which leg you’d like to save if they both get infected, because your plan may not cover both.
WillyWanker says--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some Guy Joined: January 10th, 2008 Posts: 4 Comments: 207 July 22nd, 2009 at 10:48 am | top | quote | email this It’s just tearing you guys up that a BLACK MAN became president, isn’t it? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excuse me, but it was YOU who made the proclamation that some here could not stand having an 'black man' for president. I just corrected your mistake. YOU brought up the race card. Because you can't defend your own positions you feel a need to call anyone who disagrees with you a racist. Just like your messiah in the White House, you can't help yourself but embrace 'race issues' to distort an argument. Hussein is having a tough time with his ObamaCare so he sticks his snout into a police issue and calls police officers 'stupid' and then he attempts to backtrack when he sees that the words he chose may have carried more weight than he had originally intended. 0bama needs to start 'calibrating' his words better. LOL 0bama's not afraid of starting race riots as longs as the country is distracted from the issues at hand. And you are forced to call everyone who disagrees with you a racist because you can't find other words to defend yourself. Good luck with that, asshole.The fact that his mother was white is something you just can’t handle. BitterMuch?Let’s see: Number of times you’ve brought it up: 3 Number of times I’ve brought it up: 0 Yeah, *I’m* the one who can’t handle it. Suuure…..
camping saysPlus, the past 8 years were somewhat of an oddity with free credit that caused inflation without the need for wage increases.Yes, and median income is generally related to inflation.Again, not all the time. In last 10 years median income did not increase (in real term or actual dollar value), although 2005-2008 inflation was pretty high. Same argument goes for early 80s. median income chart Inflation charts Because there are other factors like GDP. In addition, different demographics have different curves - depending on local job growth (e.g hitech job growth in bay area in last 90s).
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