patrick.net

@interpretame

So your conclusion is that Christ is not real. Presumably, that is the excuse you use to not answer the question. All people, including you, are entitled to their religious beliefs. So, how about I rephrase the question to avoid the atheistic approach to answering.

Care to guess how God would judge any Christian of the faith when they tell him: “I was against those welfare programs that helped the poor get food and shelter because there were a few abusing the programs.”

Ryan says

You still did not answer the question. Care to guess how God will judge you when you tell him: “I was against those welfare programs that helped the poor get food and shelter because there were a few abusing the programs.”

You are assuming that only a few abuse the programs and that the majority of welfare recipients truly qualify. I am assuming that the thought of an easy paycheck is much to tempting to those content to live in squaller and that it is the minority of welfare users that qualify.

Aside from that, I pretty much agree with interpretame on his responses to you.

@socialfireball

That a small amount of abuse goes on in welfare programs is not an assumption. Please read my prior postings where I pointed out the amount of welfare fraud in 2007 in one state.

@interpretame

So this is how you think the conversation would go.

God: We are here for your judgment. Tell me why have you not supported welfare programs to help the poor get food and shelter?

Interpretame: I could not support programs giving aid to the poor because there were those who would abuse those programs.

God: Did I not tell you, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Interpretame: Yes, you did. I even wrote it in a post as to what you would say to me.

God: So, if you knew that wanting to keep more and more money (tax money or otherwise) for yourself was not what I wanted and that I wanted you to help the poor get food and shelter, then I ask again why did you not support programs to give poor food and shelter with your tax money?

Interpretame: ??????
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He is a forgiving God. I beseech thee, ask his forgiveness. Tell him, before all of us, now how you would support welfare programs that aid the poor in obtaining food and shelter.

@Bap33

If you consider being a follower of Christ's teachings a mental illness, I gladly suffer your barbs and curses. Since Christ suffered crucifixion to save my soul, the least I can do is suffer your taunts and still try to save your soul.

The full passage of Mark 11 that you quote from is: "And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

You complain about the "forced transfer of wealth." If indeed the government were forcing the transfer of wealth, you should render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and have more concern for what you are rendering unto God.

However, in a demcracy (even a republic), we are all a small part of the Ceasar and give some direction as to what Ceasar does with what belongs to Ceasar. In a government "of the people, by the people, for the people," we are all family, friends, or neighbors. Unlike the time of Christ where Ceasar was one man heading the government, we all now have a say in the government by voting and making our views known to our representatives.

Followers of Christ know that they are to follow Jesus' teachings in every aspect of thier lives. Thus, followers of Christ help the poor with food and shelter at the Church AND, by way of their vote and communication with their representatives, help the poor with food and shelter through their government.

Your business is to follow the teachings of Christ as best you can (assuming you are Christian). Here is Mark 12: Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?” Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

You are not to love your neighbor only when they come to seek help, but you are to love them as you love yourself. You should not fail Christ simply because there are others who have. Saying others have failed in their personal responsibility to Christ is no excuse for you to fail in yours.

Hence, supporting welfare programs for the poor to obtain food and shelter despite the fact there are a few who abuse the programs is fulfilling your obligation to Christ, despite the fact that the "abusers" are failing in their obligations to Christ.

P.S. I posted the Alaskan numbers for welfare fraud complaints, investigations, and convictions previously.

Section 8'er lazy butts are just starting to get the foot in the butt they deserve. If I'd have been 1/10th as lazy as these people my dad would have beaten my butt blue and put a shovel in my hand. Before any of you try to defend these lazy butts, please tell me how many years you spent trying to get them to work. I spent 4 years and nearly $80,000. Basically, anyone on government handouts is there because they are too lazy to work. Any one who tries to get them to work will lose their life savings like I did. Plain and simple.

The truth is like someone said above, terminate Section 8 tomorrow and by the end of the year factories and all sorts of enterprises will open in the USA. Over 40M people not including old SS and gov workers live wholly or at least partly on these lazy people programs. Imagine mobilizing 40M workers to work in our factories at a fair wage!!!

BTW, government gives away free houses to these lazy butts too. The message to our teens is clear: don't work. You can live better on handouts. (until it rots your soul and work ethic of course).

Bap33,

I retired from the AF in 1995, and during the rest of that decade I acquired 4 rentals houses to add to the one I had from a previous assignment (my former residence). None were slums, I would be proud to live in any of them. (They were comparable to the homes in Atwater that Castle officers lived in). I sold all but one as the tenants moved out during the years 2003-2005, since I was sure that home prices were about to crash, and the easy credit made good tenants hard to find. Everyone wanted to buy.

I have two points to make:

First of all, landlording ain't an easy way to riches. Even in the 90s, rents did not cover costs. The idea was that after 30 years of landlording, I could retire on the proceeds from paid off homes. One must work elsewhere in the meantime to pay the upkeep. It ain't an "investment" either, more like a part time job.

Secondly, I and others I knew, refused to accept Section 8. When I first got inquiries about Sec 8, I replied that my homes may be too upscale to qualify, but was quickly corrected. I did some checking, and found out indeed that Section 8 will provide enough "rent" to put a welfare mom with 4 kids into a newer 2,000+ sq foot 4 bed 2.5 bath 2 car home in a nice area. I still did not want to rent to Section 8, as the neighbors around my houses were working folk who took proud care of thier homes, and I did not want to drop among them a welfare mom who would be happy to leave the yard unkempt with a broken tricycle or two stewn about.

The "problem" at that time was not too few Section 8 "vouchers," the problem was not enough landlords wanted to rent Sec 8. There were plenty of people who could get Sec 8 if they could find a willing landlord.

I did know one retired Colonel who "specialized" in Sec 8. He bought up many very old 1,000 sqft ranchers and similar, did the minimum to them , and rented them Sec 8 out for about 30% above what well kept homes of that size/location would go for. Although his business was cash flow profitable, I want no part of it. He was a bastard with the correct temperment to deal with the "customer." I know some of his tenants were constantly asking landlords of nicer home to take Sec 8, since they were looking to trade up. The ones who came to me were all single moms who did not work.

Now, I have noticed a few Gospel folk expousing how Jesus would like those who support Section 8. That is amusing, as you are borrowing from the "Humanist" philosophy that one not need give charity himself if he votes "compassionately." I think your diety would be more impressed with what you did with your own money, not with your opinion of transfer schemes. A "Christian" would fill the food bank, rent out a home or two well below market to help a family in temporary need, or hire someone who needs a job even though the employer is fully staffed. Any old athiest can support Sec 8 to relieve his guilt about his own lack of charity.

interpretame says

TenPoundASS, you goddamn MORON ..tell it to RYAN who believes in all this crap …NOT ME. Geesh to hear you tell it, even reading The Cat in the Hat would be WAAAAAaaay over your head.

Really, interpretame? You read my post that used phrases like "[you] Gospel folk," and "your diety" and put the word Christian in quotes and somehow interpreted that I was a Christian. I would say your reading skills are lacking.

From your response, I must say that my comment on voting vs giving must have been spot on concerning you.

interpretame,

That list of conflicting scriptures is most impressive. I am currently reading "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman and your list is a case in point of why I am reading the book.

Did you research this yourself? I am interested because I would like to present it to someone who believes every word in the (king james) bible as "the word of God".

@Headset

You are absolutely correct. A true follower follows in all aspects of their lives. Personally giving of their own time and money. Not only making donations to St. Jude's, but tutoring children at church, volunteering for Sacred Heart Community Service just to name a few. But, that does not alleviate the responsibility to vote "compassionately." By the same token, directing your tax money to compassionate causes does not alleviate the need to give of your own time and money directly.

If the subject of the discussion was what charitable contributions we make or should make, I'd gladly have that discussion. But, the discussion was on Section 8 and welfare programs and whether we should be supporting them.

@Bap33
As I said, I provided you with the 2007 Alaska data on welfare fraud. "In 2007, Alaska had 1059 fraud refferals, of which 664 were investigated, of which the Fraud Control Unit determined 409 to be fraudulent, of which 8 resulted in convictions with 1 plea, and 13 indictments pending. " And, as I said...few abusers.

@interpretame

You can convince religious people to change their views on how best to love thy neighbor with the use of SOUND research, logical discourse, critical thinking, facts and reason. You will not convince them to deny their religion, but rather how to go about putting their religion into practice in their daily lives.

But notice my emphasis on soundness. You will not convince any good Christian that taking a program providing food and shelter for the poor is good no matter how much you try to rationalize it by saying there are a few people who abuse it. Jesus proved himself to be a critical thinker and capable of logical discourse. That is why I put passages rather than selective quotes out of context. When you hear the quote "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's," by reading the passage and understanding how certain people were looking to entrap Jesus into the "either or" trap. You also see that he is able to avoid logic traps with his answers.

We'll continue to pray for your soul.

Tenpoundbass says

interpretame you goddamn Simpleton, the bible is a book ghost written by many Authors, Each with his own spin and take on the subject. Geesh to hear you tell it, God wrote it on a Rum binge.

Each time someone "transcribed" the bible, it was changed. There were no photocopiers, etc. Hell, it could have been a piece of fiction to start.

I believe in being a good person. But I don't believe that a bunch of people sitting around proving that they are holier than someone else is a worthwhile endeavor. If there's a hell, it'll certainly be more interesting than the heaven many people are peddling.

@Bap33

I see. You recognize your error without stating so. You recognize that, at least in Alaska 2007 and assuming I have not posted a lie, there are few abusing welfare. So, your new tactic is to try to imply that Alaska must be an anomaly among the 50 States. I am guessing you would say so outright, but you are concerned about falling into a trap because I started with the alphabetically first State in the Union. Now, you want access to my research to try to discredit it. Interesting tactics. But, let's start here:

Assuming my 2007 information on Alaska's welfare fraud is correct, will you now come out and say:
I have proven very few welfare abusers for Alaska.

@Bap33

I have faith in Jesus and his teachings, but I am far from a blind zealot. I understand those who do not wish to commit themselves to a faith or a position. However, I also understand that I do not have to indulge them. Facts are facts whether they are assumed or not. Thus far, you have not called me a deceiver. And, hopefully you recognize I have no need to deceive. Hence, I ask you to assume the facts, I know to be as true as any facts can be, to be true and give your conclusion.

When you give your conclusion, you will have taken a verifiable position to all in this posting. One that you can recant only by disproving the facts given to you. Once I provide you (and all others) the source, others may be able to weasel their way around the facts provided, but you will not unless you can disprove the source. I am confident you will not be able to do so. So confident that I need not hide the door to my Father's house, but invite you in.

What say you? Assuming my 2007 information on Alaska’s welfare fraud is correct, will you now come out and say:
I have proven very few welfare abusers for Alaska.

(P.S. I note you do not demand the same level of "facts" from Tenpoundbass that you do from me when you tell him..."a very very good point." And, he is using nothing but probability in his own estimate.)

Yea, life is NOT like a box of chocolates, where all the flavors are provided to you.

(I've been waiting for the opportunity to use that one...)

Ellie's got gumption when people can't see the forest. Hanks for your input.

Yes, Bap.

You are one huge contradiction.

You tell others that they are lazy for not Googling:

"You are wrong, and you are lazy — or you could have found all of the info I shared without any trouble with a very simple Google using “Section 8 HUD income limits”.

Yet now, when you exhibit gross slothfulness, you chalk it up to a need to not assume anything.

One of the greatest lessons that Jesus tried to teach was that hypocrisy is disgusting, and he exhibited his greatest anger toward this. Imho.

I would love to see Section 8 housing discontinued. All it does is increas my taxes to support bloated real estate prices.

How do you find out how many section 8 rentals there are in a particular area?

StillLooking: Most counties have an online database to search for Section 8 rentals. Look for "Housing Authority" on the County's home page.

LowlySmartRenter says

StillLooking: Most counties have an online database to search for Section 8 rentals. Look for “Housing Authority” on the County’s home page.

I could only find what is available. I want to know how much section 8 there is. I would really like to know if particular properties are section 8.